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-   -   EpDis: Day Of The Dead (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=9472)

deaded May 3rd 15 11:40

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 451497)
...and b) there is no way in hell it would have even crossed his mind to leave Sheridan to die, no matter how jealous he was that simply was not in his character.

EXACTLY

deaded May 3rd 15 11:53

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451504)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 451502)
What nobody's mentioned yet is that Delenn kind of encouraged him to hope for more even after she was with John. Meeting him in Downbelow and asking him to run a covert operation was one thing but then touching him and wanting to keep him after just to talk. She *knew* that he was in love with her but did nothing at all to discourage him. It was easy for him to convince himself that there might be hope and that if John weren't there, Delenn might well turn to him.

Jan

Wow, what?
Talk about things I don't pick up on! :o

This honestly would never in a million years have occurred to me! Do you mean she purposefully kept him on the hook for some reason or other, or that maybe she could have had some interest in him, if not for Sheridan? In the way Delenn treats Lennier, I don't see anything but mentor-acolyte relationship .. That is to say, I do see them becoming close, which seems kind of unavoidable under the circumstances, but I don't see her encouraging him in his romantic interest for her, at all.

Excellent insight on Jan's part. This is exactly what women do. They want the rough and tough powerful guy but they also want the sensitive guy to still be on their chain. I've seen it many times. I've been on the chain. I remember back in the '70s we had a saying; "Nice guys don't get laid." The cheerleader still loves to be with the quarterback but she also wants the nerd to help her with her homework and wash her car. In my mind I saw Delenn above that but no, she's a chick.

We used to call it the "Double X disease." But I'm not even sure if Minbari have DNA.

SHAME on Delenn, but yeah. Great point Jan!

Jan May 3rd 15 16:00

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deaded (Post 451510)
Excellent insight on Jan's part. This is exactly what women do. They want the rough and tough powerful guy but they also want the sensitive guy to still be on their chain. I've seen it many times. I've been on the chain. I remember back in the '70s we had a saying; "Nice guys don't get laid." The cheerleader still loves to be with the quarterback but she also wants the nerd to help her with her homework and wash her car. In my mind I saw Delenn above that but no, she's a chick.

We used to call it the "Double X disease." But I'm not even sure if Minbari have DNA.

SHAME on Delenn, but yeah. Great point Jan!

Wow, that was certainly unexpected. And quite unwelcome. I never expected or thought it likely that a comment about a fictional character would unleash such a vitriolic reaction against women. How...distasteful.

For pete's sake, Delenn underwent an enormous transformation and was shunned by almost everyone she knew. Only one person near to her knew her involvement in the E/M war. Her conscience caused her to be responsible for breaking the backbone of Minbari society. Is it any wonder she wanted her dearest friend close to her?? No, she very much shouldn't have done anything at all to encourage him once she realized his love for her but it's certainly understandable and hardly worthy of a simplistic and misogynist "This is exactly what women do." Any man would have probably done the same. Or don't they get lonely?

That said, and not to drag the thread too far off track, the wonderful thing about the B5 characters is that they're *human*, no matter how alien. Sheridan's unconsciously prejudiced against Lyta due to her not being in the military *and* being a telepath. Franklin's a bit of a shallow womanizer when not obsessed with his work as a doctor. Ivanova's so repressed she might shatter. G'Kar's anger almost destroyed him. Londo's misguided ambition almost tore his planet apart. Marcus was a martyrdom looking for a place to die. Need I go on?

Jan

Lennier's Tears May 3rd 15 17:28

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deaded (Post 451510)

Excellent insight on Jan's part. This is exactly what women do. They want the rough and tough powerful guy but they also want the sensitive guy to still be on their chain. I've seen it many times. I've been on the chain. I remember back in the '70s we had a saying; "Nice guys don't get laid." The cheerleader still loves to be with the quarterback but she also wants the nerd to help her with her homework and wash her car. In my mind I saw Delenn above that but no, she's a chick.

We used to call it the "Double X disease." But I'm not even sure if Minbari have DNA.

SHAME on Delenn, but yeah. Great point Jan!

I can't tell if this is sarcasm, but either way that's a VERY uncomfortable read. It's generally a good idea to not make jokes that are indistinguishable from your run-of-the-mill, regular misogyny (or any other hateful speech), especially on a public forum like this, where you don't know the people who are reading your words. At least two of us here can't tell whether that was misogyny or an attempt to mock misogyny, so it just added to the general misogynist background noise of the internet.

Just a few quick points for anyone taking that stuff seriously:
  • women are human beings
  • not all women are cheerleaders
  • cheerleaders are individuals, with distinct personalities
  • Not all nerds are male
  • This type of generalization makes no sense. If you wouldn't conclude that "all men are X" based on one asshole screwing you over, why would you conclude that "all women are X" based on one asshole screwing you over?

I come here to talk about my favorite sci fi show, not to debate whether women are people. I can go do that pretty much anywhere else, even though that clearly is a fact that shouldn't ever be up for debate.

deaded May 3rd 15 21:22

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Sorry about the sarcasm

Lennier's Tears May 6th 15 00:28

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 451505)
Next time you watch 'Meditations on the Abyss', watch the scene between Delenn and Lennier when she assigns him his mission. Delenn breaks the finger of they guy threatening her and Lennier finishes the fight. He reminds her that he's sworn to never leave her and he'll be at her side no matter the cost. Then there's the talk about how it was necessary to keep things from Sheridan and Lennier asks Delenn what she wants of him and there's a spark of wild hope there until she tells him it's a mission and he bows his head to get his composure. Delenn strokes his cheek when she asks about the scar on his face. When he wants to go to the White Star, she wants him to stay because she hasn't seen him for so long. and holds his chin when she tells him she could never think of him betraying the Anla'shok.

I just got to that episode and I think I understand what you're getting at ... But, I'll take my comments to the appropriate thread :)


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