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-   -   EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=9427)

vacantlook November 22nd 06 02:08

EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for A Tragedy Of Telepaths
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for A Tragedy Of Telepaths

vacantlook November 22nd 06 02:14

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
I love the stuff with Na'Toth, as she's a character, that as long as performed by Ms Brown, I really enjoy. The political stuff between Sheridan and the Drazi and Brakiri ambassadors is decent. I think I started to feel too weighted down by the telepath stuff here though. And the episode title is, in my opinion only of course, one of the lamest titles I've encountered.

GKarsEye November 22nd 06 14:40

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
This is the ep where we find out "ah, yes, the emperor also liked to play this game." Heh-heh.

I loved the whole rescue of NaToth.

Lousy_Dodgers November 23rd 06 07:26

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
The whole part about not seeing what is inappropriate sounds oddly familiar

*cough*Foley*cough*

excuse me

Shaal Mayan December 5th 06 17:13

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
Good for seeing Natoth again.

RW7427 December 6th 06 03:28

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
Yeah, and seeing JCB play her. She made for an awesome Na'Toth! ;)

Shaal Mayan December 7th 06 11:07

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
Quote:

Yeah, and seeing JCB play her. She made for an awesome Na'Toth!


That's what I meant it was good seeing both the character and the actress.

Galahad December 7th 06 11:37

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
The initials are confusing me... are we talking about the actress or a big yellow digger? :-P

GaribaldisHair December 7th 06 14:00

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
Quote:

The initials are confusing me... are we talking about the actress or a big yellow digger? :-P

[kosh]

YES

[/kosh]

Old one, I know, but I just couldn't resist ... :)

Galahad December 7th 06 14:23

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
Hmmm but in that context, Kosh was responding by acknowledging to Sinclair's oppenness to his cryptic statement (that it wasn't about which species would survive a conflict... but that unless both changed their ways, they would be continuing on a path towards mutual annihilation).

So are you saying that Julie Caitlin Brown is built like a digger?

I'm not sure how she'd take that...

Elipsis April 7th 08 20:14

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
This episode reminds us of how fragile the relationship between G'Kar and Londo still is. And while the telepath bit isn't as interesting, its not bad. Bester's appearance kicks this up from a B- to a B.

Estelyn February 4th 11 20:56

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
I like the way Lochley's log is used as bookends in this episode. Since her actions tend to be tough, it's good to see that she is really concerned about what takes place. She's also willing to go to whatever ends are needed in an attempt to solve the problem peacefully. The tragedy is watching the inevitable happen.

Intereating that Bester calls the telepaths "my people" even though he is attacked by them.

It is good to see (the real) Na'Toth again! What a great idea to bring her back this way. And spoo actually fulfills a plot purpose as the clue to her imprisonment. Londo tells a fascinating story about orders that have been given and never countermanded. He also devises a very clever plan to rescue her and conceal the evidence thereof from all others.

Poor Sheridan - trying to hold everything together and feeling that it's all falling apart. His task is more than one person can handle.

Lennier's Tears May 3rd 15 00:03

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
It IS great to see Na'Toth again. It was kind of weird for that character to just disappear, never to be mentioned again, even in all the chaos of the Narn-Centauri war. It is sort of funny how Londo feels the need to explain, with fairly long and detailed anecdotes, how stuff works around the palace, and how orders just sort of stick forever, while Na'Toth is just sitting there, shackled.

I agree with Estelyn that Lochley is great in this, and it works well having her logs at the beginning and end. Still, I have to put in the obligatory "This storyline could have been SO AMAZING with Ivanova" here. Ah well.

When I started watching this episode today I thought "Urgh, it's one of those telepath episodes", but it's really not that bad :p There isn't that much of Byron in it, and he isn't being all arrogant ... Plus, it has Bester. Episodes with Bester are always fun ... for a certain value of "fun".

I find it a bit hard to accept Byron's insistence on non-violence, when he clearly has no problems with invading other people's minds and blackmailing them. It's a type of violence, too.

I like that the Alliance is having such problems. That is to say, I feel for the people trying to hold it together, but it does seem realistic. In the real world, revolutions are never clean, and don't end in "happily ever after". I do NOT like to see the League ambassadors once again reduced to a bunch of bumbling fools. They fall for all the tricks, and our heroes have to save them/explain matters to them. I'm not too crazy about those plots, but ehh, I can deal :p

Lennier's Tears May 3rd 15 23:08

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
I forgot to mention one thing ... I know I've been posting a lot of fashion-related comments and it's a little weird .. I don't know where this is coming from, but here is another one!

That undershirt Captain Lochley is wearing in this episode ... Is that EarthForce regulation? As I recall, in previous seasons we only ever see those white shirt underneath the uniform jackets. Or is she just wearing that because she knew she was going to be crawling through some ducts that day?

I did a quick Google and only came up with this tiny picture, but you can see what I mean:
http://www.sadgeezer.com/Legacy/babylon5/tot1.jpg

Mororless May 7th 15 13:21

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451503)
It IS great to see Na'Toth again. It was kind of weird for that character to just disappear, never to be mentioned again, even in all the chaos of the Narn-Centauri war. It is sort of funny how Londo feels the need to explain, with fairly long and detailed anecdotes, how stuff works around the palace, and how orders just sort of stick forever, while Na'Toth is just sitting there, shackled.

This always stuck me as a bit of an echo of Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun where bureaucracy has grown so vast such things carry on for hundreds/thousands of years and situations like NaThoth happen without the malice behind them that might be expected, both focused somewhat on torture as well.

Quote:

I agree with Estelyn that Lochley is great in this, and it works well having her logs at the beginning and end. Still, I have to put in the obligatory "This storyline could have been SO AMAZING with Ivanova" here. Ah well.
Honestly I still tend to think that both Ivanova falling for Byron and calling in Bester would have been tough to sell well. Lyta definitely worked better as the former for me and whilst Lochley doesn't have the history with the Corps I think her being more obvious independent of Sheridan works well.

The bigger loss to the series for me was that Ivanova ontop of being a strong character really helped to make a lot of characters more personable. I spose you could argue that things becoming a bit less friendly as more of a realpolitik situation arose after the major conflicts had ended somewhat suited that.

Quote:

When I started watching this episode today I thought "Urgh, it's one of those telepath episodes", but it's really not that bad :p There isn't that much of Byron in it, and he isn't being all arrogant ... Plus, it has Bester. Episodes with Bester are always fun ... for a certain value of "fun".
My opinion tends to be that the main problem with the telepath storyline was that it didn't really have enough time devoted to it. We get to know Byron a little but besides that its really only Lyta who has much character which makes it harder for tension within that group to Even with Byron he doesn't really get enough time to be presented as being that conflicted which makes him appear much more self righteous. Something like the Minbari civil war could be compressed much more successfully because all the major players had already been very well established.

Speaking of Bester personally I think he should have become an even bigger player in season 5 right from the start. Coming from the end of season 4 I think him and the Corps plus the situation on Centauri Prime were really the main points of tension that could be carried forward. I spose the problem for JMS was that it wasn't just carry forward viewers from season 4 but also feeling he needed to give a bit of an intro to new veiwers with the shift in channels.

Quote:

I like that the Alliance is having such problems. That is to say, I feel for the people trying to hold it together, but it does seem realistic. In the real world, revolutions are never clean, and don't end in "happily ever after". I do NOT like to see the League ambassadors once again reduced to a bunch of bumbling fools. They fall for all the tricks, and our heroes have to save them/explain matters to them. I'm not too crazy about those plots, but ehh, I can deal :p
It does get a little repetitive but really none of those characters are expanded upon enough for it to get that annoying. It is IMHO key that politics and moral choices don't suddenly vanish when the big victory is won considering that B5 always played up the idea of selfless pragmatism over moral grandstanding.

Lennier's Tears May 8th 15 02:22

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
Re: Na'Toth forgotten in a Centauri cell: I think it's a perfectly fine plot, it certainly seems like something that would happen on Centauri Prime, especially within the Royal Palace. It just seemed kind of funny how Londo is going on and on about tradition, and he and G'Kar are off having this conversation while Na'Toth is just sitting there. It's also totally in character. Londo is always speechifying everything he says!

Re: Ivanova in the telepath storyline. Tough to sell well ... Well, yea, maybe. Something to do with how many of us feel about Byron, perhaps :p It would have been uncomfortable to watch, for sure. But I also think it could have been great.

Re: Telepath storyline. I think it's true that that would have been very different if we had been more involved with the characters. Byron shows up and is immediately unlikable (wel, I thought so anyway :p), and the other telepaths really don't have personalities at all. The whole Psi Corps / telepath thing is very interesting and I agree the story could have gone all kinds of ways at the end of season 4.

Re: Foolish ambassadors: I agree that the main point is clearly what happens AFTER the big victory, and how it's not going to be all happily ever after. And yes, foolish ambassadors are a convenient way to add some extra drama to the building conflict, but it gets a bit silly.

hypatia May 8th 15 05:53

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451503)

I find it a bit hard to accept Byron's insistence on non-violence, when he clearly has no problems with invading other people's minds and blackmailing them. It's a type of violence, too.

I can easily see someone raised as a high-level telepath not really seeing that, actually. He's basically been raised with a blind spot right around that kind of thinking. Outright snuffing someone's life out was shocking enough to impress him. But this kind of violence is much more subtle, perhaps he hadn't even considered it much in light of his far worse actions.

Lennier's Tears May 8th 15 16:16

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
Yea, that's a good point. And although he is fond of Shakespeare, he probably doesn't read too many mundanes on the topic of non-violence :p

hypatia May 9th 15 04:16

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
Well, he's read someone. He certainly seems to think he's on a nonviolent path, at least.

And I happen to be in the not-hating-Byron-quite-so-much category, personally. He didn't annoy me like he drives some fans absolutely nuts. I truly felt for him and his plight. Considering what happens to telepaths, I can honestly say that a bit of that attitude is understandable. They are essentially more advanced than humans, they were forcibly engineered and then cast aside, and yet they are supposed to serve willingly without any sense of self.

In short it'd suck. And having a culture benefit from your talents while simultaneously condemning you for it, well it certainly does seem a bit like Shakespeare's Shylock. Unlikable, but yet impossible to disagree with, at least on the fundamental point he's making.

Lennier's Tears May 9th 15 04:24

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
I completely sympathize with the telepaths, and as you can see in some of the other threads, I often agree with Byron. I am totally on board with his cause. I just don't like his personality. I am somewhat excessively sensitive to pretentious/arrogant behavior, and he's got a lot of that going on. Also the creepy cult-leader stuff ... Nice shirts, though! :D

Mororless May 9th 15 15:09

Re: EpDis: A Tragedy Of Telepaths
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451541)
Re: Telepath storyline. I think it's true that that would have been very different if we had been more involved with the characters. Byron shows up and is immediately unlikable (wel, I thought so anyway :p), and the other telepaths really don't have personalities at all. The whole Psi Corps / telepath thing is very interesting and I agree the story could have gone all kinds of ways at the end of season 4..

The obvious change of course would have been to have all or part of the telepath civil war in season 5 although I don't automatically think that would be needed to have Bester involved.

As you say Byron isn't really given enough time for much of a "turn", if say Garabali had only been introduced as a supporting character in a few episodes beforehand would his turn on Sheridan under Besters influence have been as successful? Personally I would have introduced him much earlier and have him develop towards what we saw in the end if that was still the intension shifting the telepath story a bit latter and having him more involved in the episodes beforehand.

If CC hadn't left and you were talking Ivanova having a romance with him I think that would make it easier to sell as well, him starting off as more of a telepath on the run.


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