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-   -   EpDis: Learning Curve (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=9342)

PillowRock October 17th 06 15:48

Re: EpDis: Learning Curve

Besides, I don't recall 'terror' being mentioned in the 'declaration of principles' that the Alliance is meant to hold so dear.

The Rangers were not talking about terror in terms of applying "terror" to the criminal.

They were talking about the "terror" that had been created in the mind of the Ranger and his need to face / confront that terror so that he would not be reacting from a phobic mindset in the future.

The important part was for him to come face-to-face with what had terrorized him so that he could have som measure of control, mostly in terms of mental control of himself, in such situations. It was more a coincidence of the circumstances of his particular incident that dictated that this involve a violent confrontation with a criminal, not some requirement of "terrorizing" violent criminals. If he had been burned in a fire, then that application of "terror" would have involved him going into or through a burning room or something similar.

Even if he had lost the fight, he still would have faced the situation with some measure of control and would likely not have as irrationally phobic of a response to similar situations going forward. That was the point, not giving "terror" to the guy who had beaten him.

puzzle October 17th 06 23:24

Re: EpDis: Learning Curve
Some additional points, after having several more moments of idle time to proceed wearing out a perfectly good keyboard:

- It seems the Ranger didn't commence with fighting that guy before he picked up the staff. I don't recall the episode well enough to remember whether anyone suggested, or didn't suggest that he pick it up. In any case, the consequence of picking up a weapon you are offered, seems pretty obvious without use of explanatory language. It's fighting.

-Bah, fear of losing a fight is natural, but the preferable way to deal with having lost a fight, is not always getting into the next one straight away. Then again, if the person who caused grief is still within reach, and is the kind of person for whom it's awfully justified to cause some grief in return, and one's healthy enough to go causing it... the proposition of "why not, let's try again, but this time if you fail, we'll handle him anyway" certainly sounds more sensible.

PillowRock October 18th 06 00:11

Re: EpDis: Learning Curve

fear of losing a fight is natural

Sure, fear is a natural, good thing.

However, there is a difference between reasonable fear that stops you from doing suicidal things ...... and the kind of irrational phobic fear that tends to be caused by a traumatic event, which blocks out the ability to think analytically and rationally. The one tends to keep you safer while the other just makes it more likely that you will get yourself (or your comrades) killed with an unreasoned response somewhere down the line.

The Rangers were practicing a form of "get right back on the horse ...." before a full blown phobia has a chance to take root.

And, he had not just "lost a fight". He had been beaten into a near coma (or was it actual short erm coma?).

RW7427 October 18th 06 02:11

Re: EpDis: Learning Curve
And remember how Delenn tells Dr. Franklin "There are higher courts Steven. Surely we will find justice in one of those."

I wonder what courts those could be. ;)

Chilli September 26th 07 12:31

Re: EpDis: Learning Curve
I do hope JMS meant part of the message of this one to be that the Rangers kind of suck.

Seriously, a force that pretends to be all about being "good", that can supersede the law at will for their petty revenge rituals? Scary shit.

Jan September 26th 07 13:45

Re: EpDis: Learning Curve
Pillow Rock makes good points.

In script book #12, JMS makes it clear that this is one of the episodes he wishes would drop off of a pier someplace. The story of how he came up with the story of the Ranger facing his terror, though, is a part of his personal history. He was mugged when he was young and almost died of his injuries. Upon leaving the hospital, before anything else, he needed to go back to that site and face his fear.

I never had a problem with the Mor'a'dum (sp?) because we already knew from Marcus that the Rangers teach their people "...terror. How to use it and how to face it." Anyway, if this is part of the Minbari tradition, it's not against the law for them. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking of the Minbari by human values but it's still supposed to be an alien culture.


Galahad September 26th 07 13:52

Re: EpDis: Learning Curve
Which kind of makes you wonder what terror Marcus faced (I can't remember if it was covered in "To Dream in the City of Sorrows". I'd wager it had something to do with returning to Mars or observing a shadow attack on a colony to face the loss of his brother... because as far as we know, that was the most traumatic thing he had experienced prior to meeting him.

vacantlook September 26th 07 20:49

Re: EpDis: Learning Curve

Originally Posted by Galahad
...I'd wager it had something to do with returning to Mars....

I can't remember: what happened to Marcus on Mars?

A_M_Swallow September 27th 07 03:27

Re: EpDis: Learning Curve

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 309406)
I can't remember: what happened to Marcus on Mars?

Marcus dated Number One and spotted the creature on Captain Jack's shoulder.

Garibaldi comes from Mars and it keeps trying to kill him.

Galahad September 27th 07 08:17

Re: EpDis: Learning Curve

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 309406)
I can't remember: what happened to Marcus on Mars?

I got a little mixed up.

Marcus spoke of being from a colony and I misheard Mars (A Late Delivery from Avalon), his early life and the event I was referring to (the Shadow attack that killed his brother, the place he worked and a woman he was particularly fond of), happened on a different colony - Arisia:


Marcus Cole was born on the Arisia Mining Colony, where his family operated a relatively dangerous mining operation. His brother William had left the colony and become a Ranger on Minbar; he was killed by the Shadows while visiting Marcus on Arisia. Marcus was one of the few survivors (if not the only survivor) of the attack. Much of Marcus Cole's early background is told in the novelization To Dream In the City of Sorrows (ISBN 0-345-45219-4) by Kathryn Drennan.

Marcus joined the Rangers following the death of his brother, William, and at times he seems to have joined the Rangers as a form of guilt over his brother's death.
My bad.

The point I was making was that in all likelihood, the event that caused him most terror was probably the one that led to him joining the rangers in the first place. Certainly, Turval was aware of it in the episode we are discussing... and he obviously saw it as a cause for concern.

I suppose for Lennier, terror would be facing up to his actions/inaction with regard to Sheridan in "Objects at Rest".

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