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vacantlook August 16th 06 17:44

EpDis: Rising Star
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Rising Star
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Rising Star

vacantlook August 18th 06 15:23

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
Ivanova's crying breakdown scene with Franklin on the floor of the medlab is one of the greatest dramatic moments of the show, in my opinion.

RW7427 August 18th 06 15:38

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
Indeed it is!

GaribaldisHair August 18th 06 16:46

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
'At least I should have boffed him just once.'

:D

Sindatur August 18th 06 17:31

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
"Did you just say boffed"?

deaded August 26th 06 08:14

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
Definitely up there among the top 30.

Elipsis February 1st 08 20:16

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 267444)
Ivanova's crying breakdown scene with Franklin on the floor of the medlab is one of the greatest dramatic moments of the show, in my opinion.

Indeed. And the episode gives a wonderful sense of closure... completely justified and well executed considering the uncertainty of season 5 at the time.

Who knew CC could act so well. Too bad we don't get to see it until practically her last appearance.

A.

maneth February 2nd 08 08:05

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
Indeed that's a real shame. One of the best episodes of the latter half of the 4th season.

Estelyn November 4th 10 22:42

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
This episode ties up a lot of loose ends. That gives many of the ensemble actors at least a scene or two, as well as adding guest actors such as the one who portrays President Luchenko - and the ISN anchor. Once again the newscast is used as a connecting element, providing background and transition.

I wonder just who is meant to be the title character, the "rising star"? Is it Luchenko, or Sheridan, both new presidents? Or is it more abstract and meant to refer to the Alliance?

Luchenko is very well portrayed. I was impressed by her measured vocal cadence, speaking quite slowly at the press conference to convey a calming influence. Yet she also came across as a hard-headed politician who accomplished what needed to be done - very pragmatic.

I agree with the above posts - Ivanova had what is probably her best scene in the whole show. She shows the difficulty of accepting the gift of life and love - nothing sweet about it! Her line that all love is unrequited is thought-provoking, though I'm not sure I agree. Certainly Delenn and Sheridan show that it can be reciprocated.

It*'s fun to see G'Kar and Londo with the strange, humorous "odd couple" kind of relationship they're developing.

Marcus' death finds meaning in Delenn's explanation - he has finally found peace by following the path of his heart. Once again we see Lennier's unrequited love for her in their scene together.

Garibaldi gets the action scene, rescuing Lise in his own inimitable way.

Even Bester shows up, sinister in one way, yet basically begging for Sheridan's help (already past) for his lover.

Sheridan is the man of the hour, of course - not only the conquering hero, but with prophetic insight, predicting the telepath wars. I like his speech about choices, consequences, and responsibility: some of the show's major themes. He again uses the phrase "all children of earth".

Much as I enjoy seeing a wedding, I think it's good that Sheridan's and Delenn's was not shown. It would not really have fit into the context of the show. It does amuse me to think of all the Minbari rituals they must have skipped; after the events of the past episodes, they apparently didn't want to waste any more time.

G'Kar's eye in their bedroom?! That's rather silly, I think. I do like the Narn's statement: "You do not make history, you only survive it."

And what Delenn says applies to the show as well as to the station: "Babylon 5 endures."

Lennier's Tears March 2nd 15 03:14

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
I don't like this episode AS much as the one right before it, but it does have a lot of good stuff in it. It just kind of makes me sad. It wraps up all these storylines I've gotten caught up in, and it has Marcus' death and Ivanova's departure.

Already mentioned above, but I have to agree: That scene with Ivanova crying on the floor in medlab is utterly heartbreaking. I can't watch that without crying. I have a question about it, though. I'm assuming that the body under sheet in the background is Marcus'. But, don't we see him in a freezer later on? If they were going to freeze him, why do they just let him sit out under a sheet?

Also, it occurred to me today for the first time that people in medlab drop stuff a lot. A couple of doctors (or other medical professionals) walk into the room where Marcus and Ivanova are hooked up to the alien healing device early on in the episode. They're carefully picking their way through the chaos Marcus left in his wake, so they know something is up, yet one of them still drops the stuff she is holding when they see Marcus. There was a similar scene just a few episodes ago (The Exercise of Vital Powers) when Lyta "woke up" one of the telepaths they were experimenting on in medlab. I feel like there have been similar scenes, but I can't say exactly which episodes.

Anyway

I like the bits with Luchenko. I agree with Estelyn that that character is well-written and well-played, as seen in the different ways she communicates with the press, Sheridan, or anyone else.

Delenn does make an excellent point about Marcus' death. But I still can't help but mope around sadly for a good while whenever I watch this episode.

I always like a G'Kar/Londo scene, but that eye bit, ehh.. Newly enlightened G'Kar is a creeper?

Mororless March 8th 15 12:56

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Elipsis (Post 315177)
Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 267444)
Ivanova's crying breakdown scene with Franklin on the floor of the medlab is one of the greatest dramatic moments of the show, in my opinion.

Indeed. And the episode gives a wonderful sense of closure... completely justified and well executed considering the uncertainty of season 5 at the time.

Who knew CC could act so well. Too bad we don't get to see it until practically her last appearance.

A.

To be fair theres more to acting that just showing strong emotion and in this case I think the scene works so well exactly because its such a big shift from an otherwise quite emotionally detached and cynical character.

This scene/story always reminded me rather of Kirk in Wrath of Khan following Spocks sacrifice. As with many elements of the story I think JMS does a good job deconstructing architypes. Its not like we haven't seen a lot of characters similar to Ivanova down the years in TV and film, emotionally detached cocksure cynics who'se world view never really gets questioned that much.

I think it makes the plot pack more of a punch in that we've seen the kind of relationship she has with Marcus exist as playful banter without much consequence so many times elsewhere, the same way we don't really question Kirk's gung ho heroism. To then find that yes there is consequence to such a characters world view/actions catches us unawares just as it catches them.

Lennier's Tears March 8th 15 19:19

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
That's an excellent analysis of the Ivanova character. I had never really thought of it, but now that you mention it, yes I can see a parallel with the Spock death scene.

It is definitely true that after I watched this episode, the re-watching of any previous episodes with Ivanova and Marcus felt rather different to me.

I also probably never considered how big a shift that scene was from anything we saw her do before. She definitely looks hurt when "evil" Talia comes out and sort of taunts her, but that's about all we get. When her old boyfriend turns out to be homeguard she mostly just looks disgusted. She did cry at her father's service, but that took some effort :p

I would have loved to have seen how the character evolved after this traumatic event ... Don't we all? Alas.

Mororless March 9th 15 09:44

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
I mention Trek but actually I think the way JMS calls moral failings to account is actually much closer to Tolkien. Indeed you get the most obvious setup for Ivanova here from a character with the most obvious links to him in Lorien, firstly his "its easy to find something worth dying for, have you got anything worth living for?" message to Sheridan and then his talk directly with her about mortality from Into the Fire.

Talia is definitely a setup for this, that's I would say a situation rather like G'kar in Coming of Shadows where a character has a shot at redemption taken away by outside events. I think she reaction to Sheridan's "death" at the start of the 4th season is also telling in its detachment or at least attempted detachment.

To me the message would be that having a death wish for the "good cause" is not really the ultimate moral answer and not an excuse for a lack of compassion elsewhere. Perhaps as well I would suggest that although Ivanova was fighting the good fight people in this kind of situation generally often don't.

I must admit I do tend to agree with CC that viewed with Sleeping In Light the character if not "complete" had run its course. I think its notable that Ivanova is narrating the ending of Sleeping in Light as she's the character who "carrys on the story" still searching for redemption. Ironically of course if you were to try and carry on the story at the moment it was actually be easiest with her since CC is about the same age today as she's ment to be by the finale.

Lennier's Tears March 10th 15 01:49

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mororless (Post 451280)
To me the message would be that having a death wish for the "good cause" is not really the ultimate moral answer and not an excuse for a lack of compassion elsewhere.

Do you mean Ivanova's or Marcus'? I never really picked up on Ivanova having as much of a "death wish" as Marcus, or Sinclair. I'm also not sure that she lacks compassion. But, I could easily be missing something. It's been known to happen :p

As for Marcus' sacrifice, I'd agree that it isn't presented as a "good thing", which is sort of interesting since self-sacrifice appears to be one of the main themes of the show. Perhaps together with "cooperation", or "community". Although I suppose they could be considered different parts of the same whole. Marcus, of course, didn't sacrifice himself for "the cause", he sacrificed himself to save the person he loved. It could be argued that he considered her more useful to the cause than himself, but that's a stretch. It isn't said anywhere that a sacrifice for the cause is more "moral" than a sacrifice for love. Sebastian in Comes the Inquisitor: "No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother". Not that the Vorlons are supposed to be the ultimate authority on morality :p Draal in A Voice in the Wilderness I: "The third principle of sentient life is the capacity for self-sacrifice: the conscious ability to override evolution and self-preservation for a cause, a friend, a loved one". I don't know if self-sacrifice is ever presented as a pure "good thing", but it does seem to be presented as the necessary thing. This episode is a little different in that respect. Ivanova gets to live, but she'll have to live with this guilt, even if she obviously had no say in the matter, and she will have to live with the loss.


Quote:

I must admit I do tend to agree with CC that viewed with Sleeping In Light the character if not "complete" had run its course. .
I'm not sure I'd agree with that ... I mean, I don't think it applies to that character any more than any other character. It certainly would have been interesting to see her in the telepath storyline.

Mororless March 10th 15 05:56

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
I was talking more about her than him and I think you can see especially in the conflict against the advanced destroyers that she's very much of the view that they all must be destroyed no matter the costs(which you can see Marcus is worried about). She's quite prone to taking extreme risks elsewhere in the show as well just as Sheridan was.

Its interesting that you mention that comment by Sebastian, I'd not considered before that it perhaps reflects on the Vorlons rather narrow view of morality relative to Lorien although I would say that Sheridan and Delenn sacrifce is one based on compassion. The view of the show as a whole I would say isn't that dieing for a good cause is wrong but that it isn't the be all and end all of morality and especially that compassion for others rather than hate should be at the heart of it. For Ivanova I think you could make the case that she fears death much less than emotional pain.

Watching Sleeping in Light you do get the idea that she hasn't found an emotional resolution in the years since and that becoming the leader of the rangers is perhaps her chance to do so. To me that did seem to fit into JMS's idea that the story never really end, interesting as well that despite seeming to makeup any ill feeling with CC he's never looked to carry on this story so perhaps he does value that kind of ending?

Jan March 10th 15 10:39

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mororless (Post 451285)
To me that did seem to fit into JMS's idea that the story never really end, interesting as well that despite seeming to makeup any ill feeling with CC he's never looked to carry on this story so perhaps he does value that kind of ending?

He hasn't written *any* B5 at all since the thaw in relations with CC. That's only a few years ago.

But he's written two short stories featuring Ivanova since the end of B5- "Hidden Agendas" where she's in command of the Warlock destroyer and "Space, Time and the Incurable Romantic", a rather controversial story about Ivanova and Marcus.

Jan

Mororless March 10th 15 12:36

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
Good to know there's someone else here besides us to resurrecting decade old threads.

I must confess I'v never read either of those stories but I remember someone posting the cliff nots of the second and really its much more about Marcus than it is Ivanova.

Anything that comes before Sleeping In Light though does clearly seem like it would be beholden to her position at that point which still to be clearly seems emotionally unresolved. I can definitely see how the character could have been used effectively in the 5th season but taken more in isolation I do find what we got very satisfactory and think it would have been hard to beat given that again you can't really offer an emotional resolution and have Sleeping in Light work.

Jan March 10th 15 16:54

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
Ivanova was never a particular favorite of mine (I really liked Lochley much better right off the bat) but I would have *loved* to have seen her in Season 5. If it had been Ivanova who'd had to call Bester in to deal with the rogue telepaths, that would have been some major drama. Not to mention having her allow herself to become involved with Byron only to find that it was a mistake. There could have been some really good acting opportunities for CC if she'd stayed.

Jan

Lennier's Tears March 11th 15 03:26

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 451290)
If it had been Ivanova who'd had to call Bester in to deal with the rogue telepaths, that would have been some major drama. Not to mention having her allow herself to become involved with Byron only to find that it was a mistake.

I would also have loved to have seen this.


Quote:

that compassion for others rather than hate should be at the heart of it
Yes, I think that's exactly right. I should have added something like that when I was listing major themes. It is definitely there.

Quote:

She's quite prone to taking extreme risks elsewhere in the show as well just as Sheridan was.
This is true, but in her (and Sheridan, for that matter), I see it more as duty and her accepting possible death as a consequence of doing what is right than what we see in Sinclair and Marcus who both suffer from survivor's guilt and are pretty much looking for an opportunity to die for something.

Interestingly, you could say that both Ivanova and Marcus came to be in the "Army of Light" because of a loss they suffered. Both of them lost a brother, too. It becomes clear in In The Beginning (and possibly elsewhere, I'm not sure) that Ivanova had decided to sign up with Earth Force before her brother's death, but I still get the impression that his death made her more determined. The situations were different, obviously, and I don't sense in her any guilt. Just loss. Everyone she's ever loved is dead. Yea, pairing her with Byron would be almost cruel, but it would have made sense.

Mororless March 11th 15 07:19

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
Sinclair to me though dispite carrying survivors guilt does seem to be emotionally more rounded. Both Ivanova and Marcus seem to display more of a "Samurai" world view, maybe not totally unquestioning in their loyalty but defined by that loyalty to Sheridan and Delenn respectively and the cause they lead.

The difference I think you could argue between them is that they seem to go in opposite directions. Marcus seems most extreme in that mindset when we meet him and is ready to let Neroon kill him for it. As time progresses though he seems more defined by the friendships he develops with the B5 crew and feelings for Ivanova to the extent its actually the latter than he does effective die for.

With Ivanova she moves from still considering opening up to others earlier in the show to really being defined by loyality to Sheridan and the cause as things progress. You can see the effect on her is more extreme than anyone else bar Delenn when Sheridan goes missing presumed dead at the start of season 4 and its her pushing for the most extreme self sacfical tactics when he;s captured at the end of the season.

Lennier's Tears March 12th 15 01:42

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mororless (Post 451296)
As time progresses though he seems more defined by the friendships he develops with the B5 crew and feelings for Ivanova to the extent its actually the latter than he does effective die for.

I could see that ...
In was thinking of that conversation the two of them have in Shadow Dancing:
Ivanova: "Well .. Who wants to live forever?" Marcus: "I do actually .. but what the hell" He SAYS that, but he's so burdened by guilt that he won't even participate in the Rebirth Ceremony to humor Delenn (Ceremonies of Light and Dark). Maybe if a closer relationship had developed between him and Ivanova, he could have gotten over his guilt and found something to live for. But it would no doubt have ended tragically in some other way :p


Quote:

With Ivanova she moves from still considering opening up to others earlier in the show to really being defined by loyality to Sheridan and the cause as things progress. You can see the effect on her is more extreme than anyone else bar Delenn when Sheridan goes missing presumed dead at the start of season 4 and its her pushing for the most extreme self sacfical tactics when he;s captured at the end of the season.
It's definitely true that she becomes more closed off to people and more devoted to duty/cause as time goes on. I get the impression she's always had that tendency but it's just gotten more pronounced as what little attempts at close personal relationships we see her make on the show end rather abruptly, and in one case extremely painfully. This on top of her family background.

I don't know if her loyalty to the cause and her loyalty to Sheridan are the same thing. That is to say, I feel she would have been on board with this cause no matter who was leading it, and if Sheridan had fallen before he became this sort of "personality", I could see Ivanova leading. Her concern for Sheridan seems to be more personal. He is one of the closest people to her. All her family members are dead, and she doesn't appear to have any kind of social life outside of work.

This is all very interesting! :) Clearly there are still lots of things I have never considered in the the 20 years since B5 came into being. I look forward to discovering more of them!

Mororless March 12th 15 10:29

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
Its probably the most indepth I can remember discussing these characters as most of what I'v done in the past online has been around Sheridan, Delenn, Londo and G'kar.

Again I would say Babylon 5 exists in a strange kind of "inbetween" from the pulpier TV of years gone by and the more film like TV that exists today. It offers the same kind of depth of drama of the best modern TV but has one foot in the pulp style as well and actually works in a lot of its drama by deconstructing expectations of that style.

I did think of that line from Shadow Dancing as well which seems somewhat throwaway at the time but could actually be viewed as telling the story of the two characters.

As far as duty and personal attachment to Sheridan goes with Ivanova I would say its a mix of both. His friendship definitely seems to be her main support but equally I think following him gives her a clearer and simpler path in life. Not just in terms of duty vs fulfilling personal life but of the kind of duty and the kind of moral tests it offers.

To me it seems like a lot of the burden Sheridan takes up as he takes up a greater and gerater position of leadership is the burden not just of putting his own life at risk but of either ordering or having others make sacrifces on his behalf. Sending Macrus and Ivanova themselves on a 50/50 mission in Shadow dancing, sending the ranger crew to their deaths to draw the shadows into the conflict, having other Alliance ships take the hits from the shadow planet killer to save him, using the telepaths to disable the earth force fleet, etc.

Ivanova on the other hand never really does this, she sends others into risky situations but only when she shares the risk with them. She asks to be out where with the Star Fury pilots in the battle with earth force in Severed Dreams and demands to be in the final confrontation of the Shadow War. When she takes over from him in the Earthj civil war the first thing she does is take personal command of a very high risk mission. I'd say that obviously plays into not being able to take Marcus's sacrifice on her behalf and you could argue even that her taking the position of Ranger One in Sleeping in Light might offer redemption by taking up that kind of responsibility.

vorlonlovechild March 12th 15 14:35

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
Best part of the episode for me was when Delenn is speaking and the White Star Fleet flys over. It draws very definite parallels with the shadows flying over centauri prime. It seems to me to be a very deliberate parallel as well. Delenn then becomes very abrupt and to the point. The rangers will only come where they are welcome... Sounds familiar. A massive show of force, again much like the shadows over centauri prime. Of course Humanity does not have to join this alliance, but will be isolated if it doesn't. Good God Delenn, your husband to be is Human.

Psi Cop March 13th 15 12:41

Re: EpDis: Rising Star
 
I always skip this episode. Try going straight from 'Endgame' to 'Deconstruction of Fallen Stars' and you'll see what I mean. The formation of the alliance is implied while retaining an element of mystique about the whole thing. Some things are best left unshown.


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