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vacantlook June 23rd 06 19:04

EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Moments Of Transition
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Moments Of Transition

KoshN June 23rd 06 22:38

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
A - Excellent, especially for Neroon's final scene.

Jan June 23rd 06 23:03

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
This one's a favorite of mine, not just because it was the final script I got to finish my collection. As we've learned is common, the quieter sounding titles JMS would use often were the most crucial episodes. I was sorry to see the end of Neroon, that's for sure.

Jan

RW7427 June 24th 06 04:29

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
I love the Minbari civil war storyline. Excellent stuff!

hypatia June 24th 06 14:41

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
It was too bad saying goodbye to Neroon. And I, too, really liked the Minbari civil war arc(s). For such a strong, superior race to fall back to such ways (like herding people out of the city until they die of exposure) really seemed... like "how the mighty have fallen".

Am I the only one who thought Neroon's sudden awakening to having the heart of the Religious cast was a bit... comical, though? And wow, since when do the Minbari act on such random impulses, anyway? :)

RW7427 June 24th 06 17:35

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Yeah, the thing with Neroon was pretty good. It was too bad to see him go, I agree, but I guess it was necessary. He was probably one of the few that realized that Delenn and the ideas she believed in were best for the Minbari people and was willing to even give his life for those ideas.

hypatia June 24th 06 18:21

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
And perhaps that was the point. Or that he just had a very powerful spiritual moment. But what exactly could be achieved with his death that couldn't be by just calling off the war? :confused:

KoshN June 24th 06 20:17

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Quote:

But what exactly could be achieved with his death that couldn't be by just calling off the war? :confused:

Wasn't it the case of the one who stayed in the starfire wheel and gave his/her life for the cause, that one's caste would lead? Delenn elected to stay inside, and give her life. Remember, Lennier said she was making a point? By Delenn not coming out right after Shakiri, somebody in the Religious Caste had to be sacrificed in the starfire wheel. Neroon (Warrrior Caste) believed in her and her cause, and so had to convert to Religious Caste in order save Delenn (Religious Caste) and not alter who's caste would lead. After that, Delenn hand picked the next Grey Council, 5 Worker Caste, 2 Religious Caste, and 2 Warrior Caste.

Jan June 24th 06 21:32

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Quote:

Wasn't it the case of the one who stayed in the starfire wheel and gave his/her life for the cause, that one's caste would lead?

Exactly, which made Neroon's sacrifice that much more meaningful. He'd gone from wanting his caste to lead the Anla'shok to realizing that the Rangers would die for her to realizing that her leadership was worth dying for himself, even to the extent of renouncing the Warrior Caste to ensure it.

Jan

KoshFan June 24th 06 21:54

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Also remember who Neroon's old boss was. Branmer. The one who went from Religious to Warrior back before the Minbari War, and whose remains are at the center of "Legacies."

Neroon completes the circle.

hypatia June 25th 06 00:51

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Ah, so it was all done so that Delenn could pick the next council. Actually that does make sense. Especially since Neroon had a lot to do with the starting of the civil war in the first place. It was a way to both redeem himself and to allow the plan to go forward.

I need to rewatch these episodes some day. :)

Quote:

Also remember who Neroon's old boss was. Branmer. The one who went from Religious to Warrior back before the Minbari War, and whose remains are at the center of "Legacies."

Neroon completes the circle.

And that is a nice touch that completely escaped me. But that's another part of Minbari thinking: restoring balance and completing circles.

KoshFan June 25th 06 14:25

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Considering that Neroon was actually on Delenn's side the entire time, he had already taken a big step towards redemption, I think. Dying nobly always gets you redemption points, though.

hypatia June 25th 06 15:41

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Now, remind me: wasn't it Delenn who basically screwed up the plan by deciding to sacrifice herself? In a way, can't you say she unwittingly helped to kill him?

Well, I can say it was a surprise, it was sad to see such a good character go, but in the end I was surprised B5 managed to hang onto as many regulars as it did. :lol:

fisheggs June 25th 06 17:42

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Quote:

Now, remind me: wasn't it Delenn who basically screwed up the plan by deciding to sacrifice herself? In a way, can't you say she unwittingly helped to kill him?

Well, I can say it was a surprise, it was sad to see such a good character go, but in the end I was surprised B5 managed to hang onto as many regulars as it did. :lol:


:beer: Now tell me true, who do you want to go on, plotwise, Dalenn or Neroon? :devil: Though it could have been a really big plot-twist: Sheridan and Neroon gt married and have a child. :devil:

hypatia June 25th 06 17:44

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Who said it was either one or the other? They'd come to an agreement, after all, that might have worked.

But yes, this made great drama. :)

fisheggs June 25th 06 17:50

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Sorry kiddo, The Caste who's champion DIED, not lasted longest, was the "old rule" which Delenn was basing her challenge on, pre-Valen. Somebody had to die and she was aware of that, thus her letter to lennier.

hypatia June 25th 06 17:54

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Ah, that was the detail I couldn't remember.

So it did have a purpose. :)

I really need to buy and watch the entire series again some day. It's been too many years. :lol:

vacantlook June 25th 06 18:15

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
I don't remember where or when, but I remember sometime ago reading something that seemed to be saying that with jms having all sorts of potential trap doors for characters should he come upon a real life situation that required him to remove characters from the story that this event was one he had in case he needed it for Delenn. That if for some reason he couldn't continue the Delenn character for one reason or another that he had this moment as an option for actually killing off Delenn and full-time bringing on Neroon to replace her in the character lineup for the show. Again, I don't remember where I read that though.

Boxie July 4th 06 01:43

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Quote:

he had this moment as an option for actually killing off Delenn

I'm sitting here trying to imagine the rest of this story without Delenn.... :( I can't do it.

babylon1122 July 4th 06 15:18

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Quote:

I don't remember where or when, but I remember sometime ago reading something that seemed to be saying that with jms having all sorts of potential trap doors for characters should he come upon a real life situation that required him to remove characters from the story that this event was one he had in case he needed it for Delenn. That if for some reason he couldn't continue the Delenn character for one reason or another that he had this moment as an option for actually killing off Delenn and full-time bringing on Neroon to replace her in the character lineup for the show. Again, I don't remember where I read that though.


I know it was written in one of the script volumns. Which one I can't remember. 6 or 7 :confused:

GKarsEye July 4th 06 15:54

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Quote:

Quote:

he had this moment as an option for actually killing off Delenn

I'm sitting here trying to imagine the rest of this story without Delenn.... :( I can't do it.

The rest of the story, when you think about it, doesn't actually need Delenn. The main plot lines left after this were the conclusion of the Earth civil war, the telepath colony crisis, and the fall of the Centauri. The only important thing Delenn was involved with was the formation of the Interstellar Alliance. However, it was implied that even that was planned along with Sheridan, so Delenn wasn't really that important afterwards.

Elipsis January 17th 08 00:58

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
An A for the Minbari civil war sequence and also for the intense ending decision. Lyta really gets the shaft here, and Garibaldi heads even farther down a dark road, it's a pretty strong episode emotionally.

Estelyn October 24th 10 20:46

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
I agree, this episode is very emotional, very gripping. There are so many things going on simultaneously, yet the threads are skilfully intertwined without getting tangled.

Garibaldi is being played without realizing it. He thinks he's working independently, but this episode shows us that Edgars and PsiCorps are working together. Lyta is the one who obviously suffers as a result - her tears when putting on the PsiCorps symbols are heart-wrenching.

The "Mr. Adams" client is actually Scott Adams, the "Dilbert" cartoonist. I find it very amusing, a comical moment that combines his real person with his cartoons (Dogbert and Catbert, anyone?!) yet fits into the B5 world. Apparently he's been a fan of the show all along.

Zack has developed very well, grown into his responsibility. He accepts the unpleasant jobs that go with his position and carries through with them. It's nice to see the growing friendship between him and Lyta; he wishes for something more, obviously, and she's grateful for some kindness after being rejected by so many others.

Ah, and Bester again - wonderfully devious, skilfully achieving his purposes...

The Minbar plot is the most important, of course, with far-reaching effects on the future. We see a very strongly contrasting attitude on the part of the leaders of the religious and warrior castes. Shakiri doesn't care about individuals, especially not for those of his people who are not of his caste, claims to regard death and life as equal, but when it comes to putting his money where his mouth is, he fails completely.

This episode shows Neroon's true colours after the last one ended with him looking like a traitor. He is the hero of the day, and with his "death-bed conversion" gives Delenn the necessary power to reunite their people. He has learned to see clearly, with wisdom. It is a shame to lose him though...

As for Delenn, she does what we've seen Sinclair and Sheridan do before - beating them by the book. Since Shakiri reverts to the old ways, pre-Valen, she goes all the way and challenges him. Her courage and willingness to sacrifice herself for the good of her people - the whole people - is deeply moving. And her decision to give the working caste more power in the rebuilt Council shows great wisdom.

The question arises - who is to be "The One", who will stand in the middle of the circle? I'm betting on David Sheridan, since John and Delenn's child is supposed to have a special role in the future.

Minbar has achieved peace - but Earth is now heading for war. The inhumane actions - paralleling the attitude of Shakiri and the warrior caste - no longer allow Sheridan, Ivanova and the rest to wait.

Lennier's Tears February 26th 15 00:58

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
I really like this episode. I'm a big fan of the Minbari civil war storyline, but everything else in this episode is high quality stuff as well.

I'm assuming the reason Delenn didn't include Lennier in her plotting with Neroon is that she knew he would have tried to stop her from sacrificing herself in the Starfire wheel. She told Neroon she would step out after Shakiri did, and he apparently believed her. Lennier never would have believed her. Incidentally whose honor was she protecting by telling that particular lie? She gave Lennier her instructions right before she stepped into the wheel so there wasn't time for him to figure out what she was planning, or to do anything about it. It's interesting that Delenn knew beforehand that Shakiri would step out of the fire. I guess Neroon told her, based on what he knew of Shakiri's character. And, from what we see here, it's kind of a mystery to me how this guy ended up a warrior caste leader.

It's sad there will be no more Neroon, but it was a fitting end for him. Perhaps his last minute conversion was a tad on the dramatic side, but I suppose he was in a great deal of pain while he stood there yelling about how the calling of his heart was religious. And, it fixed everything.

Mr. Bester, like Marcus has a thing for 19th century literature, it would appear. Any story with Bester is interesting. This one is no exception. I'm kind of interested to know how Lyta can tell when Bester is scanning Garibaldi. Obviously, since she's been "enhanced" by the Vorlons she has all kinds of talents we know nothing about, but .. how? Wouldn't she have to be in Garibaldi's head herself to see someone else poking around in there? Or would Bester's presence in Garibaldi's mind disturb the "background noise" to a sufficient extent that she'd be able to tell immediately?

It's sad seeing Lyta get screwed over by everyone. Her job is indeed a thankless one. Can't get a job, and now forced to move to smaller quarters. That scene at the end where she's looking in the mirror, with her new psi corps badge, putting on her gloves is heartbreaking indeed.

Exciting stuff at the end, the war against Earth is on!

Jan February 26th 15 17:11

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451208)
She told Neroon she would step out after Shakiri did, and he apparently believed her. Lennier never would have believed her. Incidentally whose honor was she protecting by telling that particular lie?

Neroon's in a way, I think. She had to deceive him because otherwise, as a member of the Warrior Caste, it could have been said that he'd helped engineer her death. That's what I've always thought, anyway.

Jan

Lennier's Tears February 26th 15 18:00

Re: EpDis: Moments Of Transition
 
Yea, that seems plausible enough to me :)


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