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-   -   EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=9088)

vacantlook June 17th 06 22:25

EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Rumors, Bargains and Lies
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Rumors, Bargains and Lies

Springer June 25th 06 13:32

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
I have a big problem with this episode, and its the way Sheridan goes around deceiving the non-aligned worlds to get them to act as he likes. Though we know plenty of stuff like that goes on in real life, to begin working towards the Alliance like that doesn't seem like an honest foundation on which to build it, when the Alliance makes such a big deal about principles. This episode also portrays the non-aligned aliens as pretty stupid people (in fact, quite a few of the episodes do, and its rare we see an individual Drazi or Markab or whatever act like they have a modicum of intelligence). So yeah, not a big fan of this episode. At least its got the Minbari plot to keep it going.

hypatia June 25th 06 15:17

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
That is a valid point. I see it as being a sign of his exasperation/desperation. And in reality, he didn't really do anything. Just had Marcus go out and shoot up some rocks. If some people want to jump to conclusions... Sherridan himself never lied. ;)

KoshFan June 25th 06 15:26

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
It's true. Ivanova's news report was absolutely factual.

But as we all learned from Wag the Dog, the best way to start a rumor is to have people in power deny it.

fisheggs June 25th 06 18:36

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
Reminds me of Goodkind's Sword of Truth series concept: Wizards First Rule: People are Stupid! They believe what they want to. A favorite of mine.


And it seems it's true for Aliens as well. :beer:

All Sheridan really did was to reinforce the concept that an Enemy is out there. And they stand a better chance together than alone. He was also right, Drakh anyone? I also love that JMS showed how politics sometimes works and how fear is a big motivator in "the big scheme of things" :D

RW7427 June 25th 06 20:41

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
Quote:

Reminds me of Goodkind's Sword of Truth series concept: Wizards First Rule: People are Stupid! They believe what they want to. A favorite of mine.


I don't remember Richard or Zed saying that. :p

vacantlook June 25th 06 20:59

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
"People are stupid."

A version of this was said by Principal Snyder in reference to the residents of Sunnydale and their ability to disregard the frequent supernatural occurances that happen around town in Buffy The Vampire Slayer. If I remember correctly, his specific version was, "I don't know if you've payed attention, but people in this town are deeply stupid." :D People seeing a group of vampires and thinking them to just be a gang wacked out on PCP or getting bitten by a vampire, not remembering much about it, and thinking because of the shape of the neck wound that they must have fallen on one of those two-pronged barbeque forks despite not owning one, for examples.

fisheggs June 25th 06 21:11

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
Quote:

Quote:

Reminds me of Goodkind's Sword of Truth series concept: Wizards First Rule: People are Stupid! They believe what they want to. A favorite of mine.


I don't remember Richard or Zed saying that. :p

You mean Zeddicus Z'ul Zorander? :D copyright 1994? :beer:


He did. Paraphrased of course. :D

RW7427 June 25th 06 22:42

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
He did? Perhaps I need to re-read that book. :lol:

KoshFan June 26th 06 13:07

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
Quote:

"People are stupid."

A version of this was said by Principal Snyder in reference to the residents of Sunnydale and their ability to disregard the frequent supernatural occurances that happen around town in Buffy The Vampire Slayer. If I remember correctly, his specific version was, "I don't know if you've payed attention, but people in this town are deeply stupid." :D People seeing a group of vampires and thinking them to just be a gang wacked out on PCP or getting bitten by a vampire, not remembering much about it, and thinking because of the shape of the neck wound that they must have fallen on one of those two-pronged barbeque forks despite not owning one, for examples.

Specifically, I believe Snyder was talking about the Sunnydale police, but on the wider scale it was true for people as well, too. The smart folks like Oz had no trouble believing the whole vampire deal as soon as it was pointed out to them.


The cops, of course, never did realize what was going on. Which is why the Trio never really worried about them. They knew who Sunnydale's finest really were.

Sindatur June 26th 06 14:23

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
Well, Oz did have a step up on believing in the Supernatural, being a werewolf and all ;)

Sindatur June 26th 06 14:30

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
Quote:

I have a big problem with this episode, and its the way Sheridan goes around deceiving the non-aligned worlds to get them to act as he likes. Though we know plenty of stuff like that goes on in real life, to begin working towards the Alliance like that doesn't seem like an honest foundation on which to build it, when the Alliance makes such a big deal about principles. This episode also portrays the non-aligned aliens as pretty stupid people (in fact, quite a few of the episodes do, and its rare we see an individual Drazi or Markab or whatever act like they have a modicum of intelligence). So yeah, not a big fan of this episode. At least its got the Minbari plot to keep it going.

Eh, how many soldiers believed (and some still do) Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11, simply because BushCo mentioned 9/11, War on Terror and Saddam Hussein in the same sentence over and over again. Bush almost never actually said Saddam had anything to do with it, he just mentioned them in a sentence together and let people figure out for themselves Saddam was involved. So, if our military, and a large portion of the civillian population in this country can believe that, I don't see how this manipulation of Sheridan's makes them anymore stupid then the human condition.

Sheridan tried going down the right path with the Ambassadors, but they simply weren't getting it. So, Sheridan did the same kind of thing Military and Political human leaders have always done. I believe this was JMS way of saying 500 years isn't going to have any impact on this part of the Human condition. Was it honorable, no not really, but, it did get the job done that ahd to be done. And as pointed out, he really didn't actually lie, he merely gave them a circumstance to misinterpret.

vacantlook June 26th 06 17:38

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
Quote:

Well, Oz did have a step up on believing in the Supernatural, being a werewolf and all

The time at which Oz learned of the truth of the existance of vampires, he wasn't a werewolf yet. He learned of vampires in "Surprise" when Buffy, having not yet arrived at the Bronze, flung a vampire through a window and dusted the vamp in front of everyone who had gathered for Buffy's surprise birthday party. He became a werewolf two episodes later in "Phases" after having been bitten by his cousin.

Sindatur June 26th 06 18:00

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
Oh, my bad, I didn't know that. I thought he was always a werewolf, and it was only later the "Scooby Gang" found out.

KoshFan June 26th 06 21:13

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
He took the whole werewolf thing fairly calmly, too. But that's the awesomeness of Oz.

Elipsis January 17th 08 01:55

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
B+, I really liked the Delenn sequence, it would have been an A- episode if not for Sheridan running around with a stupid smirk on his face outsmarting everyone the whole episode.

Estelyn October 23rd 10 21:31

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
I admit, Sheridan giggling to himself was rather ridiculous. I did enjoy seeing how he took the truth and let it be misinterpreted to accomplish what needed to be done.

I felt Delenn's distress over the destruction and death that took place on her world. In this situation, one does get the impression that Lennier is closer to her than Sheridan can be.

The plot of this episode, with its twists and turns, was quite suspenseful. The religious caste brings dishonour to itself, even turning on one of its own. Neroon seems to play a positive role - as always, his subtle humour is enjoyable! - but is shown to be serving his own deceitful purposes at the end. How disappointing...

Lennier is the hero of the day. Once more his deep love for Delenn is evidenced in his actions, motivating him to do the right thing for her sake. "In her world, we are better than we are." Knowing what comes in future episodes, I can't help but think ahead to when he will do something harmful out of love for her later. The visual similarities between the scenes are striking.

rjb October 24th 10 16:26

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn (Post 365701)
Neroon seems to play a positive role - as always, his subtle humour is enjoyable! - but is shown to be serving his own deceitful purposes at the end. How disappointing...

Surely the point here is that this is deliberately left ambiguous, and then we discover in the next episode that this very thing (i.e. the content and tenor of his communication with Shakiri at the very end) was part of what he discussed with Delenn `off-camera`, part of their plan - all of which worked perfectly, except for Neroon's last minute sacrifice (because, I surmise, he had a profound change of heart at that moment - his "Damascus Road experience", if you like).

hypatia October 26th 10 04:09

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
Yes, I think it was deliberate.

Another thing to consider is that the "villian" never sees himself as a villian. He wouldn't see it as disappoining to have given his caste an edge, if he felt that the alternative was bad for the Minbari.

Lennier's Tears February 26th 15 01:29

Re: EpDis: Rumors, Bargains and Lies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 262062)
I have a big problem with this episode, and its the way Sheridan goes around deceiving the non-aligned worlds to get them to act as he likes. Though we know plenty of stuff like that goes on in real life, to begin working towards the Alliance like that doesn't seem like an honest foundation on which to build it, when the Alliance makes such a big deal about principles. This episode also portrays the non-aligned aliens as pretty stupid people (in fact, quite a few of the episodes do, and its rare we see an individual Drazi or Markab or whatever act like they have a modicum of intelligence). So yeah, not a big fan of this episode. At least its got the Minbari plot to keep it going.

I'm glad this is the first post, because I have the same problem with this episode. Well, I think the idea that ALL of the representatives of the Non Aligned Worlds are bumbling buffoons bothers me more than the deception, but that whole storyline kinda rubs me the wrong way. And Sheridan smirking to himself and not explaining anything doesn't do it for me either.

That said, I'm a big fan of the Minbari storyline. I always like Neroon scenes. His is a great character. This isn't the first time that a Neroon story coincides with what I consider to be a lesser story in the same episode (see also Grey 17 is Missing). The Minbari civil war is a very interesting plot. I like how Delenn calls upon Neroon to end it. An excellent move. The other members of the religious caste plotting against Delenn, willing to sacrifice themselves over something that they have assumed to be true based on fairly little evidence, also very interesting. I guess it sort of mirrors the Non-Aligned Worlds plot, where they're just assuming they're getting shafted and acting rather hasty and thoughtless because of it. Lennier, ever steadfast and stalwart, saving the day for everyone. And he's lying, not so much to protect those other religious Minbari's honor, but to protect Delenn. I guess that's also allowed :p It's an interesting choice and I'm not entirely sure if I agree with it. I enjoy watching the embarrassed looks on everyone's faces when Delenn talks about how they are her steady rock. Especially Guy Siner, who has just the right face for that sort of thing. It's fairly hard to imagine that Delenn isn't picking up on this, but I suppose she comes from an environment where she would never expect such dishonesty ... Or maybe she does know, but chooses not to say anything, because surely they have learned their lesson?

There's another great bit with Londo reflected in mirrors in this episode.


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