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-   -   EpDis: Into The Fire (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8965)

Jade Jaguar November 20th 07 05:14

Re: EpDis: Into The Fire

Originally Posted by Elipsis (Post 312582)
Heavily philosophical, I am always torn between wanting to see this end in explosions or reason. I suppose we get our explosions with the earth conflict. I would've liked to have seen this as a 2-parter, but after reading the lurker's guide, I've got to agree that more shooting and space battles wouldn't have changed the way it had to end. Sheridan himself said that they could not win that battle, and to have them do so would have been unnatural given the strength of the first ones.

Well, I disagree, I think it easily could have ended in defeat for both the Shadows and the Vorlons. When I saw B5 the first time, Sheridan's strategy seemed obvious to me -- he was trying to incite a direct conflict between the Shadows and the Vorlons, in hopes that they would nearly wipe each other out. At that point, his forces, including the other First Ones, would try to take out the few weakened survivors. That might have worked.

So, I was surprised, and perhaps a little let down, that we didn't see an epic space battle. But, I like surprises, and liked the way JMS did handle it.

vacantlook November 20th 07 06:43

Re: EpDis: Into The Fire

Originally Posted by Elipsis
The story always gets me wondering why the Vorlons went nuts when they did. Perhaps it was the death of Kosh....

Indeed it was. jms has said that Kosh worried about what Ulkesh and the other Vorlons would do if Kosh's moderating voice was absent. We got that answer in that the Vorlons decided to ride around the galaxy and blow up planets.

mattikake November 20th 07 11:03

Re: EpDis: Into The Fire
I think the only thing missing from this episode, was a private scene where Lorien turns to the Shadows and the Vorlons and says something like "Yep, that worked perfectly. We made them understand for themselves, by themselves. Right, on to the next Galaxy...!" ;)

I mean, c'mon. 2 races who are billions of years more advanced that us who don't have the wisdom and presence of mind bot to get dragged into an arguement? That makes them look pretty dum, but I guess you have to appeal to the audience! (In that not that the audience is dum but that it has to relate to humans, as I'm sure we couldn't comprehend an intelligence billions of years more advance than our own. In fact we'd probably even be unaware of their existence, they would be so much 'higher'. Whatever, still cool though.)

Kaz November 21st 07 10:21

Re: EpDis: Into The Fire
I loved it when the Vorlons and the Shadows realised that the other races wouldn't fight for them anymore. Great story arc tie-up.

Estelyn October 12th 10 13:07

Re: EpDis: Into The Fire
Very little of this episode takes place on Babylon 5 - we see Centauri Prime and the White Stars, for the most part.

I too like the way JMS solved the situation. There could be no military victory, so he chose a moral one. It reminds me very much of The Lord of the Rings: there too the powers of darkness were too many to defeat in battle. The conflict could only be won by destroying the the source of the enemy's power.

And like that victory, it does not end the story - there's more to come. B5's "Scouring of the Shire" will still have to take place. What has gone before was preparation for that, and like Gandalf, Lorien is no longer there to help. The characters have grown up.

I was moved to see Londo's attempts to save his planet, down to asking Vir to kill him, since he was the last one there to be influenced by the Shadows. Self-sacrifice is an important step on the way to redemption.

And yes, it was a very amusing touch to see that Vir is the one person who got what he wanted, just as he told Morden long ago!

Lennier's Tears February 16th 15 02:35

Re: EpDis: Into The Fire
Ah, finally I can take a breath again. All that tension-building comes to a head in this one, and it's pretty glorious.

The space battles in this look great, even after 20 years. There's a few new gorgeous nebulae as backgrounds, too. And I just love how the White Stars move.

But this is mostly not about space battles ... I am pleased that the story didn't have the younger races win an actual firefight against either the Shadows or Vorlons, let alone both. Not even a Sheridan trick could have gotten them a victory. Well, I suppose it was a Sheridan trick that .. did the trick in the end, but not in battle. And that is as it should be.

I enjoy the symbolism in the way the Vorlons and Shadows communicate in this one. That might mean it's a bit over the top, because I can be quite thick in picking up on metaphors and such. On the other hand, it might just mean I've watched this many, many times :p

I think this story, and this outcome makes sense. If you have a universe (or a galaxy, although I get the impression that the two are sometimes used interchangeably on this show, presumably to express that that is the extent of their known universe?) in which older races shepherd younger races until they can take care of themselves, and then move away, then clearly this is that time for the Vorlons and Shadows. I'm not so sure about the other First Ones. But if, of all peoples, the Drazi (purple ... green!) are falling on their swords for the cause, clearly the time has come. The younger races are ready.

I enjoy that conversation between Lorien and Ivanova, where they talk about the perceptions of an immortal being versus those of a mortal, and he tells her only those with a short lifespan can imagine love is eternal, and she should embrace this remarkable illusion, for it might be the greatest gift her race has ever received. I don't think she believes him.

The Centauri Prime bit is great, of course. We all love to see Morden lose his car salesman cool, and get his ... And Vir doing the little wave. He so deserved that. Vir, I mean, although one could say the same about Morden.

And now the real work must begin ...

Springer February 16th 15 11:20

Re: EpDis: Into The Fire

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451139)
I enjoy that conversation between Lorien and Ivanova, where they talk about the perceptions of an immortal being versus those of a mortal, and he tells her only those with a short lifespan can imagine love is eternal, and she should embrace this remarkable illusion, for it might be the greatest gift her race has ever received. I don't think she believes him.

I found it interesting that there was a hint of regret in Lorien's voice when he was telling Ivanova this?

Lennier's Tears February 17th 15 00:29

Re: EpDis: Into The Fire
Yea, I think you are right, I also get that impression. It's hard to imagine what one would be thinking if one had lived millions (billions?) of years, but it seems to me that it would make sense for one so old to be perhaps a tad melancholy. Everyone he used to know is long, long gone. On the other hand, perhaps all those years alone would get you really used to this idea, and you wouldn't care at all? Personally, I like the idea of the melancholy First One :)

Springer March 4th 15 19:04

Re: EpDis: Into The Fire
The Pillars of Creation! Although of course nebulae wouldn't really look like that up close. The Hubble images are false colour, in reality all these colourful nebulae would look mainly red from hydrogen emission. Plus they'd appear quite diffuse up close. But it is cool that they used the Hubble images as backgrounds.

Love the First Ones ships. I've been lucky that I've been able to buy some of the models of the First Ones ships that were originally made for the Babylon 5 Wars strategy game.

I'm in two minds about this episode. Of this 6 episode arc, I think this episode is the weakest in terms of drama. Don't get me wrong, I love the story, the idea of the ancient beings leaving the Galaxy and the younger races stepping up to the plate is awesome. Its just that it ends up being talking heads and I don't find the visuals used particularly interesting - black backgrounds and spotlights, a woman in a block of ice and the Shadows masquerading as various B5 characters. I feel JMS should have just let his imagination run wild here, it almost feels like he's playing it safe and it feels a bit dull. Sheridan lectures his way to a victory, I think it would have been better for the viewer if he could have got his point across by actions somehow, rather than static talking.

I should mention that the Centauri scenes are excellent. Morden's haircut looks rubbish though! Maybe it's a 90s fashion.

I do really like the ending, the shot of B5 outside of the window, getting closer. There's a Minbari ship on patrol - I did wonder if any ships had stayed behind to protect the station in case President Clark's forces took advantage and tried to take the station. Thinking about it, that would have been a hell of a shock if Sheridan had arrived back to find that!

Other little things: I think moving the Lorien/Ivanova scene from The Long Night into this episode hampered the flow of the episode. For one, Ivanova wouldn't just be hanging around, she'd be busting a gut to meet up with the fleet. There has also obviously been a line added to Ivanova's narration at the beginning where she talks about going back to B5 - the audio sounds different. And the scene with Delenn telling Ivanova to "haul ass" seems needless.

When Sheridan and Delenn are talking to the Vorlons and Shadows, there's a weird bit of editing - Sheridan's talking, and there is music in the background, then suddenly it cuts to Delenn and the music just stops suddenly.

Why would the Shadow cloud cause everything to get cold? Are the White Star's jump engines really solar powered?

The shot of the Shadow ships leaving looks like the shot of their ships arriving, just run in reverse.

The end of an era, and the dawn of a new age.

Lennier's Tears March 4th 15 23:27

Re: EpDis: Into The Fire
I never could figure out why it gets so cold when the Shadows move in. Good question.

I agree about that moved Ivanova/Lorien scene. She looks like she's just casually packing her bags, it doesn't really fit. But I can see why they wanted to keep that scene even if they couldn't fit it in its proper place. As I said upthread, I do enjoy that conversation :)

LOL at Morden's 90s haircut. He's not the most stylish of the B5 characters ... Even when not shedding skin flakes all over the place.

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