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-   -   EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8924)

vacantlook April 2nd 06 00:53

EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Falling Toward Apotheosis
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Falling Toward Apotheosis

KoshFan April 3rd 06 14:13

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Vorlon vs. Vorlon. How can this be bad?

Elric April 3rd 06 17:38

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Quote:

Vorlon vs. Vorlon. How can this be bad?

LOL.

I really enjoyed this episode. It has the usual good mixture of drama and action. The Vorlon battle was great, and it was interesting to finally see what they really looked like. We also see how powerful they really are - requiring a small army, AND a First One to destroy it! My only slight critisism is that the place where Ulkesh was electrified was marked in a "this is a trap" kind of way, he must have been pretty dumb to fall for that old trick ;) (my memory of it is a little vague so it might not be quite as bad as I remember)

It was also intersting to see how G'Kar finally lost his eye. Another thread, neatly tied up ;)

Sindatur April 3rd 06 17:44

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Quote:

Quote:

Vorlon vs. Vorlon. How can this be bad?

LOL.

I really enjoyed this episode. It has the usual good mixture of drama and action. The Vorlon battle was great, and it was interesting to finally see what they really looked like. We also see how powerful they really are - requiring a small army, AND a First One to destroy it! My only slight critisism is that the place where Ulkesh was electrified was marked in a "this is a trap" kind of way, he must have been pretty dumb to fall for that old trick ;) (my memory of it is a little vague so it might not be quite as bad as I remember)


I chalked that up to Ulkesh's arrogance. He didn't fear a trap, because he "knew" the humans were no threat to him.

KoshFan April 4th 06 13:26

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
And that particular trap was indeed no threat to him. Sure, it busted up his encounter suit, but that didn't really affect his strength.

Wasted April 4th 06 22:11

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
One of my favorite episodes! The Vorlon battle was truly something special. When watching this episode during the first run my eyes went wide and my jaw dropped when I saw the Vorlon's true form emerge and do battle. Epic stuff.

My only nit-pick is that the Lyta actress could have done a much better job of ACTing while pulling off her deception of Ulkesh. Not slick at all :p But I love her anyway.

-----------------
Old account 'Khurzhor' seems to be deleted, so I made a new one. Amazing to see so many of the same people lurking these forums after so much time :D Cheers.

PillowRock April 4th 06 22:51

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Quote:

My only nit-pick is that the Lyta actress could have done a much better job of ACTing while pulling off her deception of Ulkesh. Not slick at all :p But I love her anyway.

Ah, but is that Pat Tallman doing a poor job of playing Lyta, of Tallman doing a good job of playing Lyta as a bad actor.

vacantlook April 4th 06 23:08

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Quote:

Tallman doing a good job of playing Lyta as a bad actor.

That's how I've always seen the scene. Lyta's already had her ass knocked flat by Ulkesh at least once that we've seen. He's also made it well known to her that he doesn't give a crap about her; she's only there to service him and that's it, as far as he's concerned. She's been abused by him, so it would make total sense for me that she'd be scared out of her wits about having to deceive him into this ambush. And that fear would definitely make it more difficult for her to be deceptive. And I think that that's what we see from her in that scene: Lyta -- the character -- so scared that she -- the character -- can't pull off deception well.

GKarsEye April 5th 06 00:47

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Normally I might agree but Tallman so often delivered subpar performances (at least up until Byron's death) that I'm inclined to believe that this is just yet another one.

Elric April 5th 06 13:01

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
For the most part, I always like Tallmans performances and she was infinately better than Andrea Thompson IMO.

The only time she did a poor job was the episode on Mars when they are freeing Garibaldi. She goes on a bit being a good liar etc. I felt embarrased watching that, it was pretty terrible, but I guess part of that was probably the writing as well (sorry JMS).

Back on the topic though, I agree that Ulkesh was so arragant that he didn't consider the humans a threat. I never really thought about it that way before, so thanks for pointing it out.

KoshN April 5th 06 15:24

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Quote:

The only time she did a poor job was the episode on Mars when they are freeing Garibaldi. She goes on a bit being a good liar etc. I felt embarrased watching that, it was pretty terrible, but I guess part of that was probably the writing as well (sorry JMS).

Hmmmm, I liked her in that. Pat as Lyta seemed genuinely peeved and at the same time, caught off-balance and a novice at those kinds of interactions. It was a kinda funny. She's this super-powered teep who's acting like a regular person who's just had a joke played on her, and it went right over her head.

Alluveal April 6th 06 04:53

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
She IS a bad liar, though. That's why she was acting all squirlly when she was leading Ulkesh to doom. :)

And that's why she couldn't lie to Sheridan when she blew up Z'Ha'Dum. And it was Franklin who gulped. I just saw that episode again and I made sure to pay attention. Durn doctors....

Springer April 14th 06 11:13

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
I love this episode. Out of all the episodes, this one best portrays the epic, galaxy-wide war and looming devastation better than any other. The Vorlons with their planet killer, the army of light massing at B5, colonies and worlds all across the Galaxy falling, Ivanova announcing it all live on air, the defeat of Ulkesh and Londo's line to Sheridan: "Good luck to all of us" spells out how dire the situation is, but how the younger races are becoming united in their darkest hour. Plus perhaps the most chilling ending to an episode ever. Superb stuff, A star.

RW7427 April 14th 06 15:51

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Well said, Springer! :)

Shaal Mayan April 14th 06 16:19

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Excellant as stated above vorlon VS vorlon what could be better.

Elipsis November 19th 07 16:22

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
I really liked this one for many of the reasons stated above.

I'm giving it an A.

One question I'm hoping someone hear could answer. While Kosh and Ulkesh formerly had a respect for each other, it's clear to me that Kosh realized that Ulkesh had to be stopped.

However, it appears that

Quote:

Kosh went with the new vorlon into the ship, and that final blast was what did the job ultimately.


My question is about the "final blast." What caused it? B5 didn't shoot it. Does that mean that Kosh self destructed the ship somehow to destroy Ulkesh (and likely prevent immediately retaliation on B5). What exactly went on that caused the ship to blow and kill Kosh and Ulkesh? I'm assuming Kosh did it, but is there any clarification on this?

mattikake November 20th 07 13:15

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
My only question is, where do you lot get 'Ulkesh' from?! :s

Pat Tallman = terrible actor a lot of the time. No timing either. But she makes up for it with that stare and those black lenses she gives - Top.

Anyway good episode. Pleased that we get to see what Vorlons really look like and not being left with some fantastical uber-nerdy stuff...

Elipsis November 20th 07 13:55

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mattikake (Post 312594)
My only question is, where do you lot get 'Ulkesh' from?! :s

The Vorlon's real name was Ulkesh.

-JMS confirmed this and it is quoted in one of the Lurker's Guide pages.
-IMDB actually sites Ardwight Chamberlain as Ulkesh for those episodes
-The book "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" gives us his real name.

mattikake November 20th 07 16:01

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Ah right, so you need to be a nerd to know that.

I think I'll stick with what was only told in the official story and use Kosh or Kosh II ta... ;)

vacantlook November 20th 07 18:42

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mattikake (Post 312603)
I think I'll stick with what was only told in the official story and use Kosh or Kosh II....

The novel To Dream In The City Of Sorrows is official story; it's one of the several novels that jms has deemed canon (plus, it was written by his wife if I'm not mistaken). And when jms talks about something B5 in an official way in his online correspondence with fans, it has the same weight as if it was in an episode. Here's the returned results of searching for "Ulkesh" in the archive of his online posts.

KoshFan November 21st 07 04:52

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mattikake (Post 312603)
Ah right, so you need to be a nerd to know that.

You kinda need to be a nerd to watch B5 to begin with!

Kaz November 21st 07 10:04

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
As far as entertainment goes, this episode was very much up there with the top ones. Especially as we finally understand how and why G'Kar ended up losing his eye. And the Regent character was quirky yet amusing in some respects.

Truth_Seeker March 11th 08 20:34

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Absolutely an A.The fight between Kosh and Ulkesh was great.The episode reveals a lot about the Vorlons but also places some new questions:

1.Why all the humans who witnessed the fight saw the two Vorlons simply as pure light if all humans were manipulated to see them as angels?
2.What is the reason for the explosion of Ulkesh's ship?(My opinion is that the answer can be found in "Interludes and Examinations" where Delenn explains that Kosh's ship was built only for him.Probably Kosh wanted the fight to end inside the ship because he knew that the ship can't support two Vorlons at the same time and it will explode)

We can also see that despite their high level of evolution the Vorlons also have disagreements between themselves.

Galahad March 11th 08 22:49

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Truth_Seeker (Post 316444)
Absolutely an A.The fight between Kosh and Ulkesh was great.The episode reveals a lot about the Vorlons but also places some new questions:

1.Why all the humans who witnessed the fight saw the two Vorlons simply as pure light if all humans were manipulated to see them as angels?

Well I don't know what you were seeing...but they appeared to be squiddy/jellyfish type things to me! The reason they were seen for how they were, was because they were going Portuguese man o war et man o war, they were under too much stress to put up a "perception suit". Thats what Kosh telepathically used to disguise himself when saving Sheridan (and hence why he described the incident as causing him great strain).

Quote:

2.What is the reason for the explosion of Ulkesh's ship?(My opinion is that the answer can be found in "Interludes and Examinations" where Delenn explains that Kosh's ship was built only for him.Probably Kosh wanted the fight to end inside the ship because he knew that the ship can't support two Vorlons at the same time and it will explode)
I think the sudden release of energy overloaded the ship and blew it apart. I also think Ulkesh was making a break for it and Kosh stayed with him until the fight became fatal.

Oh and...

[spoiler]If you read one of the JMS short stories that was published in the B5 Mag, you discover that because Ulkesh's ship's fate differed to Kosh's, it is not the last you hear of it[/spoiler]

vacantlook March 12th 08 00:27

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
For a more detailed description of the short story jms wrote that Galahad references:

Spoiler for Hidden Agendas:
Sheridan had Ulkesh's ship's pieces brought back to Bay 13 to be studied, and while there the ship rebuilt itself. When Ivanova shows up at B5 commanding the new Warlock-class Titans, she reveals to Sheridan that she's discovered hidden Shadow-tech programming in the Titans's computer systems that would enable remote access to the ship's systems and let someone somewhere else take command away from the crew. To counter this, Sheridan and Ivanova place Ulkesh's rebuilt ship in one of the bays on the Titans, where it connected to the ship and now sits there continuously neutralizing the Shadow-tech.

Truth_Seeker March 12th 08 12:31

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Galahad (Post 316446)
Well I don't know what you were seeing...but they appeared to be squiddy/jellyfish type things to me! The reason they were seen for how they were, was because they were going Portuguese man o war et man o war, they were under too much stress to put up a "perception suit". Thats what Kosh telepathically used to disguise himself when saving Sheridan (and hence why he described the incident as causing him great strain).



I think the sudden release of energy overloaded the ship and blew it apart. I also think Ulkesh was making a break for it and Kosh stayed with him until the fight became fatal.

Oh and...

[spoiler]If you read one of the JMS short stories that was published in the B5 Mag, you discover that because Ulkesh's ship's fate differed to Kosh's, it is not the last you hear of it[/spoiler]


Truth_Seeker March 12th 08 12:37

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
That is a logical answer.Thanks Galahad.I suppose I should read the novels and the short stories before asking some of those questions.

Anyway it is one of the best episodes.

Estelyn October 9th 10 22:49

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
I must admit, I did have to look up "apotheosis" when I read this title! That would point to the Carthagia plot as being central, but there's so much going on that it's hard to see any one element as the main one. I continue to see similarities with Nero and the burning of Rome when he says of his planet "Let it burn."

The "shadow" cabinet is an amusing play on words, and I enjoyed this line: "Trouble with being infallible, you have to put up with everyone else making mistakes."

Sheridan comes across almost Messiah-like in the first scene, though he is the unwilling object of admiration. His resolve to kill the Vorlon is a surprise, and having Kosh involved, going against one of his own race, is an interesting twist.

After all that confidence and determination, it's amusing to see Sheridan's awkwardness when he proposes to Delenn.

Alioth July 1st 12 09:11

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn (Post 365370)
I must admit, I did have to look up "apotheosis" when I read this title! That would point to the Carthagia plot as being central, but there's so much going on that it's hard to see any one element as the main one. I continue to see similarities with Nero and the burning of Rome when he says of his planet "Let it burn."

The "shadow" cabinet is an amusing play on words, and I enjoyed this line: "Trouble with being infallible, you have to put up with everyone else making mistakes."

Sheridan comes across almost Messiah-like in the first scene, though he is the unwilling object of admiration. His resolve to kill the Vorlon is a surprise, and having Kosh involved, going against one of his own race, is an interesting twist.

After all that confidence and determination, it's amusing to see Sheridan's awkwardness when he proposes to Delenn.

I thought the title could apply to both Cartagia and Sheridan/younger races, in different ways. It was the first time Sheridan took a decisive stand against the Vorlons, which was a necessary step on the path of claiming the galaxy for the younger races and expelling the First Ones--which had "godlike" influence over the younger races, so when they were gone we would sort of move into their place (and hopefully do better), become our own "gods". In fact, I had first thought the title was referring to that, strangely, even though the Cartagia angle was more obvious.

I like the idea of "falling toward" apotheosis (godhood)--it sort of reflected the feeling of how things were really getting out of control then (whether by the madness of Cartagia, or the real uncertainty of how the new double threat of the Vorlons and Shadows would or could be dealt with).... Probably the most interesting episode title of the series.

Lennier's Tears February 15th 15 06:20

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
This is really good. It's very dark.. In tone I mean, although also in color. I agree with some of the other posters here about the episode title. Pretty much all Babylon 5 episodes have great, clever titles, and I've commented on that in other threads, but yea, this is a really good one.

It's interesting here that Sheridan isn't such a fan of the cult of personality building around him, here.

Ivanova's updates on "the situation" are pretty chilling. It's hard to really grasp the scale of the destruction. The Vorlon's are taking out whole worlds. There is nowhere to run. This is really terrifying.

The Centauri bits are great, again. Cartagia is magnificent, and I really like that Centauri emperor outfit. He wears it rather differently than Turhan did. I love how Cartagia flings the sides of the coat over the armrests of his chair as he sits. Plotting Londo is also great. He's very clever, and again, he knows just how to talk to Cartagia.

The Vorlon fight is pretty spectacular, and, finally, we get to really see Vorlons! They still look cool, even when not projecting their angelic faces. I always loved the idea of the living ships that are bound to individual Vorlons. Kosh gets to sacrifice himself again, good for him :p

This is also where we learn that Sheridan has 20 years to live, which I suppose is kind of an important plot point ... I like the conversation about this with Lorien and Delenn OK, but I'm not entirely crazy about the engagement ring/proposal bit after that. Like with most things I am not crazy about on B5, that is mostly just due to my own hangups. I think that's a pretty ridiculous tradition and I would like to see it gone before the 23rd century. I do like how awkward Sheridan can get when it comes to relationship stuff :p

Sheridan's haircut is excellent in this. I am pleased! :p

Mr.Garibaldi's newly enhanced paranoia comes out right from the start of this season. I remember being really worried about what was going on with him when I first watched this. Even though I now know exactly what is going on with him, the worry hasn't really left. All of his scenes kind of stress me out now!

Springer February 27th 15 08:55

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
And we're back to epic again with this episode. You truly get the sense of a galactic emergency, of everyone under threat. "Good luck to all of us" says Londo, and that sums the situation up. Everyone has got to join together, work together, or die. Petty differences are put aside in the face of the planet killers. And in the middle of all this, Sheridan plots to assassinate one of the First Ones. I always thought it was a shame that Earth never became involved in this story line, though if the Vorlons had kept on going, Earth would be in the firing line soon enough. It feels like the whole B5 story has been building to this – all out war, monsters from the dawn of time unleashed, and great moments of sacrifice and tragedy. SF on TV has never been this epic, not before or since.

Lennier's Tears February 27th 15 17:17

Re: EpDis: Falling Toward Apotheosis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 451217)
SF on TV has never been this epic, not before or since.

Agreed. And your posts sums it pretty well!

I really don't think I'll ever like another sci fi show as much as I like this one. It'd be great if something amazing came along, but I'm not going to be holding my breath.


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