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-   -   EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8811)

vacantlook February 10th 06 03:13

EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
Lurker's Guide Extend Synopsis for And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place

KoshFan February 10th 06 15:06

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
This one I like. The tension keeps right on increasing, and the ending sequence is downright creepy.

GKarsEye February 10th 06 16:21

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Best... ending.. ever!

fisheggs February 10th 06 20:18

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Creepy? :confused: It was great!! IIRC it was the first collaberation between Londo and G'kar since the fall of Narn, and showed Londo "waking up" from his nightmares and begin to deal with the consequences of his actions. Lots of great foreshadowing and I personally loved the way the end tied in to the title by interspersing the music with the message. A definite "A" from me.

Alluveal February 10th 06 22:53

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
I loved this episode. Refa's snobbery and smug demeanor was ever-present... until the very end, when he realized "I'm about to get my arms torn off by a bunch of pissed off narns." NO HIDING PLACE ON THE MOUNTAIN! YEAHHHHHH

Joseph DeMartino February 10th 06 23:57

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

"I'm about to get my arms torn off by a bunch of pissed off narns."

He wished it was just his arms. :)

Regards,

Joe

RW7427 February 11th 06 05:00

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Good stuff indeed. :D

And Refa getting what he deserved....nice! ;) :lol:

GKarsEye February 11th 06 06:33

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Does no one care that he was actually innocent of the crime he was killed for? No? :)

Alluveal February 11th 06 17:05

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Not one tiny bit. He got his comeuppance for a plethora of other crimes. =)

fisheggs February 11th 06 17:38

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

Does no one care that he was actually innocent of the crime he was killed for? No? :)


Nope. :D The only crime of which he was innocent of from Londo's monologue was Adira's death, which the Narn could care less about. Mass drivers and internment camps however, they had a keen interest in. :devil:

RW7427 February 11th 06 18:05

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

Does no one care that he was actually innocent of the crime he was killed for? No? :)

That man is about as innocent as Britney Spears. :lol:

hypatia February 11th 06 18:24

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

Quote:

Does no one care that he was actually innocent of the crime he was killed for? No? :)


Nope. :D The only crime of which he was innocent of from Londo's monologue was Adira's death, which the Narn could care less about. Mass drivers and internment camps however, they had a keen interest in. :devil:

I really need to rewatch the series. I can't remember, either. Wasn't it Londo who ordered the attack on Narn? But he didn't order the atrocities?

GKarsEye February 11th 06 18:28

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Londo did not order the attack on Narn. When Refa told Londo about what he was going to do, Londo was horrified. But he went along with it. And after that, he decided they had already reached the point of no return, so that when the inevitable post-mass-driver occupation atrocities were occuring, he knew about them and did his part, beaurocratically, to make them happen. He explains this to Vir when he rubbed it all in the face of that new Narn envoy who was sent to B5 for one episode (a favorite scene of mine).

The theme of remaining silent is repeated when Cartagia rips out G'Kar's eye, but that time in a more abstract and personal way.

hypatia February 11th 06 18:58

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Ah, right. Of course. Thanks.

So why do you say he was innocent of the crime then? (Refa?)

Shaal Mayan February 11th 06 19:34

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Excellant episode bringing about the end of Refa, he was killed of course for the wrong reason.Refa I think in the end got what he deserved he did bomb the Narn homeworld with mass drivers .

GKarsEye February 11th 06 20:17

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

Ah, right. Of course. Thanks.

So why do you say he was innocent of the crime then? (Refa?)

Londo had him killed because Morden told him that Refa killed her, when of course it was Morden who did it in order to get Londo working for the Shadows again. Londo told the Narn that he was reponsible for the horrors against them so that they'd have a personal (and therefore much more violent) stake in assassinating Refa, and that part was true.

A_M_Swallow February 11th 06 22:07

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
The other lie was on the data crystal. Refa had not betrayed the Centauri to the Narns.

Jade Jaguar February 12th 06 04:05

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
A very powerful ep, a personal favorite, in my top five. The cutting between the church service, and the end of Refa, with the gospel song over all, is compelling, and brilliant!

fisheggs February 12th 06 15:34

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

The other lie was on the data crystal. Refa had not betrayed the Centauri to the Narns.

That, as the saying goes, was just gravy! :D It ensured the fall of house Refa and strengthened the position of house Mollari.

Another point is that Refa was attempting to ally himself with the Shadows, something Mollari could not allow.

StarForBram February 13th 06 13:19

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Definitely one of my absolute favorite episodes of the entire series.

Elric February 13th 06 14:15

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Almost an A, but not quite.

The scene where Refa is getting killed with the Gospel music always wierds me out (in a good way) - only JMS would have joyous gospel singing whilst the antagonist gets what he deserves.

Great stuff, but when compared to the likes of Severed Dreams & Z'ha'Dum (A eps), it does not quite have enough to put it up their with the truly fantastic episodes.

Alluveal February 13th 06 16:28

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Hmph.. technomages!

GKarsEye February 13th 06 16:56

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
I actually like this one more than the Kick You in the Ass Change Everything in the Plot episodes like Severed Dreams. When the foundation is so strong, it's relatively kind of easy to make one of those huge episodes be good. But it's eps like Rock that make it all possible.

More importantly, this one just gets under my skin more. It's more sly and intricate and intimate. Come to think of it, this may well be a contender for my favorite episode.

aajay February 13th 06 17:00

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Great ending...great music. Refa got what he deserved, albeit for the incorrect reason. Definite A.

Ninja_Squirrel February 13th 06 17:55

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

More importantly, this one just gets under my skin more. It's more sly and intricate and intimate. Come to think of it, this may well be a contender for my favorite episode.

I agree.

As I've probably mentioned in the forums here before, seeing this episode when it aired for the first time was when I finally shook off some of my stubborn Star Trek geekitude and finally declared that Babylon 5 is better than Trek. As geeky as I was about Star Trek when I was in high school and college, coming to that conclusion was more significant than it my sound.

I think in terms of overall quality and excitement, there may be bigger, flashier, more arc-important episodes, such as Severed Dreams and Into the Fire. But, I would say I *like* this episode even better than WWE1&2, Shadow Dancing, Z'Ha'Dum, Into the Fire, Face of the Enemy, Endgame, etc. Off the top of my head, I might only like Severed Dreams more than this episode.

In fact, even if they're not usually considered the "best" episodes, it's often the quieter, more poignant episodes like Confessions and Lamentations and Passing Through Gethsemane that I put among my *favorite* episodes. In fact, Quality of Mercy is my favorite season one episode, and with competition from Babylon Squared and Chrysalis, I'm probably in the minority on that opinion.

Yeah, And the Rock Cried Out... is definitely one of my favorite hours of TV of all time.

Jade Jaguar February 14th 06 03:54

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

I actually like this one more than the Kick You in the Ass Change Everything in the Plot episodes like Severed Dreams. When the foundation is so strong, it's relatively kind of easy to make one of those huge episodes be good. But it's eps like Rock that make it all possible.

More importantly, this one just gets under my skin more. It's more sly and intricate and intimate. Come to think of it, this may well be a contender for my favorite episode.

Well said!

Springer February 14th 06 13:36

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
I dunno, I just find "The Rock Cried Out..." just a bit dull. Londo's fascinating as always with his scheming (how come he was never any good at poker? He should be a master at it!), and Refa's death is a great scene, but on the flipside there's the subplot with Sheridan learning to appreciate Delenn and involve her in his life more which just bores me. And the ending is cheesy, and really with all the hi-tech technology on B5 couldn't some computer have worked out the Shadow's plan much quicker than Sheridan?

Its also the last time we see Brother Theo. I can't decide if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I'm edging towards good thing.

I know its a breather between all the intense episodes, and I'm all for having episodes that aren't full of explosions and 'end of the world' conversations (for example, I actually like 'By Any Means Necessary'), I just don't particularly identify with this one. Are people rating it just based on the scene with the gospel music? (And didn't JMS write that gospel music? After Walkabout he seems to be on a songwriting roll)

Wait, why are you all looking at me like that?! Someone has to not like it!

hypatia February 14th 06 14:30

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

And the ending is cheesy, and really with all the hi-tech technology on B5 couldn't some computer have worked out the Shadow's plan much quicker than Sheridan?


If we could train computers to really think...

we'd create HAL. :)

Analysis is often something that, despite the wonders of computer technology, simply must be done by humans (at this point).

GKarsEye February 14th 06 14:45

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
No, that's cool. Your post got me to check out the detailled synposis to see if there's anything that I don't like. I found one minor quibble- that the clerics working as underground intelligence were from every major religion, one each. That's just so... I dunno, Sesame Street or something. Let's all hold hands and sing around the world kind of bullshit. Why did only the Baptist minister get a service? And he brought his gospel choir entourage with him?

But other than that my opinion of the ep stands. I'm also reminded of G'Kar's detailed instructions on how to kill Refa, when he's all up in his grill, "Leave the head intact for identification." Cold shit, dude.

Jan February 14th 06 15:05

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

(And didn't JMS write that gospel music? After Walkabout he seems to be on a songwriting roll)

No, JMS didn't write the gospel song. Some of the things he said about it from the Lurker's Guide:

Quote:

-Where does the title come from?
It's from an old gospel song/spiritual.

-Did Harlan Ellison suggest it?
No, as a rule, Harlan doesn't suggest titles; "Rock" came from the quote from the Bible, which was later made into a gospel song, used in the show. So it's a real song, though I did write 2 for "Walkabout."

-Why's it called that? Because it's quite appropos. How do we fit it? Not a big deal. Longest title up to now was one I did for MURDER, SHE WROTE, a quote from Moby Dick, "To The Last Shall I Grapple With Thee."

-The song in "Rock" is an old gospel song. I've always had a soft spot for old gospel songs and spirituals because of their wonderful use of language and imagery, and you can dance to 'em. Not that I dance, but the theory is there, at least.

Jan

KoshFan February 14th 06 17:51

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

Londo's fascinating as always with his scheming (how come he was never any good at poker? He should be a master at it!)

Probably because he was usually drunk.

PillowRock February 15th 06 16:35

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

I found one minor quibble- that the clerics working as underground intelligence were from every major religion, one each. That's just so... I dunno, Sesame Street or something. Let's all hold hands and sing around the world kind of bullshit.

On the other hand, if some Interfaith Council type of organization was sending a delegation, then that's exactly the kind of make-up that I would expect that delegation to have.


Quote:

Why did only the Baptist minister get a service? And he brought his gospel choir entourage with him?

I had actually always assumed that was a local church choir of people who lived on the station (since there was never any mention of anybody beyond the three of them making the trip), and that the fact that his denomination happened to have such an active local parish (or whatever the appropriate term is) was why he was presiding over the joint service. He was the visiting clergyman with proper credentials / certification to preside in that church.

Plus, of course, there is always the point that just because services of the other religions didn't fit into the 42 minutes of broadcast time does not *necessarily* mean that such services did not take place.

Joseph DeMartino February 15th 06 18:21

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

I found one minor quibble- that the clerics working as underground intelligence were from every major religion, one each.

It isn't like those guys were the entire organization. Each major religion sent one representative because spaceflight is still damned expensive. The larger religions would have more members and therefore more potential recruits, religious establishments in more countries and cities, more money, etc. Smaller religions may well have been involved, but lacked the numbers or wherewithal to send a delegate, and so were content to be represented by one of the others.

The Catholics may well only have been represented because Brother Theo and his monks were already in residence.

As was so often the case, JMS was drawing on history in setting this up. Religious organizations have acted performed secret intelligence work from time immemorial. The Spanish missionaries both reported on conditions in the New World and discoveries of minerals and other resources and tried to keep an eye on the governors sent out to exploit them. The Jesuits are famous for their skills as cryptographers and for moving information across borders undetected. (One of these days somebody is going to write the full story of the high stakes poker game played by Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan, John Paul II and Mikhial Gorbachev that started with the Solidarity movement in Poland and ended with the collapse of the Soviet Union. Priests and nuns were providing the West with a much more accurate picture of developments in Poland that the KGB was sending to Moscow - or the CIA to Washington, for that matter. ) During the Nazi era religious organizations similarly worked with local resistance forces, Allied intelligence agencies and military personnel, and one another to provide back channels of communication that were nearly invulnerable to penetration by the enemy, as ordinary spy rings were not.

Regards,

Joe

GKarsEye February 15th 06 20:23

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Yes, I know all that- my quibble wasn't with the logistics of it, it was the style. "Oh look, all the religions get along now." It's the kind of thing you'd see in Star Trek, where humanity conquers all its problems. Very unlike B5, were people are still assholes. Plus, the one-of-each-religion thing was done in Parliament of Dreams already. The whole thing is just too... I dunno... cute, I guess, for my tastes.

Joseph DeMartino February 15th 06 22:23

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

The whole thing is just too... I dunno... cute, I guess, for my tastes.

Well, at least they didn't actually join hands and sing "Kumbaya". :)

Joe

Sindatur February 15th 06 22:41

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

Quote:

The whole thing is just too... I dunno... cute, I guess, for my tastes.

Well, at least they didn't actually join hands and sing "Kumbaya". :)

Joe

Nah, that was in Season 5. "We will all come together in a better place..."

Alluveal February 15th 06 23:58

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Quote:

"We will all come together in a better place..."

/stabs self in mind's eye

I had blocked that out until now. You are a bad man, Sindatur.

RW7427 February 16th 06 04:40

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
I watched the ep with that song in it last night and I wanted to throw something at my TV and break it to get it to stop. :lol:

GKarsEye February 16th 06 15:31

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
B5 score CDs are popular items amongst fans. But what about a soundtrack album, featuring such hits as:

- And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place- B5 Gospel Choir
- That First Song that Franklin's Girlfriend Sings- Franklin's Girlfriend
- And We Will All Come Together (In a Better Place)- Byron and the Rogues
- Hokie Pokie- Londo Mollari
- Fishies- G'Kar
- Centauri opera excerpt- Londo w/ special guest Vir
- And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place (reprise)

KoshFan February 16th 06 16:12

Re: EpDis: And The Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
 
Only the Fishies track would be worth it.


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