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-   -   EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8800)

vacantlook February 6th 06 15:37

EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Grey 17 Is Missing
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Grey 17 Is Missing

KoshFan February 6th 06 18:59

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
I'm so terribly torn over this one. I love the Marcus/Neroon story, especially the last scene. And Jeremiah, while sounding in many ways like a darker version of Delenn, isn't that annoying.

But the Zarg is pretty ridiculous, and Garibaldi's method of killing it is more so, and frankly the buildup of Gray Sector as a place of True Spookiness is rather shredded by this ep....

So I don't really know what to give this.

Mike G February 6th 06 20:38

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Average. :)

hypatia February 6th 06 21:51

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
I'm just not voting. For the reasons KoshFan said.

How do you rate half great/half crap? :confused:

KoshN February 6th 06 23:30

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Quote:

I'm just not voting. For the reasons KoshFan said.

How do you rate half great/half crap? :confused:

C -- Average.


A -- Excellent + F -- Failure = C -- Average.

...just like Black + White = 50% Gray.

hypatia February 7th 06 00:35

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
KoshN is pulling math on me. :o

:lol:

I still won't vote. :p

RW7427 February 7th 06 03:51

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
The Marcus/Neroon part is the only thing that keeps me from giving it an F.

Jade Jaguar February 7th 06 04:31

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Argh, argh, *
I think I smell a Zarg!
Could it be a Targ?
No, not a Targ!
This be B5!
It MUST be a Zarg.
ARGH! ARGH! ARGH!

Well for JMS, it is at least in part, a D. But, I'll grade it as if it was STNG and give it a C.

*The above is not doggerel, it's zargerel.

Sindatur February 7th 06 14:11

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
I gave the Marcus/Neroon side of the story an "A" and the Grey 17 side of the story a "D", so, it balanced out to a low "B" overall.

GKarsEye February 7th 06 14:20

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Every time I see Garibaldi about to kill the Zarg with his physics-defying homemade shotgun I hope he's gonna turn it on Jeremiah and wipe him out. He is the 2nd most annoying character on B5.

Elric February 7th 06 20:27

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Average for me (C). Like most, the Marcus/Neroon story is good, the Jeremiah story is ok, but the Zarg is just pants (and I'm not even going to mention the "steam gun").

Quote:

Every time I see Garibaldi about to kill the Zarg with his physics-defying homemade shotgun I hope he's gonna turn it on Jeremiah and wipe him out. He is the 2nd most annoying character on B5.

Second most anoying, who is the first?

GKarsEye February 7th 06 21:11

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Lorien

Joseph DeMartino February 7th 06 21:49

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Quote:

Lorien

???? :confused: Did you forget about a guy named Byron? How about Jinxo? Man, I'd have to go through a long list of characters I found annoying on the series before I came to the name "Lorien". :)

Regards,

Joe

hypatia February 7th 06 21:52

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Really? Why? Was he a bit too all-powerful-and-yet-wishy-washy for you?

GKarsEye February 7th 06 21:59

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Byron did not annoy me as much as he did most. Yes I would very much like to punch him but he just doesn't make my skin crawl as much as Lorien.

Jinxo is too much of a putz to really annoy me. If anything, his mentor was much worse, but at least he died.

The Soul Hunter and Shaal Mayan are good candidates but still don't compare to Lorien when he goes off into tick-this and tock-that... yeah I'll fucking tick-tock you up upside your goddamn head you stupid old geezer.

Jade Jaguar February 8th 06 01:32

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Lorien is my favorite of the secondary characters, and I like the Tick & Tock bit very much, thank you! :p :p :p

I would say that, as far as B5 characters go, Lorien is at the opposite end of the spectrum from the Zarg.

RW7427 February 8th 06 04:05

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Lorien is cool!

Elric February 8th 06 12:48

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Lorien? I really like the character (and I think Wayne plays the role very well) and fail to see how he is anoying, but each to his own I suppose.

I also thought the tick-tock speach was also very good. Do you have a fear of clocks perhaps?

GKarsEye February 8th 06 15:13

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
You ever talk to someone who, after making a point, feels the need to drive the point home over and over again, and simply rephrase it differently? That can be really annoying and come off as arrogant.

I mean, it can just be kind of obnoxious and a little arrogant when someone says something, and you get it, but then he has to repeat it over and over again.

Like when someone arrogantly repetitively repeats something again. That sucks.

Elric February 8th 06 18:57

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
(post remove due to misunderstanding - sorry)

GKarsEye February 8th 06 19:13

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Zaw?
I was talking about Lorien using irony...

Elric February 8th 06 19:27

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Ha ha. Sorry, I thought your comment was aimed at me. I totally misread your post - I shall hang my head in shame!

Having re-read it, I can see what you are getting at.

Joseph DeMartino February 9th 06 03:17

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Quote:

(post remove due to misunderstanding - sorry)

Damn! I hate coming into a thread after the mistaken/embarassing/offensive post has been removed. It always makes me wonder what I missed. :D

GKarsEye February 9th 06 03:20

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Heh, yeah- Elric, we're a forgiving lot, everyone makes mistakes. Especially Joe. :)

(Joe, Elric just misunderstand my feeble attempt at irony- he thought my bitch about repeating shit was directed towards him, not Lorien)

Elric February 9th 06 10:20

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Quote:

Heh, yeah- Elric, we're a forgiving lot, everyone makes mistakes.

Thanks, I guess I had a bad day at the office ;)

Shaal Mayan February 9th 06 13:02

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
C the appearance of Neroon is the only thing that makes this episode watchable.The B story was laughable.

GKarsEye February 9th 06 15:51

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Nerd nitpick- I believe the Neroon thing was the B story, while Garibaldi's was the A story.

vacantlook February 9th 06 17:00

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Quote:

Nerd nitpick- I believe the Neroon thing was the B story, while Garibaldi's was the A story.

Yeah, I agree. It wouldn't make too much sense for the episode to receive its title from the B-story, so Garibaldi's romp would have to be the A-story. It's just that Garibaldi's romp is so bland and groan-provoking that it feels like it should be the B-story.

Joseph DeMartino February 9th 06 17:13

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
I think in this case the Garibaldi/Zarg thing was the "B" story, the Neroon/Marcus thing was the "C" story and the episode's real problem was that it didn't have an "A" story. :D Of course the Zarg part was made that much worse by the truly lousy rubber suit (one of the few time's B5's limited budget really hurt a story by undermining it to the point of distraction) and JMS's apparent belief the early firearms were steam-powered. :D

Still for me, in the form of the DVD, "Grey 17" is a great episode because I simply fast-forward through everything that doesn't involve Marcus, Delenn or Neroon. (In fact, I'm thinking of off-loading the ep to my PC and re-editing it into "'Grey 17 is Missing' is Missing". ;))

Regards,

Joe

Shaal Mayan February 9th 06 20:56

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Quote:

Nerd nitpick- I believe the Neroon thing was the B story, while Garibaldi's was the A story.



Oh boy did I goof :o

KoshN February 10th 06 15:33

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Quote:

Quote:

Lorien

???? :confused: Did you forget about a guy named Byron?

I keep trying to forget Byron, but people keep bringing him up! <Gag> :p

Aldous Gajic and Jinxo weren't annoying. Lorien certainly wasn't.

Annoying:
Byron (and any other character with RAD's voice) :p
Shon, M'Ola and Tharg (Believers - the kid and his parents)
Lianna Kemmer (Survivers)
Elizabeth Sheridan (Revelations)
Forell and Phillipe (Lines of Communications)
Religious #1 ( http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/gif/079/r4.jpeg from "Rumors Bargains
and Lies" - the guy who's talking)

...and several of the commentators in The Deconstruction of Falling Stars, although they were <u>supposed</u> to be annoying.

Henry Ellis (the carbon copy of James Carville)

Dr. Tashaki (the snarky asian famale commentator - She could play Herazade <Ptui!> any day! Perfect casting. :p :p :p )

Dr. William Exeter (the one who Delenn made ashamed of himself, along with Tashaki.)

Sindell (the head of the Ranger Council) - To Live and Die in Starlight (TLaDiS)

Elipsis October 29th 07 16:20

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Listening to the religious zealot glasses face guy repeat the same thing over and over again was fucking terrible. The perfect predator was useless (slow and not very bright - lumbering into the same steam pipe twice). That was a C- story.

On the other hand, I give the story of Marcus and Naroon a solid A. Great dialog and I contest that they deliberately scare you by playing very similar music to the "Kosh is dying" scene for part of Marcus's fight, making you think that this might be Marcus's last stop.

Plus the continuity from War Without End was satisfying.


Two observations:

1) Naroon is excellent at coming in to an episode like a total douche and leaving as an OK guy.

2) Marcus's fighting style consists primarily of facing the wrong way during the fight. Not very effective in my opinion... I suppose that's why he was beaten whereas Sinclair succeeded, lol.

Final grade = B.

Truth_Seeker April 1st 08 16:47

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
My opinion is also torn apart by the two stories.

The Marcus/ Neroon story is one of the best in the series so I give it an A+.

Garibaldi's story could have been done much better.Jeremiah and his fellows obviously were some kind of a religious group dedicated to the Minbari concept of the Universe.A great story could come out of this because we know that Garibaldi is not a very religious person.He said many times that he does not believe in souls and one of the main concepts of Minbari religion is the reincarnation.But instead of a wise person to "elighten" Garibaldi we see the nearly crazed and confused Jeremiah.A good idea but a bad realization.Not to mention the "favourite" Zarg monent.So this story gets a C.

Question:How many Zargs does it take to spoil a B5 good episode?
Answer:Just one if he moves his hands the right way;-)

Truth_Seeker April 1st 08 20:21

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
I want to object strongly to the way Garibaldi treated the Zarg in this episode:lol:

First, the friendly Zarg was probably just coming to say "Hi" and to offer Garibaldi and Jeremiah a piece of what's left of the maintenance guy.The poor fellow was waving his hands as a sign that he's happy to see them.But the cruel and pitiless Garibaldi just shot this vulnerable and unarmed creature without warning.He didn't even read his rights and had no evidence or witnesses that the innocent Zarg who was just hanging around did anything wrong.I simply call this police harassment.
:lol::lol::lol:

Estelyn September 19th 10 23:05

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Well, I certainly can't and won't argue with the general consensus regarding this episode - the "A" story is not one of B5's finest moments! It really feels way too small, not nearly significant enough to give the show its title. The danger does not feel big enough, and the mystery of the lost level falls flat.

The arc aspect, with Delenn's inauguration as Ranger One, is much weightier. Neroon's character development, Marcus' bravery, the dialogues between the two of them - including especially the final one in Med Lab! - are top notch. The cutting back and forth between the staid ceremony and the dramatic fight is great, as is the lighting effect with the fans in the background.

Seeing a very proud Minbari admitting to having learned a lesson from a human is a greater than life moment - though one could wish, of course, that Neroon would have continued to improve his character. He seems to fall back into old habits later on.

JoeD80 September 21st 10 22:49

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
^
He does continue to improve. Neroon appears in two back-to-back episodes next season and
Spoiler for season four:
although he first appears to be back to his old self, it's to get the Warrior Caste to the Starfire Wheel so that Delenn can put her plan into action. Neroon makes the ultimate sacrifice for the Religious Caste.

SkeleTony July 3rd 11 03:19

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Gave it an F. The Marcus/Delenn/Neroon parts simply were not terribly impressive to me and certainly not enough to overlook the "Grey 17" complete failure which seemed to take up 75% of the episode.


Edit: BTW, how many people realized that the technician who was killed before the opening credits is the guy from the show "Cold Case"(and one of UPS' commercials)? Must have been his very first on screen acting gig.

Bab5nutz July 3rd 11 20:05

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn (Post 365101)
Well,

Seeing a very proud Minbari admitting to having learned a lesson from a human is a greater than life moment - though one could wish, of course, that Neroon would have continued to improve his character. He seems to fall back into old habits later on.

Oh, I don't know. There is a certain scene in "Moments of Transition", and for the first time, he is questioning whether being Warrior Caste is all about killing

Alioth July 1st 12 11:30

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
I wonder, if this ep had a title having to do with the Delenn/Marcus/Neroon plot (say, "Den'Shar") rather than Grey 17, if it would still have been regarded by much of fandom as one of the worst B5 episodes.

Sindatur July 2nd 12 14:26

Re: EpDis: Grey 17 Is Missing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alioth (Post 399010)
I wonder, if this ep had a title having to do with the Delenn/Marcus/Neroon plot (say, "Den'Shar") rather than Grey 17, if it would still have been regarded by much of fandom as one of the worst B5 episodes.

I think you have a point, the Rangers side of the story is awesome, and very important to the overall arc, but, with that title, when many think back on the episode, it draws up memories of "Oh, that's that awful "Freddy Kruger" episode", and folks who aren't obssesive about B5 as some og us, don't realize it's also got the awesome Rangers story in it.


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