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-   -   EpDis: War Without End Part Two (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8745)

hypatia February 16th 15 02:28

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I hope you enjoy Crusade. I did, though wished it could have lived long enough to reveal more of its secrets.

Lennier's Tears February 16th 15 03:29

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I'm a little nervous about it to be honest. After what happened with the Lost Tales (I was disappointed), I'm not too willing to get my hopes up. Whatever happens, you'll have front row seats :p

hypatia February 17th 15 02:09

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
It's all a matter of taste. I wasn't a huge fan of the Lost Tales, either, actually.

But maybe a reboot gives a better chance at hitting a more relevant tone, these days. And a new cast (with let's say "classic appearances") wouldn't hurt the energy level, either.

But, if Valen's final fate was brought in only to give Sinclair an excellent write-off in the original series, will it be kept in a reboot? To me, it wouldn't be Babylon 5 without it.

Both Star Trek and Doctor Who have enjoyed excellent successes after their reboots. I do hope B5 fares as well. :bolian:

Lennier's Tears February 17th 15 02:25

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I agree that a reboot could be all kinds of amazing! And it could make it so that I could have obsessive Babylon 5 discussions with random people on the street. Right now that only happens when I am wearing a Star Trek shirt (I have quite a few Star Trek shirts and socks and other things, because they are so easy to get. I'd buy ALL the B5 stuff if it was available because I love it far more than Star Trek, even if I DO love Star Trek). But, I'll still be nervous about it because I'd be so sad if it sucked.

hypatia February 18th 15 01:20

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
:rommie:

Hopefully, a new generation of B5 fans wouldn't get caught up in the stupid politics of fan fighting. :bolian:

Lennier's Tears February 18th 15 01:55

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I kind of totally missed out on that. I mean I've heard people say stuff like "Babylon 5? Isn't that the DS9 ripoff one?", but I've never witnessed the actual fighting I've seen described in some threads here. I wasn't in the US when B5 first aired, maybe that has something to do with it. Or, maybe I've just always been surrounded by B5 fans more than Star Trek fans.

Incidentally, what's with the Star Trek smilies? :rommie: I guess those are easier to get than B5 ones, also :p

hypatia February 20th 15 02:47

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Antony, the owner and designer of this board, is actually a very active Star Trek fan.

And undoubtedly, the smilies would be easier to find for Star Trek.

Lennier's Tears February 20th 15 16:16

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Makes sense :)

I just found this :vorlon: on the expanded smiley sheet, too :D

Springer February 23rd 15 18:56

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I love Star Trek (well, the original series and TNG). I love B5. I never understood why people couldn't just like both. But yeah, I remember the downright hatred from some people. I wasn't online back then but I could pick up on it in the pages of the genre magazines and at cons.

Mororless March 15th 15 17:04

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I can understand the ill feeling from JMS but personally my view was that it was great having two side by side stories with a decent arc to them. DS9 took awhile to get going and maybe dragged on a bit too long but overall was probably my favourite Trek series. WWE is a pretty good example of the advantage of B5 though when it came to having a really well planned arc that was revelatory without feeling cheap or predictable.

Its interesting I would say that whilst you could argue that whilst the main plot of WWE feels a little bit side trackish its actually quite finely placed in the series. The episode afterwards we get the new Vorlon ambassador that hints at there less than pure motives and you could argue not having Kosh present helps sell the mystery of the plot.

hypatia March 17th 15 01:40

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I definitely understand JMS feeling ill about the franchise idea, details, and even format that were stolen from him to make DS9. And it's probably one of my favored of the Trek series, too, because that blueprint was quite brilliant and original.

I find it interesting that you felt WWE to be kind of a side track, and I felt it was the logical place for the entire series to culminate and end. :) It really was the plot twist to beat all plot twists. :bolian:

Xellina March 17th 15 04:29

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Wow, I never expected to find a B5 forum still alive! I just discovered that my favourite collection of B5 fanfics is gone for good, but then such a pleasant surprise!

On the topic, I also think that War Without End was an awesome episode. I remember trying to get my head around Valen being Sinclair when I just saw it, it was just so much more surprising and epic than everything I was used to in TV series at the time.

Crusade, on the other hand, seems like such a wasted opportunity. The best episode of the season, imho, was the one which was never filmed and only exists as a script. They took far too much time to hang around visiting planets of the week, instead of going to the arc, and the arc was always the main strength of B5.

Mororless March 17th 15 06:07

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 451316)
I definitely understand JMS feeling ill about the franchise idea, details, and even format that were stolen from him to make DS9. And it's probably one of my favored of the Trek series, too, because that blueprint was quite brilliant and original.

I find it interesting that you felt WWE to be kind of a side track, and I felt it was the logical place for the entire series to culminate and end. :) It really was the plot twist to beat all plot twists. :bolian:

I and I'd guess others that mention it ment "sidetrack" in terms of it relative to the story that had been developing at that point in the series which concerned the shadow war in the present and the breakaway from earth.

hypatia March 20th 15 02:04

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Yes, it was a sidetrack, I suppose. It was a way to kind of close off Sinclair's part of the story when it became apparent that he couldn't return to the show on a regular basis.

I assumed it was a jarring interruption of the major arc at that time just to make it all the more surprising. Shows you what I know about writing. :rommie:

Mororless March 20th 15 10:40

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 451327)
Yes, it was a sidetrack, I suppose. It was a way to kind of close off Sinclair's part of the story when it became apparent that he couldn't return to the show on a regular basis.

I assumed it was a jarring interruption of the major arc at that time just to make it all the more surprising. Shows you what I know about writing. :rommie:

I think JMS certainly looks to use the supprize factor on his favour in making sure that the characters themselves are caught as off guard by it as the viewer.

As was said earlier in the thread the flash forward to Centauri Prime does play into the existing plot well well. Its basically the first step in revealing the shift in the story that's going to take place away from "will we beat this ultimate evil?" to "how, why and at what cost do we get though this?".

Springer March 20th 15 11:09

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I think as well the timing of the episode is also down to the fact that it needs to be done before Z'Ha'Dum. Sheridan needs his flash forward to give him the motivation to go to Z'Ha'Dum, and if Sinclair had known about Lorien he may have been tempted to go to Z'Ha'Dum himself and end the war in the past.

Mororless March 20th 15 15:49

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 451331)
I think as well the timing of the episode is also down to the fact that it needs to be done before Z'Ha'Dum. Sheridan needs his flash forward to give him the motivation to go to Z'Ha'Dum, and if Sinclair had known about Lorien he may have been tempted to go to Z'Ha'Dum himself and end the war in the past.

Beyond that I think Sinclair going back before the viewer really suspects the Vorlons of having ulterior motives makes sense, Ulkesh's rather cold arrival at B5 in the next episode to me seems to single the start of that. WWE is also the only point that there isn't actually a Vorlon on B5 before Ulkesh is killed, I think that helps with the story as well putting the heroes more on their own.

hypatia March 21st 15 17:38

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 451331)
I think as well the timing of the episode is also down to the fact that it needs to be done before Z'Ha'Dum. Sheridan needs his flash forward to give him the motivation to go to Z'Ha'Dum, and if Sinclair had known about Lorien he may have been tempted to go to Z'Ha'Dum himself and end the war in the past.

That's an interesting idea. Sinclair seemed to work very cautiously around the entire issue of his travel back in time. He seemed completely faithful to the idea of not changing the future, how he truly had what you could call a "fate".

If he thought he could cut the the chase, though, would he have varied his strategy? As tempting as it would be, I suspect that the answer to that is "no".

The defeat came from the combined forces of all the alien races. Could the Vorlons have done it? Or did it take the combined forces that took another 1000 years of development, with Valen's added edge, that was the only possibility for breaking out of this horrific cycle?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mororless (Post 451332)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 451331)
I think as well the timing of the episode is also down to the fact that it needs to be done before Z'Ha'Dum. Sheridan needs his flash forward to give him the motivation to go to Z'Ha'Dum, and if Sinclair had known about Lorien he may have been tempted to go to Z'Ha'Dum himself and end the war in the past.

Beyond that I think Sinclair going back before the viewer really suspects the Vorlons of having ulterior motives makes sense, Ulkesh's rather cold arrival at B5 in the next episode to me seems to single the start of that. WWE is also the only point that there isn't actually a Vorlon on B5 before Ulkesh is killed, I think that helps with the story as well putting the heroes more on their own.

Yes, I also noticed that the moment we knew who Valen was, suddenly the Vorlon ambassador was extremely short-tempered with humanity. The placement of the story did work perfectly.

How can you come up with something that fits so well, and is so interesting as an episode itself, all in crisis mode because of a terrible thing happening to your absolutely key actor in the entire series?

I can understand how writing the vast majority of B5 really took its toll on JMS's health.

Springer March 22nd 15 10:58

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 451337)

That's an interesting idea. Sinclair seemed to work very cautiously around the entire issue of his travel back in time. He seemed completely faithful to the idea of not changing the future, how he truly had what you could call a "fate".

If he thought he could cut the the chase, though, would he have varied his strategy? As tempting as it would be, I suspect that the answer to that is "no".

The defeat came from the combined forces of all the alien races. Could the Vorlons have done it? Or did it take the combined forces that took another 1000 years of development, with Valen's added edge, that was the only possibility for breaking out of this horrific cycle?

I think he might have been torn – change the future and he could alter circumstances meaning he never travels back to become Valen, thus causing a paradox. But at the same time if he knew he could end the threat of the First Ones a 1000 years early, and prevent all the death that was to follow, I think Sinclair might have. The meeting with Lorien would have been interesting. Sinclair had plenty of things to die for – what would he have to live for?

Also, Walkabout was initially meant to air before War Without End, but they changed the production schedule so the two parts of WWE wouldn't get split up, according to JMS on the Lurker's Guide. Also in To Dream in the City of Sorrows, Sinclair writes his message to Garibaldi as a warning about the Vorlons – keep your friends close and your enemies closer – "Stay close to the Vorlon". So if we take that as canon it means Sinclair was already uncertain about the Vorlons. But yes, somehow it all came together rather neatly :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 451337)
How can you come up with something that fits so well, and is so interesting as an episode itself, all in crisis mode because of a terrible thing happening to your absolutely key actor in the entire series?

I can understand how writing the vast majority of B5 really took its toll on JMS's health.

Sometimes in a creative process being up against it and under pressure can bring the best results. As a writer, he was probably in his element, I reckon. As a producer, it was probably a nightmare for him making it work!

Mororless March 22nd 15 22:05

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I always took "stay close to the Vorlon" as simply advice that Kosh was a powerful ally against the Shadows. Even if Sinclair had some deeper knowledge of the Vorlons it wouldn't really make sense to be critical of Kosh who had a very different mindset to the rest of his race(or at least to the overall actions we see from them).

One thing that always interested me was that dispite seemingly being forced on JMS the shift from Sinclair to Sheridan just seems so natural. I'm not just talking about the hints at Sinclair being Valen early in the show but of the way his character was written. Whilst he has some issues with survivors guilt to me what stands out is how "enlightened" he is relative to Sheridan right from the start. He's really already turned his back on being a "career solider" or even fighting specifically for earth in favour of fighting for the greater good with a good deal of moral insight as to how to achieve this.

I spose that could just have been a different intension for his lead character from JMS at first but I think that by having a switch to Sheridan being a character finding his way a bit more he really does sell the "one who was" and the" one who will be" not just in terms of plot but in terms of the characters themselves. That is you buy that Sinclair was even early on in the series closer to the end of his personal story than Sheridan was when he appears.

hypatia March 23rd 15 02:50

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I'm not absolutely sure, but I think I did hear something about that being mentioned: JMS saying that even without a need to replace Sinclair, he'd have to have had a Sheridan since it would be just too much for one character.

Mororless March 23rd 15 07:05

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 451342)
I'm not absolutely sure, but I think I did hear something about that being mentioned: JMS saying that even without a need to replace Sinclair, he'd have to have had a Sheridan since it would be just too much for one character.

If I remember correctly he mentioned that towards the end of the first season he did see the need for a Sheridan like character although as I said I think Sinclair's "enlightenment" was present pretty much from the start of the series. I think its that switch from Sinclair to Sheridan that really makes side-lining the former and then ending his story quicker more credible.

Not sure how much of it was in the original plan but for me Delenn as the third part of that equation being the "one who is" shifts her role in the story after Sinclairs departure. Prior to that to me she seems to be treated more as a Kosh like(albeit obviously more personable) figure who will drive the Sinclair focused plot. When Sheridan arrives though her personal story and the drama involved in it seems to take on a greater focus arguably replacing some aspects of Sinclair's character.

Springer October 7th 15 14:11

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I watched this episode again last night on a whim and I'd forgotten just how epic it is, and boy is it fast paced! So much happens in 40 minutes compared to modern TV shows. I'm still trying to figure out whether cramming so much in is an advantage or disadvantage – a bit of both I suspect, but it makes for terrific viewing.

hypatia October 12th 15 02:22

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
It also helped hide the inevitable ending, just as Marcus mentioned. (Something about how "you've kept us all so busy that we didn't think about...")


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