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-   -   EpDis: War Without End Part Two (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8745)

vacantlook January 20th 06 02:25

EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for War Without End Part Two
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for War Without End Part Two

vacantlook January 20th 06 02:27

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Since there's a current thread already going for discussion of the ep, I figured I might as well go ahead and put up the thread for the poll for the ep too even though it was only a couple days ago that I put up the last poll.

For both part one and part two, I say excellent. :D

fisheggs January 20th 06 03:29

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I'd say amazing and excellent, considering these two are seasons apart. The original idea that this would occur in season 4, or maybe 5 shows the breadth of the vision, but I personally like the way it resolved the "Sinclair Question" and allowed the story to procede. Damn good, IMHO.

hypatia January 20th 06 13:31

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
This is what Babylon 5 was all about. And let's face it, confusing details aside, it's the best time-travel twist EVER written for a science fiction show. :)

Elric January 23rd 06 11:04

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

This is what Babylon 5 was all about. And let's face it, confusing details aside, it's the best time-travel twist EVER written for a science fiction show. :)

I agree 100%. When I first saw this and the Valen mystery was revealed, it was such a great moment. What a great twist :)

hypatia January 23rd 06 13:21

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I felt just like Marcus... when the realization dawned on him and he said something to the effect of "Dear god... a Minbari not born of Minbari..." :cool:

RW7427 January 24th 06 05:12

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I just watched these two eps, and I noticed something in part 2 that I never noticed before. In this ep, we see Londo's Keeper on his right shoulder, but in season 5, he gets the Keeper on his left. Is this an inconsistancy or might it be possible that the Keeper can switch sides if it wants to? Anyone have any thoughts?

Joseph DeMartino January 24th 06 05:51

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

In this ep, we see Londo's Keeper on his right shoulder, but in season 5, he gets the Keeper on his left.

Hump? What hump? - Igor, Young Frankenstein

Springer January 24th 06 10:06

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
This episode is much better than the first part, but it does suffer a little by having to jam so much plot into the episode, and the way the story got Delenn into that blue suit seemed a little contrived to me.

I wasn't completely surprised that Sinclair would become Valen because there were enough hints throughout the two episodes (could Marcus and Ivanova's conversation be any more obvious and clumsy?), and in previous episodes too (I'd never noticed the significance of the "You speak like a Minbari" line until this episode) but I would bever have guessed that Sinclair would turn himself into a Minbari! That did blow me away. So, if I'm being generous, I give this episode an A-.

Elipsis October 22nd 07 17:27

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
It's almost too much awesome to handle, Sinclair and Sheridan together.

Marcus's reaction is priceless, the realization that more or less he's been hanging out with the Minbari Christ-figure.

Time travel is always alittle bit hard to follow. Minor inconstancies aside, considering that time travel stories are almost always garbage, it's nice to see a careful enough job done that the story makes sense. I'm a little sketchy on writing yourself notes from the past, but I think it holds as long as you don't do something ridiculous like be both of your our own parents like that one short story whose name escapes me...

I'm not altogether thrilled with the "I have to do this because I've already done it," logic... but oh well. I could sit here and ponder time travel all post... but none of that takes away from the fact that the episode was excellent.

hypatia October 23rd 07 00:08

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Yea. I think it is one of my favorite (if not my #1 favorite) of the arc-related/arc-fulfilling stories. It was... fantastic. :cool:

Could someone run that thing with the suit by me again? The One(s) and, uh, when and why the suit switched hands so frequently? :lol:

But basically, this was the perfect way to "maybe-you-could-almost-see-it-happening" time travel story work. It ain't something you will use every day, or even twice.

As far as the acceptance of his fate, I don't see that as much reasoning it out as it "feeling right". He always "felt" he had some hidden, possibly great, destiny, and you get the impression it always haunted him that he had no real idea what that was. But suddenly, it all came together. And I bet it didn't even take much self-debate before he decided what he "must" do.

Ah, did he make the ultimate sacrifice, or did he embark upon the ultimate adventure? I guess it's all how you look at it. :)

Anyway, yes, fantastic story, and truthfully the one that I'll always see as being the "real payoff" to the Babylon 5 story arc.

mattikake October 23rd 07 17:52

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Yep. Great bombshell for referring back and it was something you could guess. I suspected Sinclair was Valen long before Marcus summed it up. It starts you second-guessing every epsiode after that. :)

Best one for insistent skeptics who admit they were surprised and impressed by the referral back to 2 years ago. Babylon squared wasn't just a standalone episode.

And "the beginning of the story, the middle of the story and the end of the story, that makes up the next great story" kinda puts everyone in their place - that B5 is just one story the universe has to tell...

crazyhorse October 24th 07 00:39

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
One thing that always confused me and seemed unresolved was the scene where Sinclair said to Deleen that it still all happened as he remembered :confused:

Was he not older then?How did he come back?As a human too.

Or have I just got stuff mixed up again :lol:

Elipsis October 24th 07 14:23

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyhorse (Post 311565)
One thing that always confused me and seemed unresolved was the scene where Sinclair said to Deleen that it still all happened as he remembered :confused:

Was he not older then?How did he come back?As a human too.

Or have I just got stuff mixed up again :lol:


You've got stuff mixed up again.

Galahad October 24th 07 19:34

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyhorse (Post 311565)
One thing that always confused me and seemed unresolved was the scene where Sinclair said to Deleen that it still all happened as he remembered :confused:

Was he not older then?How did he come back?As a human too.

Or have I just got stuff mixed up again :lol:

Sinclair is referring to his attempt to warn Garibaldi to "watch his back" prior to the events of "Chrysalis". If he'd succesfully got word to Garibaldi, Santiago might never have been assassinated and the Earth Civil War might have been delayed or averted. This would mean that Earth would possibly be more actively involved in the coming Shadow War, against the Shadows. Also Catherine Sakai would in all likelihood not have ended up being sucked through the rift in sector 14. However it could have had disastrous implications too:
  • Sinclair never becomes Ranger One on Minbar, as he is never reassigned by Clarke.
  • Sheridan doesn't become commanding officer of Babylon 5 and never meets Delenn, nor has his critical encounter with Morden.
Losing those two important segments from history would severely interfere with the spacetime continuum which would prevent B4 going back in time, make the Shadows come back twice as strong. Delenn would never be born because Valen never existed... the Minbari culture would be entirely different... and the Earth minbari War probably never happened because the Minbari are both a fundamentally different and weaker culture in that alternative universe.

So it's a pretty good job Sinclair's good intentions failed tocome to fruition.

Obviously prior to Michael O'Hare leaving, that clip was going to reference bigger things that would have made a lot more sense, but you can't have your cake and eat it.

I remember seeing the the One's encounter with Sinclair from first time around... and I always believed that to be Sinclair as well. I thought JMS was making a double reference to Michelangelo's "Creation of Man" and the Oroubouros snake.

crazyhorse October 26th 07 01:59

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I was not thinking of the warning given .As I said I'm probably mistaken and my DVD's are lent out at this moment so I can't check it but I was sure you seen an older Sinclair talking to Deleen at some point.I thought it might of had something to do with his finding of Catherine and just of been another unused story arc.

Elipsis October 26th 07 05:04

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyhorse (Post 311632)
I was not thinking of the warning given .As I said I'm probably mistaken and my DVD's are lent out at this moment so I can't check it but I was sure you seen an older Sinclair talking to Deleen at some point.I thought it might of had something to do with his finding of Catherine and just of been another unused story arc.



But he BECOMES older Sinclair in the middle of the episode and they explain why.


:confused:

Telepath October 26th 07 09:41

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

Obviously prior to Michael O'Hare leaving, that clip was going to reference bigger things that would have made a lot more sense, but you can't have your cake and eat it.
I was hoping to get some information on this in Script Book vol. 7. Sadly, it contained none. And neither does the book with "Babylon Squared" in it. I'm waiting for volume 15, but I suppose that the outline will not mention such a small detail. Still, it's such details that I would have liked to see in the Script Books.

Kaz November 23rd 07 13:14

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I absolutely loved the character of Zatharus. Shame they had to leave him behind. Oh well, at least there are 9 more of him out there. :)

Jan November 23rd 07 14:12

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
And he/they're running for President! :beer:

Jan

Truth_Seeker May 29th 08 18:21

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
This has probably been discussed before but I've noticed a small difference between "Babylon Squared" and "WWE".When Delenn told Sinclair "We have to go" in "Babylon Squared" it was visible that she was wearing a red cloth.In "WWE" she was dressed in brown.I wonder how could JMS miss that small but important detail.

Jan May 29th 08 19:34

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
He didn't miss it, there jsut wasn't a way to work it in without taking up episode time. There's another difference in the explanation of how Zathras got there.

Jan

Truth_Seeker May 31st 08 19:06

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 322783)
He didn't miss it, there jsut wasn't a way to work it in without taking up episode time. There's another difference in the explanation of how Zathras got there.

Jan

Thanks Jan.I hadn't niticed the part about Zathras before.

I'm surprised that they just didn't dress Delenn in red from the beginning of "WWE".It would be much easier than finding a way to do it in the middle of the story.What were they thinking-that she had a secret wardrobe hidden somewhere in B4;).

Estelyn September 18th 10 21:46

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
This episode blew me away the first time I saw it, and the effect is still the same upon rewatching now. I watched it twice, back to back, and couldn't just move on to the next episode afterwards. There's so much emotional intensity from all of the characters.

In the flash forward Londo says that letting John and Delenn go is his last chance for redemption. That would be in accordance with Lady Morella's prophecy - though not killing the one who is already dead would also seem to apply. After all, Sheridan died on Z'ha'dum prior to that.

Sinclair reaching out to touch his past self also reminded me of Michelangelo's painting! The fact that The One consists of three is more than just a coincidental reference to the Biblical Trinity, imo - God is three in one.

As for the time travel - oh, what a tangled web! But it's done as excellently as such a premise can be done, with very tantalizing peeks into the future - and the past.

The more I see of Zathras, the more I wonder about who he really is and how deep his knowledge and abilities really go. What he does here is no mean task! In "B squared" and the first part, it's easy to see him as a bumbling comic relief character. But he too has his destiny - I wonder what his role is in Minbari's past?! Nonetheless, I love his humorous monologues.

The most gripping moments are those between Sheridan and Delenn in future captivity. JMS said he was going to do their first kiss differently, and he sure did! Seeing how deeply they love each other is heartwarming - and heartbreaking.

And Sinclair as Valen has to be the greatest comeback of a character in a science fiction series! What a turn of events, making him a mythological hero.

"That door is closed forever" - I'm glad JMS chose to put an end to any speculations about future use of the time rift in Sector 14. Anything that comes after this would be anticlimactic.

hypatia September 19th 10 02:38

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Including Sinclair, now.

It's the most amazing episode in the series. And it felt like the "end" of the series, in a way.

Don't get me wrong, there was plenty of story to go, I know that. But somehow, this always feels like the end of the story, to me.

It's always such a shame to see a work of JMS the he couldn't complete. He is at his best when he can complete his thoughts.

rjb September 19th 10 14:37

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
:)

Several years ago, when the British Sci-Fi channel showed the whole series, they had a whole load of `awards` to (notionally) give out for various features, from `best spaceship` (Shadow battlecrab, I believe - a long time ago, now) to `best recurring character` (either Bester or Zathras - my vote went to Zathras :p as, much as I admired Walter Koenig's acting, I'd never vote for `creepy`) to `best plot twist` (and many others that I'm afraid I've forgotten, though I'm almost certain Marcus won something). The top answer (I've also forgotten numbers 2 - 5, alas :rolleyes:) for `best plot twist` was indeed the transformation of Sinclair into Valen. I don't think the fantastic `idea` really impacted on me (the first time), despite Marcus' sudden moment of understanding, until Zathras actually showed the 2 Minbari warriors (and therefore us) what had happened. I, too, was `blown away` :eek:.

(And I agree: "The One Who Was, the One Who Is and the One Who Shall Be" was indeed a bit pointed ;).)

JoeD80 September 21st 10 23:31

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 365074)
It's always such a shame to see a work of JMS the he couldn't complete. He is at his best when he can complete his thoughts.

Joe got all five years, so don't know what you're getting at.

fisheggs October 1st 10 09:52

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeD80 (Post 365124)
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 365074)
It's always such a shame to see a work of JMS the he couldn't complete. He is at his best when he can complete his thoughts.

Joe got all five years, so don't know what you're getting at.


:angel: Crusade.:devil:

hypatia October 2nd 10 06:56

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Crusade and Jerimiah. Both were series that I enjoyed and hated to see dropped so soon.

Alioth May 12th 12 11:37

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
We see Delenn tell Sheridan, in the "time flash", not to go to Z'ha'dum--knowing what would happen, I can sort of see why from a personal standpoint (he'd be limited to 20 more years of life, and at the time of that scene the end of that was coming close)--but what would have happened had he not gone?

The conditions by which Sheridan could bring together the younger races, and convince the First Ones to leave the galaxy, would not have been there. The "unexpected door" he opened, bringing the Vorlon-Shadow conflict to a real, direct head rather than it remaining just one more proxy war like the ones before it, had initially devastating consequences (planet destroyers deployed and such)--but it was probably the only way the younger races could see them for what they had become, and reject their influence. In the end it might have saved more lives than would have been lost in another round (and who knows how many more rounds) of First One-inspired galactic wars as had been the pattern of history--and fulfilled a task that would inevitably have to be fulfilled at some time or other (younger races "growing up").

Delenn of course would have understood all this from retrospect, yet still made an attempt to change the past. A very "human" moment to be sure. The Minbari side of Delenn would have understood the necessity of her and Sheridan's sacrifice for the "big picture"--interesting that that didn't prevail, in that one moment when she tried to alter the past by telling Sheridan not to go to Z'ha'dum. No doubt Sinclair/Valen faced similar temptations to try to alter the timeline with his influence.

Galahad May 12th 12 12:27

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alioth (Post 396961)
No doubt Sinclair/Valen faced similar temptations to try to alter the timeline with his influence.

He definitely did. Remember in the second part of War Without End (when he already know he is going to become Valen), he tried to reach Season 1 Garibaldi by warning him to "watch his back". Personally I though that even if he'd have got through to him that was going to be too oblique for him to pick up. After all, it seemed the Universe itself had been trying to give him the same hint verbatim throughout the entire first season.

Also if you read the comic "In Valen's Name", you find out that (don't uncloak the spoiler if you haven't read the comic and want to read it).

Spoiler for Sinclair's action as Valen:
Valen tries to leave a note with his allies for Delenn... warning her of the Earth-Minbari War... but he is stopped by a vorlon.

The tale ends with this conclusion:

Quote:

"My name is Valen... and I have served my people like no other. I led them into fire... into darkness... into death... and they followed me without hesitation. They acclaim my victories and hail me as a great leader. They speak of my successes as if they are as infinite as the stars. And yet, for all that I've accomplished... I lie awake, listening to the screams of the dead and dying, those who are already gone, and those are yet to be born. A few words from me could avert the Earth-Minbari conflict. A warning to Delenn or Duhkat... But without the war, there would be no Babylon 4 and no Babylon 5. There would be no rallying point against the Darkness... and the Shadows would win, now and a thousand years from now. I cannot deviate from the circle of which I am a part. I am the beginning of the story, as Zathras said... and a prisoner of it. I dare not change the end. Still... it's been a good life... lives... over all. Delenn, Susan, Michael... if any of you see this somehow.. don't cry for me. For in the final analysis, I've always been too hard on myself. I'll be content to let history judge me, and all that has been done in Valen's name. And as for me... I've received my own reward, because I've found her. At long last... I've found... her."
Incidentally I've amended that last quote so it reads as jms intended it (infamous misprint in the comic)

Lennier's Tears February 9th 15 22:07

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I love this two-parter a lot. I have such a hard time picking favorites, but during this re-watch, as I got to Messages from Earth - Point of No Return - Severed Dreams, I was thinking "this must be it right here, the high point of the season" (or of the whole show, perhaps?). But then of course there's War Without End. And I'm right back to "no, never mind, I'm not even going to try to pick". It's so great because it builds on a storyline that was introduced two seasons ago, not just quickly thrown in in the previous episode. It makes everything fit together nicely. It's really very satisfying to have the Babylon Squared mysteries resolved, and see how everything fits with the Shadow War, the Minbari prophecies, and everything else. It would still work if you hadn't seen Babylon Squared, too. It's kind of easy to forget that sort of thing, from a 2015 point of view with a full DVD collection on hand, but that must have been a pretty big concern for producers and such. I think they pulled it off really well.

My comments below are really about both part I and II, so "much apologizings" if I mention something here that was only in part I :p

So ... is there a raccoon infestation on Epsilon 3 or what? That sure is an interesting costume Zathras is wearing. I do love the Zathras character(s). He is funny, but not just comic relief. He's basically orchestrating this whole time jump thing (based on Draal's instructions, but still).

Those messages B5 starts picking up from themselves .. pretty chilling. I'm sort of surprised everyone seems so cool about this. I suppose they're trained military, they are constantly in dangerous and/or creepy situations, and they have been dealing with this Shadow war threat for a while now, but still. If I heard/saw a recording of myself amidst the destruction of my space station, I imagine I'd be a bit unsettled :p Anyway, I like that story element a lot. Creepy messages from a future that will come to pass if you fail at a specific undertaking. It also means, I suppose, that in an alternate universe, that is exactly what did happen to you.

Sheridan in the future: A very interesting preview of the Centauri Prime/Keeper storyline. "The war is never entirely over". It wouldn't be Babylon 5 if the Shadow War was won and everyone lived happily ever after, now would it? :p As for the "first kiss" thing, you know, I'm not sure I even realized that the Delenn/Sheridan first kiss isn't technically really a "first" kiss as such, until I saw/heard other people talking about it (I'm very perceptive :p ). How cleverly done! I really like that the Delenn/Sheridan relationship evolves slowly. Aside from the fact that that makes sense for them to not have too much time to relax and/or be alone, because they both have SO MUCH important stuff to deal with, it's just more realistic in general. It annoys me to no end that many tv/movie relationships seem to be based on nothing at all. People go from "hi, I'm so-and-so" to "I love you" in about five seconds. You don't know anything about that person! Sheridan and Delenn, on the other hand, had plenty of time to get to know each other.

"A Minbari not born of Minbari": I love the Sinclair = Valen reveal. It's fun to watch with people who are new to the show and see the realization dawn on their faces, much like Marcus' at the end of WWE pt II. After 20-ish years, it's still exciting to see Sinclair turned into a full Minbari, with his shiny Vorlons. But, more than that, it's just so cool how it fits with the whole Minbari background. Minbari spirituality isn't just a bunch of details invented to give the culture a bit of color. "In Valen's name" isn't just something to say to make them look more distinct from humans or other races. It all ties together with the main storyline of the show. This is excellent stuff.

Jan February 9th 15 22:43

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
I'm not commenting much but please keep writing. I'm enjoying your posts a lot!

Jan

Lennier's Tears February 10th 15 00:18

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Thank you, I certainly will! :) Apparently I have a lot to say! I guess I have almost 20 years of comments saved up and now that I'm letting them out, I don't think I can stop!

Once I'm done with all of the Babylon 5 episodes, I'll be watching Crusade for the first time ever! I only just bought it. That should be interesting ... I don't yet have any comment saved up for that.

RW7427 February 12th 15 18:33

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 451068)
I'm not commenting much but please keep writing. I'm enjoying your posts a lot!

Jan

I agree! I don't always have time to read through all of them or to make detailed comments of my own, but it's always nice to see that there are still people discussing B5 after so long! :)

Lennier's Tears February 13th 15 01:54

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
It IS nice to see people are still discussing Babylon 5 after all this time, and it's not just me with my weird obsession :lol:

RW7427 February 14th 15 19:07

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Well, your obsession has brought some life back to this forum I must say. :lol:

Lennier's Tears February 14th 15 20:27

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Well, good. I don't think my weird obsessions have every been useful to anyone in any way :p

hypatia February 15th 15 02:10

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
It could help inspire me to buy the series, finally. :)

Lennier's Tears February 15th 15 03:19

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
 
Now THAT would be a useful thing indeed! :D

You might be able to get it fairly cheap now ... I just bought the Crusade DVD set for something like $12.


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