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-   -   EpDis: War Without End Part Two (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8745)

Galahad May 12th 12 11:27

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two

Originally Posted by Alioth (Post 396961)
No doubt Sinclair/Valen faced similar temptations to try to alter the timeline with his influence.

He definitely did. Remember in the second part of War Without End (when he already know he is going to become Valen), he tried to reach Season 1 Garibaldi by warning him to "watch his back". Personally I though that even if he'd have got through to him that was going to be too oblique for him to pick up. After all, it seemed the Universe itself had been trying to give him the same hint verbatim throughout the entire first season.

Also if you read the comic "In Valen's Name", you find out that (don't uncloak the spoiler if you haven't read the comic and want to read it).

Spoiler for Sinclair's action as Valen:
Valen tries to leave a note with his allies for Delenn... warning her of the Earth-Minbari War... but he is stopped by a vorlon.

The tale ends with this conclusion:


"My name is Valen... and I have served my people like no other. I led them into fire... into darkness... into death... and they followed me without hesitation. They acclaim my victories and hail me as a great leader. They speak of my successes as if they are as infinite as the stars. And yet, for all that I've accomplished... I lie awake, listening to the screams of the dead and dying, those who are already gone, and those are yet to be born. A few words from me could avert the Earth-Minbari conflict. A warning to Delenn or Duhkat... But without the war, there would be no Babylon 4 and no Babylon 5. There would be no rallying point against the Darkness... and the Shadows would win, now and a thousand years from now. I cannot deviate from the circle of which I am a part. I am the beginning of the story, as Zathras said... and a prisoner of it. I dare not change the end. Still... it's been a good life... lives... over all. Delenn, Susan, Michael... if any of you see this somehow.. don't cry for me. For in the final analysis, I've always been too hard on myself. I'll be content to let history judge me, and all that has been done in Valen's name. And as for me... I've received my own reward, because I've found her. At long last... I've found... her."
Incidentally I've amended that last quote so it reads as jms intended it (infamous misprint in the comic)

Lennier's Tears February 9th 15 21:07

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
I love this two-parter a lot. I have such a hard time picking favorites, but during this re-watch, as I got to Messages from Earth - Point of No Return - Severed Dreams, I was thinking "this must be it right here, the high point of the season" (or of the whole show, perhaps?). But then of course there's War Without End. And I'm right back to "no, never mind, I'm not even going to try to pick". It's so great because it builds on a storyline that was introduced two seasons ago, not just quickly thrown in in the previous episode. It makes everything fit together nicely. It's really very satisfying to have the Babylon Squared mysteries resolved, and see how everything fits with the Shadow War, the Minbari prophecies, and everything else. It would still work if you hadn't seen Babylon Squared, too. It's kind of easy to forget that sort of thing, from a 2015 point of view with a full DVD collection on hand, but that must have been a pretty big concern for producers and such. I think they pulled it off really well.

My comments below are really about both part I and II, so "much apologizings" if I mention something here that was only in part I :p

So ... is there a raccoon infestation on Epsilon 3 or what? That sure is an interesting costume Zathras is wearing. I do love the Zathras character(s). He is funny, but not just comic relief. He's basically orchestrating this whole time jump thing (based on Draal's instructions, but still).

Those messages B5 starts picking up from themselves .. pretty chilling. I'm sort of surprised everyone seems so cool about this. I suppose they're trained military, they are constantly in dangerous and/or creepy situations, and they have been dealing with this Shadow war threat for a while now, but still. If I heard/saw a recording of myself amidst the destruction of my space station, I imagine I'd be a bit unsettled :p Anyway, I like that story element a lot. Creepy messages from a future that will come to pass if you fail at a specific undertaking. It also means, I suppose, that in an alternate universe, that is exactly what did happen to you.

Sheridan in the future: A very interesting preview of the Centauri Prime/Keeper storyline. "The war is never entirely over". It wouldn't be Babylon 5 if the Shadow War was won and everyone lived happily ever after, now would it? :p As for the "first kiss" thing, you know, I'm not sure I even realized that the Delenn/Sheridan first kiss isn't technically really a "first" kiss as such, until I saw/heard other people talking about it (I'm very perceptive :p ). How cleverly done! I really like that the Delenn/Sheridan relationship evolves slowly. Aside from the fact that that makes sense for them to not have too much time to relax and/or be alone, because they both have SO MUCH important stuff to deal with, it's just more realistic in general. It annoys me to no end that many tv/movie relationships seem to be based on nothing at all. People go from "hi, I'm so-and-so" to "I love you" in about five seconds. You don't know anything about that person! Sheridan and Delenn, on the other hand, had plenty of time to get to know each other.

"A Minbari not born of Minbari": I love the Sinclair = Valen reveal. It's fun to watch with people who are new to the show and see the realization dawn on their faces, much like Marcus' at the end of WWE pt II. After 20-ish years, it's still exciting to see Sinclair turned into a full Minbari, with his shiny Vorlons. But, more than that, it's just so cool how it fits with the whole Minbari background. Minbari spirituality isn't just a bunch of details invented to give the culture a bit of color. "In Valen's name" isn't just something to say to make them look more distinct from humans or other races. It all ties together with the main storyline of the show. This is excellent stuff.

Jan February 9th 15 21:43

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
I'm not commenting much but please keep writing. I'm enjoying your posts a lot!


Lennier's Tears February 9th 15 23:18

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
Thank you, I certainly will! :) Apparently I have a lot to say! I guess I have almost 20 years of comments saved up and now that I'm letting them out, I don't think I can stop!

Once I'm done with all of the Babylon 5 episodes, I'll be watching Crusade for the first time ever! I only just bought it. That should be interesting ... I don't yet have any comment saved up for that.

RW7427 February 12th 15 17:33

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 451068)
I'm not commenting much but please keep writing. I'm enjoying your posts a lot!


I agree! I don't always have time to read through all of them or to make detailed comments of my own, but it's always nice to see that there are still people discussing B5 after so long! :)

Lennier's Tears February 13th 15 00:54

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
It IS nice to see people are still discussing Babylon 5 after all this time, and it's not just me with my weird obsession :lol:

RW7427 February 14th 15 18:07

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
Well, your obsession has brought some life back to this forum I must say. :lol:

Lennier's Tears February 14th 15 19:27

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
Well, good. I don't think my weird obsessions have every been useful to anyone in any way :p

hypatia February 15th 15 01:10

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
It could help inspire me to buy the series, finally. :)

Lennier's Tears February 15th 15 02:19

Re: EpDis: War Without End Part Two
Now THAT would be a useful thing indeed! :D

You might be able to get it fairly cheap now ... I just bought the Crusade DVD set for something like $12.

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