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-   -   EpDis: Ship Of Tears (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8714)

vacantlook December 29th 05 15:50

EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Ship Of Tears
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Ship Of Tears

RW7427 December 29th 05 16:41

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
I like this ep. While I reserve A's for the heavy hitters like Z'Ha'Dum, Falling Toward Apotheosis, and The Long Twilight Struggle, this one is about as close to A as you can get. The parts with Bester are actually good, and we even get to see Bester as human. :lol: I also like the parts with G'Kar in them. The scene where Delenn tells him the reasons for their decision not to do anything about the Shadows and the Centauri acting against the Narns is good. I also like the part in the warroom at the end where they all realize that they can use telepaths against the Shadows.

hypatia December 29th 05 17:05

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Quote:

"'Some must be sacrificed if all are to be saved.'...Now I understand that is as much about how we got here, as where we are going. I think that one sentence is the greatest burden I have ever known."

That's one of the less-quoted great moments in B5.

GKarsEye December 29th 05 17:29

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Best... scene... ever!

KoshFan December 29th 05 17:56

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
The only problem I have with this episode is this: what are the odds that Bester's lover just happens to be on the ship?

Other than that, a truly bang-up ep. (Is this the one where G'Kar gives Ivanova the lecture on how his infinite patience has looped back on itself?)

A_M_Swallow December 29th 05 18:09

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Quote:

The only problem I have with this episode is this: what are the odds that Bester's lover just happens to be on the ship?


I would say the probability was high. Mars has only got 8 times the population of Babylon 5 so there will only be a small number of teeps there. Consequently it is likely that there is only one teep prison on Mars. Bester's Psi Cop duties would cause him to visit it frequently.

The main organisation of the transportation of the teeps may occur on Earth but the movement of the prisoners from the prison to the spaceship would have to be delegated to people in the Psi building and spaceport on Mars. Bester's "contacts" then told him about this unusual operation.

KoshFan December 29th 05 18:54

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Hmm. Good point.

KoshN December 29th 05 22:38

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Quote:

The only problem I have with this episode is this: what are the odds that Bester's lover just happens to be on the ship?

Well, she is a P10, and a strong teep would be more valuable/less vulnerable. ;)

Boxie December 30th 05 16:03

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
:D I really liked this episode! I can't say I was surprised Bester's lover was on that ship, :o more that Bester had a lover...??

I don't mean that in a mean way, but he always comes off so cold...heartless, and yet she found a way to break through that. It just set me off my pins a little to see him display that level of emotion for anyone, and to admit this vulnerability to Sheridan.

I also thought Claudia did a great job in this one. There's a rocking of Ivanova's soul whenever Bester's around, a mixture of fear and anger. I don't know what Claudia uses to invoke that kind of reaction, but it works for her every time...and for me! :D

Sindatur December 30th 05 19:42

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Boxie, if you haven't read the PsiCorps Trilogy, you need to. Lots of emotion shown by Bester in Books 2 and 3, chronicling his entire life.

Boxie December 30th 05 19:47

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
I confess I haven't read any of the books, but I want to! :D Maybe I'll make it my New Year's resolution! :D

KoshN December 31st 05 13:46

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Quote:

I confess I haven't read any of the books, .....

You're missing a helluva lot, ...a HELLUVA LOT.

Dark Genesis - The Birth of the Psi Corps
Deadly Relations - Bester Ascendant
Final Reckoning - The Fate of Bester


#7 The Shadow Within
The Passing of the Technomages (Del Rey trilogy)
The Passing of the Techno-Mages - Book I - Casting Shadows
The Passing of the Techno-Mages - Book II - Summoning Light
The Passing of the Techno-Mages - Book III - Invoking Darkness
I left the book series title in there because it's "Techno-Mages" in the books, but vastly prefer "Technomages." Looks less awkward.


Legions of Fire (Del Rey trilogy)
Book I - The Long Night of Centauri Prime
Book II - Armies of Light and Dark
Book III - Out of the Darkness


#9 To Dream in the City of Sorrows

Boxie December 31st 05 23:37

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
:D Thanks, KoshN...for the list, I mean! The truth is I haven't read any because I wasn't sure where to start! :( I guess those books are hard to find, huh? Well, at least I have a list to work off of....thanks again, and Happy New Year! ;)

RW7427 December 31st 05 23:48

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Read and enjoy! ;)

KoshN January 1st 06 20:26

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Quote:

:D Thanks, KoshN...for the list, I mean! The truth is I haven't read any because I wasn't sure where to start! :( I guess those books are hard to find, huh? Well, at least I have a list to work off of....thanks again, and Happy New Year! ;)


Here's the info. with ISBN#s. I would have made this better looking, but I'm in a rush to get to New Years dinner and my mouse is dying (Think I've worn it out. No, it's not dirty.), so nothing's cooperating.

Just read "The Shadow Within" before the Technomage trilogy.

<u>Title, Author, ISBN(s), Publish Date(s), Publisher(s)</u>

Book#7 The Shadow Within Cavelos, Jeanne 0-440-22348-2, 0-345-45218-6 April 1997, December 2002 Dell, Del Rey

Book#9 To Dream in the City of Sorrows Drennan, Kathryn M. 0-440-22354-7, 0-345-45219-4 July-1997 Dell, Del Rey



Dark Genesis - The Birth of the Psi Corps Keyes, J. Gregory 0-345-42715-7 October-1998 Del Rey

Deadly Relations - Bester Ascendant Keyes, J. Gregory 0-345-42716-5 March-1999 Del Rey

Final Reckoning - The Fate of Bester Keyes, J. Gregory 0-345-42717-3 October-1999 Del Rey



Legions of Fire - Book I - The Long Night of Centauri Prime David, Peter 0-345-42718-1 December-1999 Del Rey

Legions of Fire - Book II - Armies of Light and Dark David, Peter 0-345-42719-X May-2000 Del Rey

Legions of Fire - Book III - Out of the Darkness David, Peter 0-345-42720-3 November-2000 Del Rey



The Passing of the Techno-Mages - Book I - Casting Shadows Cavelos, Jeanne 0-345-42721-1 March-2001 Del Rey

The Passing of the Techno-Mages - Book II - Summoning Light Cavelos, Jeanne 0-345-42722-X July-2001 Del Rey

The Passing of the Techno-Mages - Book III - Invoking Darkness Cavelos, Jeanne 0-345-43833-7 December-2001 Del Rey



Replaced the mouse with an extra I had for the notebook PC. It was the mouse.

Shaal Mayan January 2nd 06 16:13

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
IN ADDITIION TO THE ABOVE BOOKS THERE ARE ALSO 7 OTHERS THAT EVERYONE DOESN'T MENTION CAUSE THEY THINK THEY ARE CRAP .I WILL LIST THEM HERE AND LET YOU MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION.


1 VOICES BY John Vornholt
2 ACCUSATIONS BY LIOS TILTON
3 BLOOD OATH BY John Vornholt
4 CLARKS LAW BY Jim Mortimore
5 THE TOUCH OF YOUR SHADOW THE WHISPER OF YOUR NAME BY Neil Barrett, Jr
6 BETRAYALS BY S. M. Stirling
8 PERSONAL AGENDAS BY Al Sarrantonio

Joseph DeMartino January 2nd 06 16:36

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
The additional 7 books have also been out of print for years. The original trilogies and reprints of To Dream and Shadow are still available from Del Rey as far as I know.

RW7427 January 2nd 06 16:37

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
THANK YOU FOR REMINDING US OF THOSE. AND WHY ARE WE TYPING IN ALL CAPS?

**Blinks**

:lol:

Personally I've enjoyed reading almost all of the books, even the numbered ones. :)

KoshN January 2nd 06 20:41

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Quote:

IN ADDITIION TO THE ABOVE BOOKS THERE ARE ALSO 7 OTHERS THAT EVERYONE DOESN'T MENTION CAUSE THEY THINK THEY ARE CRAP .I WILL LIST THEM HERE AND LET YOU MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION.


1 VOICES BY John Vornholt
2 ACCUSATIONS BY LIOS TILTON
3 BLOOD OATH BY John Vornholt
4 CLARKS LAW BY Jim Mortimore
5 THE TOUCH OF YOUR SHADOW THE WHISPER OF YOUR NAME BY Neil Barrett, Jr
6 BETRAYALS BY S. M. Stirling
8 PERSONAL AGENDAS BY Al Sarrantonio

Geez, quit shouting.

IMHO, 1 thru 3, 6 &amp; 8 are not crap. They are just nowhere near as good as 7, 9, and the three trilogies. The problem is, there are some mistakes, some of the situations are implausible, and/or the characterizations are off.

Book#1 "Voices" - Vornholt, John - 0-440-22057-2 - March-1995 - Dell

Book#2 "Accusations" - Tilton, Lois - 0-440-22058-0 - May-1995 - Dell

Book#3 "Blood Oath" - Vornholt, John - 0-440-22059-9 - October-1995 - Dell

Book#6 "Betrayals" - Stirling, S.M. - 0-440-22234-6 - June-1996 - Dell

Book#8 "Personal Agendas" - Sarrantonio, Al - 0-440-22351-2 - May-1997 - Dell




Also, to call 4 &amp; 5 crap, is to insult crap, and 5 was worse than 4.

Book#4 "Clark's Law" - Mortimore, Jim - 0-440-22229-X - February-1996 - Dell

Book#5 "The Touch of Your Shadow, the Whisper of Your Name" - Barrett, Jr., Neal - 0-440-22230-3 - April-1996 - Dell



Here's three more that nobody mentioned:

"A Call to Arms" - Sheckley, Robert - 0-345-43155-3 - January-1999 - Del Rey
"In the Beginning" - David, Peter - 0-345-42452-2 - January-1998 - Del Rey
"Thirdspace" - David, Peter - 0-345-42454-9 - July-1998 - Del Rey

Of those, the Peter David books are the best. Sheckley's "A Call to Arms" while decidedly inferior to Peter David's novelizations, still did clear up some things I didn't pick up from the movie, so it wasn't a complete waste of time.

KoshN January 2nd 06 20:49

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Quote:

The additional 7 books have also been out of print for years. The original trilogies and reprints of To Dream and Shadow are still available from Del Rey as far as I know.

I'll have to re-buy the three trilogies. Mine are getting decidedly frayed, with pages yellowing, and bits of the covers coming off. Wish they'd put them out in three hardbacks. Yeah, I know. Never going to happen.

Shaal Mayan January 2nd 06 21:28

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
I wanted to make sure I had everyone's attention so I typed in all caps.IMHO 1,23 are the best and the ones I wil reread over again.If your referring to the Psi Corps,technomage,centauri are in hardback I know I have them.

Joseph DeMartino January 2nd 06 21:48

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Actually, I think The Science Fiction Bookclub issued the three B5 trilogies in single-volume ombnibus hardcover editions. Don't know if they're still available, but I suspect they turn up on eBay if they exist.

Regards,

Joe

Shaal Mayan January 2nd 06 22:29

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
They are from the science fiction book club but the only way you can get them now is through ebay,amazon or barnes and noble .I got one from the latter technomage I think,Psi corps came from a comic store and the other amazon.

KoshN January 3rd 06 00:19

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Quote:

They are from the science fiction book club but the only way you can get them now is through ebay,amazon or barnes and noble .I got one from the latter technomage I think,Psi corps came from a comic store and the other amazon.

You're saying that it might be possible to get more copies of the paperbacks I already have, through Amazon or Barnes &amp; Noble, not the omnibus hardcover editions, correct?

KoshN January 3rd 06 00:29

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Quote:

Actually, I think The Science Fiction Bookclub issued the three B5 trilogies in single-volume ombnibus hardcover editions. Don't know if they're still available, but I suspect they turn up on eBay if they exist.

I should've bought them. No hits at Science Fiction Book Club today.

Shaal Mayan January 3rd 06 14:05

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Quote:

You're saying that it might be possible to get more copies of the paperbacks I already have, through Amazon or Barnes &amp; Noble, not the omnibus hardcover editions, correct?


That's the only hardcover editions I know of are the ombinus editions by the science fiction book club edition .What else did you think I was refering to ?Keep dreaming about realeasing indiviual ones. If you want indiviual copies of each book then make it yourself .I was only making suggestions and the only hardcovers I know of are the science fiction book club editions.

KoshN January 4th 06 21:08

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Quote:

Quote:

You're saying that it might be possible to get more copies of the paperbacks I already have, through Amazon or Barnes &amp; Noble, not the omnibus hardcover editions, correct?


That's the only hardcover editions I know of are the ombinus editions by the science fiction book club edition. What else did you think I was refering to?

See below the **************************************** line.



Quote:

Keep dreaming about realeasing indiviual ones. If you want indiviual copies of each book then make it yourself.

:confused: :confused: :confused: If I want individual copies of each paperback in each of the three trilogies, all I have to do is re-buy them at Amazon, WaldenBooks, Barnes &amp; Noble, Borders or elsewhere. I want each of the three trilogies as <u>one book each</u>, in <u>hardback</u>, i.e. the onmibus editions. Reason: The hardbacks would not degrade as fast as the pulp paperbacks, and would be sturdier.




****************************************
You said:

Quote:

They are from the science fiction book club but the only way you can get them now

Presumably the "they" and "them" are referring to the omnibus editions (hardback), because you linked "they" and "them" with "the science fiction book club." BUT then you go on to say:


Quote:

... is through ebay,amazon or barnes and noble.

Hence my :confused:confusion :confused: about amazon or barnes and noble having the omnibus editions.



Quote:


I got one from the latter technomage I think,Psi corps came from a comic store and the other amazon.
They are from the science fiction book club but the only way you can get them now

I thought ONLY the Science Fiction Book Club EVER handled the omnibus editions of the Psi Corps, Legions of Fire, and Technomage trilogies.

Joseph DeMartino January 4th 06 21:24

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Good afternoon everyone, and welcome to today' s section of "English as a Second Language"

:)

Joe

KoshN January 4th 06 22:22

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Quote:

Good afternoon everyone, and welcome to today' s section of "English as a Second Language"

:)

Joe

So, do you think:

Quote:

They are from the science fiction book club but the only way you can get them now is through ebay,amazon or barnes and noble .I got one from the latter technomage I think,Psi corps came from a comic store and the other amazon.

...was unambiguous?

Jan January 4th 06 22:53

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
I did but there could have been a few extra words in there to make it more clear. I'd've written it:

"They are from the science fiction book club but the only way you can get them now is <u>as used books</u> through ebay,amazon or barnes and noble . (and then the message continues to explain where that poster got his/her copies.

Jan

KoshN January 4th 06 23:28

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Quote:

I did but there could have been a few extra words in there to make it more clear. I'd've written it:

"They are from the science fiction book club but the only way you can get them now is <u>as used books</u> through ebay,amazon or barnes and noble . (and then the message continues to explain where that poster got his/her copies.

Jan


AHA!!!!!!! (as Jan does the Charlie Brown triple back flip due to surprise/shock) :lol:

Forgot Amazon and Barnes &amp; Noble sold used books. I associated those names only with new books.

Springer January 9th 06 09:12

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
I like Ship of Tears- I give it a B. Its got Bester, its got Shadows, its got some nice G'Kar/Delenn scenes, the unveiling of the War Room, the discovery that telepaths can stop Shadow vessels, some nice stuff at the beginning with Sheridan testing the Thunderbolts, and the scenes in Medlab with Carolyn are pretty creepy, and look totally different to anything seen in the series up to this point. Really really well designed, great cinemtography, good direction. The only problem is that with all this stuff going on, it also feels a bit transitional, and theres no conclusions- although at this stage in the series, you wouldn't expect any- its full speed ahead!

Elipsis October 15th 07 20:02

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
A.

The two greatest parts of this episode are more complexity being added to Bester's character, and the touching scene between Delenn and G'kar.

Estelyn September 16th 10 13:59

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Excellent episode! This marks a turning point, the discovery of a possibility to defeat the Shadows.

ISN is back, but there's a difference - that glib, cheerful reporter's voice, reading government propaganda, lets us know very quickly that all is not well on that front.

Delenn and G'Kar - wonderful moments. First her decisiveness to face him with the truth: "The choice is mine, the responsibility is mine." (Again, compare this to Londo's attitude to choice.) Her compassion really shines in the scene, and G'Kar's attitude to forgiveness has changed - for the first time, he says "perhaps" instead of "never".

Bester is an unexpected guest, and we see him from an unusual point of view - as a human and as a partner. We find that his is an arranged marriage - that rings a bell somewhere. Wasn't there a reference to PsiCorps arranged marriages in an earlier episode?

The introduction of the War Room at the end is both ominous - war will come - and hopeful - we will be prepared.

Alioth July 28th 11 04:03

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
"One must not thump the Book of G'Quan--it is disrespectful."

Bab5nutz July 28th 11 06:50

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn (Post 365048)

Bester is an unexpected guest, and we see him from an unusual point of view - as a human and as a partner. We find that his is an arranged marriage - that rings a bell somewhere. Wasn't there a reference to PsiCorps arranged marriages in an earlier episode?

.

Two episodes actually.

In "A Race Through Dark Places" a fugitive telepath tells Talia of how she was forcibly inpregnated when she refused to marry the man Psi-Corps chose for her. And how her child was taken from her at birth.

In "Soul Mates" we learn that Talia herself had a marriage arranged for her by the Corps - to the slimy Matt Stoner. Talk about a mismatch!

The forced pregnancy mentioned in "Dark Places" makes my curious about something. What would be the status of IVF in the 23rd century? And surrogacy? To my mind there would be little need in the 23rd century to forcibly impregnate a woman. All Psi-Corps would needed to have done, would be to have harvested some of the woman's eggs, and done IVF and used a surrogate. It's quite common, even now.

Lennier's Tears February 8th 15 23:21

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Well, look at that, Mr. Bester has feelings! I see that's been discussed at length in this thread, and I now know which books to read to learn more about Bester and his feelings. I have not yet read any of the Babylon 5 books or comics, although I did recently order "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" (while watching the first season, on a whim I googled "What happens to Catherine Sakai after Sinclair travels through time?" or something similar, and was lead to that book). I haven't yet read it, though. I don't know why I seem to be waiting until after I'm done watching all the episodes .. Not like there's anything I have't seen before that might be spoiled ...

I'm kind of surprised that people are so optimistic about ISN returning. I mean, I'm sure they're happy that there's going to be something on and they won't be so disconnected, but surely they'll have to know that ISN is still operating under President Clarke's regime? They were all there when ISN went offline, they saw how it went ...Especially Ivanova, she has never been much of an optimist, now has she? :p

I feel for them when that chipper anchor starts telling great big lies, and happy, optimistic expectation is suddenly over.

It's interesting that whenever a group of people are watching an ISN broadcast on a public TV somewhere in the Zocalo, a single person can turn it off (by saying "off!!", no less :p), and no one else in the audience ever says "Hey, I was watching that!!"

The new Star Furies are pretty neat. Who is that behind Sheridan in the one Star Fury? Just a random unnamed pilot?

Bester's elaborate plan to get to Babylon 5 is an interesting one .. and necessary, I suppose. It's an interesting new "alliance". The bits with him on the White Star are pretty funny. The frozen telepaths part is mostly just sad ... especially the one that wakes up and entangles herself with all the electronics in medlab.

The parts with Delenn and G'Kar are great. I can't help but feel bad for the both of them.

Garibaldi is pretty funny in his smugness as he waits for everyone to arrive in the war room. "Do not THUMP the book of G'Quon .. it is disrespectful!" is a pretty good line, too :D And what a great "reveal"! The Shadows don't like telepaths! A weapon, at last!

Springer February 10th 15 10:22

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451060)
I have not yet read any of the Babylon 5 books or comics, although I did recently order "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" (while watching the first season, on a whim I googled "What happens to Catherine Sakai after Sinclair travels through time?" or something similar, and was lead to that book). I haven't yet read it, though. I don't know why I seem to be waiting until after I'm done watching all the episodes .. Not like there's anything I have't seen before that might be spoiled ...

It's pretty good, one of the best tie-in novels and I think considered 100% canon by JMS (his ex-wife did write it after all). I'd read it after watching War Without End, just so you can refresh your memory about Sinclair's storyline. The book also shows you the other side to Sinclair's message to Garibaldi in Coming of Shadows and Rathenn, who is in the book and also some of the comics is also in WWE and Grey 17.

You might also want to read the comic series In Valen's Name. The art is a bit iffy, the story is okay but it ties in with WWE and To Dream In the City of Sorrows. Join all the pieces together and the ending to Sinclair's (and Sakai's) story is quite satisfying though look out for a huge typo at the end of the comic.

In fact, read all the comics they all tie into the series one way or another.

Lennier's Tears February 10th 15 21:32

Re: EpDis: Ship Of Tears
 
Thanks, I will try to get my hands on all of these!


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