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-   -   EpDis: Point Of No Return (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8646)

darth_librarian November 25th 05 09:04

Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return
But you did'nt.... ;)

KoshFan November 25th 05 13:28

Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return
Precisely. Obviously an oversight on the part of JMS, not to give me his own creation to... further create.

Jade Jaguar November 26th 05 15:57

Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return
I'll give your now abandoned theory one thing. Morden could qualify as "one who is already dead," since he was on the Icarus, and supposed to be dead. But, even if JMS hadn't said so, I still think it was Sheridan, for the reasons stated by others.

KoshFan November 27th 05 01:18

Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return
Morden's supposed death on the Icarus (and Sheridan's resulting comment that "He is supposed to be dead") are indeed critical for my theory.

Elipsis September 30th 07 22:44

Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return
I absolutely loved the cinematography of a near riot going on during Sheridan's announcement of martial law. Brilliantly contrived, and Lady Morella's words will continue to stir in my mind for the rest of the series.

Estelyn September 15th 10 15:02

Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return
Lady Morella is indeed a fascinating character, and I'm pretty sure JMS wrote some very symbolic dialogues that reference the fact that Majel Barrett also is (was) the widow of Gene Roddenberry, carrying on his legacy. The fact that Londo gives her a tour of B5 is a cross-reference to having an influential Star Trek star as a guest actress, imo.

I agree that the prophecy must remain unclear - that is the nature of prophecy. Lady M correctly says, "The future reveals itself only reluctantly." One thing that JMS brought up when talking about it hasn't yet been mentioned here - the fact that she only *says* "the eye that does not see". It could be "I"! I'm not quite sure how that would work out, but it's an interesting point.

There are quite a few memorable lines in this episode: "Intelligence has nothing to do with politics" may have been spoken by a Centauri, but it can also be applied to short-sighted Earth politics. Ta'Lon's "Not all replies are answers" is another great line, as is Sheridan's "Always plant a lie inside a truth".

I really like the way the cinematography picks up on the aspect of two opponents. We see the orders from Earth being transmitted in cuts back and forth between the officers and the General, and the liason and his Night Watch personnel. That gives two different points of view as well as dividing up the amount of information given to the viewers.

Later we see the two teams, officers and Night Watch, approaching the trap in cuts back and forth. Then we see it through Zack's eyes, when he's told by each of the opposing sides that he's done the right thing. He's been uncomfortable for awhile, though we don't get told what pushed him over the line to support Sheridan and Co.

Lady Morella, as befits a guest star of such magnitude, gets the weightiest line of the whole episode: "There is always choice." Up to now, Londo has tried to make himself a victim of circumstances, one who has no choice. Does he now begin to realize and accept his responsibility?

Alioth June 2nd 12 08:25

Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return

Originally Posted by Estelyn
I agree that the prophecy must remain unclear - that is the nature of prophecy. Lady M correctly says, "The future reveals itself only reluctantly."


Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 245254)
Is "the man who is already dead" Refa, Morden, or Sheridan?


I like the idea that it can be any of them--for different reasons (but with a general similarity). One way I looked at the quote "don't kill the man that is already dead", though, was that it implied there was no real need to kill such a person (i.e. he's "already dead", killing him would essentially be "overkill")--and that aspect seems to point to Morden, in that once the Shadows on Centauri Prime were destroyed, Morden was pretty much ineffective and no longer posed a threat*. No need to kill him (as he was "dead"--inert--in a figurative manner of speaking), but plenty of vengefulness drove Londo to do so anyway. Although it wasn't Morden's death that motivated the Drakh to take the specific vengeance they did on Londo and the Centauri, but the killing of their "gods" (Shadows) on that planet--so I'm not sure if the outcome there would have been different if Londo sent Morden on his way after nuking the Shadow base, or kept him in some Centauri dungeon indefinitely without killing him.

There's somewhat of a good case for Refa too though--that the same vengefulness that led to Londo killing (half-poisoned) Refa, was what wrapped him more tightly in the hands of Morden and the Shadows, perhaps making the horrendous path he'd go down inevitable from that point (and, might Refa have ended up the "keepered" Emperor instead otherwise?).

Sure JMS answered the question of his intent, but it's interesting that we can see how other interpretations can also make sense within the arc, in different ways. To me, that's a credit to the author, that he can weave a tale richer in layers than even he'll acknowledge (or may even be aware of). He's created a universe larger than himself, a work with a life of its own, and that's a good thing.

*Edit to add: except for the question of whether the Vorlon fleet would have destroyed Centauri Prime just for Morden's presence there--"anyone touched by Shadows". We see Londo was even willing to sacrifice his life as the planetkiller approached, when Vir pointed out there was still someone there touched by Shadows. But at any rate, Londo may have felt Morden a threat to his world still, but it is heavily implied that his killing Morden and putting his head on a pike was done mainly out of fury for Morden killing Adira and playing him as he did.

Alioth June 2nd 12 09:54

Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return
This is the specific ep of the three-parter where the Nightwatch is tricked and trapped (in a clever "use the letter of the law" kind of way, like we've seen other times). While the next ep is where the actual declared separation of B5 from Earth occurred, there was absolutely no stopping that (well either that, or a successful clampdown by Earth, but the die was cast) from this point. This was Sheridan's moment of truth, indeed "the point of no return". The moment we've been waiting for since at least "The Fall of Night" was here, finally.... Sheridan finally took an overt and decisive stand (and conditions were ripe for him doing so) against the Shadow-darkened EarthGov, as we'd known he must eventually.

I'm not sure if I like this ep or the one following it more, but I know my heart really cheered when Nightwatch was successfully neutralized, and Sheridan effectively took control of B5 away from EarthGov. This, to me, is when the de-facto break with Earth occurred--the question from this point was whether it would succeed or not (answered in the next ep). The whole three-parter ("Messages from Earth" through "Severed Dreams") was amazing TV detailing this process of separation, which we've been waiting and wanting to see for awhile.

vvalkerboh June 21st 12 03:41

Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return
Lady Morrelas prophecies
1. "save the eye that does not see" refers to the The eye in "Signs and Portents"
2.must not "kill the one who is already dead," I think was the emperor in "The Coming of Shadows"
Now Lady Morrela said he failed 2 of the prophecies the 3rd he must "surrender to [his] greatest fear, knowing it will destroy [him]." i think is his allowing the drak to control him to rid his planet of influence

vacantlook June 25th 12 01:18

Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return
Morella didn't say that he had failed the first two of the three she named, she said, "You still have three opportunities to avoid the fire that waits for you at the end of your journey. You have already wasted two others." So he had five total. Since "Signs And Portents" and "The Coming Of Shadows" happened before she spoke to him, they couldn't be what she was referencing in the three she detailed to him, but I think one could argue that they might have been the other two she said he had already wasted.

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