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-   -   EpDis: Dust To Dust (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8574)

maneth September 21st 07 11:46

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
No, not all hybrids are sterile, especially not in the plant world. Lions and tigers can crossbreed to form ligers (male lion + female tiger) and tigons (male tiger and female lion). Their habitats normally never intersect in the wild, so any breeding is accidental in zoos, or possibly intentional among people who breed exotic "pets".

Male ligers and tigons are sterile, but female ligers may breed with either lions or tigers to produce li-ligers or ti-ligers, although these are usually rather sickly and probably sterile. Hybrid vigor works well within a species, bringing in more variety into the genome (i. e. mongrel dogs are usually healthier than pure breeds), but not necessarily in the rare cases when interbreeding between closely related species is possible.

It hasn't been proved that H. sap. ever interbred with Neanderthals.

I always thought that passing beyond the rim meant becoming a being of energy like Shadows and Vorlons, as happened to humans eventually. Some were able to transform temporarily, others were so permanently. I wonder if there was ever a phase when Vorlons were mortal beings of flesh and blood, and if so, what that original form looked like (as they appeared different to every sentient being, except Centauri who saw nothing). For beings of energy rather than matter, the intergalactic void wouldn't pose a problem.

It's interesting to speculate that if Sinclair, as originally intended, had led B5 until the end (and presumably traveled into the past in Sleeping in Light rather than beyond the rim), and had had the relationship with Delenn, he would've had a child with his own descendant before going back to the past to sire the ancestors of that descendant! *my head hurts*

Galahad September 21st 07 13:06

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maneth (Post 308999)
I wonder if there was ever a phase when Vorlons were mortal beings of flesh and blood, and if so, what that original form looked like (as they appeared different to every sentient being, except Centauri who saw nothing). For beings of energy rather than matter, the intergalactic void wouldn't pose a problem.

Kosh appeared different to every sentient being, because that is how he wished to be perceived. Projecting himself in that manner took a lot out of him.

The vorlons are squidy jellyfishy things as seen in Falling Towards Apotheosis.

I suspect they were always like that as we have Lorien's musings to Ivanova to go on:

Ivanova: Ok, let's assume that in all of the universe, you were the first
living being to achieve sentience billions of years ago. Now at
that point you'd be doing pretty good to invent fire or the wheel.
You couldn't come up with science and technology find a sirum for
immortality all in one lifetime.

Quote:

Lorien: It wasn't necessary. We were born, naturally immortal.

Ivanova: That's impossible. Everything dies.

Lorien: Yes. Now. At first we were kept in balance by birth rate. Few of
us were ever born, less than a handful each year. Then I think the
universe decided, that to appreciate life for there to be change and
growth, life had to be short. So the generations that followed us
grew old, infirmed, then died
. But those of us who were first went
on.
We discovered the Vorlons and the shadows when they were infant
races and nurished them -- helped them and all the other races you
call the first ones. In time, most of them died. Or passed beyond
the rim to whatever lies in the darkness between the galaxies.
On that basis it would be interesting to know if lorien is talking of generations that followed as later generations of the first One races, or the younger races.

It seems to make sense that he is talking of different races growing infrirm, but I',m not confident enmough in that assertion to rule out the other idea... although we know that it has been a veeeeeeeeeeeeeery long time prior to Kosh's death that a vorlon has died previously.

GaribaldisHair September 22nd 07 21:35

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maneth (Post 308999)
I always thought that passing beyond the rim meant becoming a being of energy like Shadows and Vorlons, as happened to humans eventually.

I always figured that the expression "Passing beyond the rim" as used in the show (such as in Into The Fire) meant literally what it said ... that the First Ones (in this case) were literally leaving the galaxy (or 'Getting the Hell out' if you prefer), physically passing beyond the borders of known space into what lay beyond.

Spoiler for The Lost Tales:
TLT heavily implies the same thing with Lochley's comments about G'Kar and Franklin exploring beyond the rim. Granted that was clearly meant to be a tribute to the passing of the actors, but it fits with the notion that going beyond the rim is something physical and literal rather than a transition from Corporeal to non-Corporeal being.

Jade Jaguar September 23rd 07 01:38

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
To me, going, or passing, beyond the rim has both a literal and a figurative meaning. The literal meaning is to leave the galaxy, and enter the void between galaxies. You might also call that leaving known space, which is figuratively what you do when you die.

hypatia September 23rd 07 06:33

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
That is definitely a possibility. But I've always wondered if all of these ancient races would all, collectively and unanimously, agree to die just to get out of the way of the younger races. Some of the First Ones were already doing that quite nicely, it seems. Some were very hard to find, I recall.

But it certainly seems to be an alternative possibility, put in most definitely on purpose, to keep it vague. Just like the real end of life is.

KoshFan September 24th 07 02:54

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Beyond the Fields We Know
East of the Sun, West of the Moon
Back of the North Wind

The idea's a very old one.

hypatia September 24th 07 06:01

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Be that as it may, KF, have you ever known any species that decided to kill itself off rather than "get in the way of the younger races"?

I just wonder how Lorien got such agreement. Weren't there any shadows or vorlons who said "screw this...". :)

maneth September 24th 07 06:10

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
I don't think they died out, at least not voluntarily. They went literally out of the galaxy, but to survive there for any length of time without possibility of resupply, they had to become incorporeal.

The Vorlons and Shadows are interesting creatures. Certainly the Vorlons have some corporeal element, or else it would be impossible to poison them. However, I suspect that they are able to convert into completely incorporeal entities when needed. Obviously they must be the most superior telepaths of the Galaxy, it was they who bred the ability into the younger races after all, or else they wouldn't be able to change their appearance according to whim. However, that makes me wonder, why can the Narns, who haven't had telepaths in centuries, see the Vorlons, while the Centauri who have telepaths working for the court can't? Is that because they've always been closer to the Shadows than the Vorlons, or what?

Jade Jaguar September 24th 07 06:25

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
No, I don't think the First Ones' "going beyond the rim" involved dying, at least not with any certainty. It was clearly vacating our galaxy, and leaving it to the younger races, but it was also a voyage of exploration for them, as they were going into uncharted territory. I see many different possibilities for their fate, or perhaps fates. They may well have become incorporeal, and stayed that way, another step in their evolution. They might have gone dormant, leaving one or two conscious, to guide their ships to another galaxy. They may have met other First Ones, from other galaxies, in the darkness between galaxies, or perhaps some other kind of intelligent beings that lived between galaxies. Or, perhaps they read Zen, and became "one with the universe." :D I am sure there are other possibilities as well... perhaps slipping into another dimension?

Galahad September 24th 07 08:52

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maneth (Post 309163)
However, that makes me wonder, why can the Narns, who haven't had telepaths in centuries, see the Vorlons, while the Centauri who have telepaths working for the court can't? Is that because they've always been closer to the Shadows than the Vorlons, or what?

It's because Kosh didn't want Londo to see him, presumable due to his connection with the Shadows.

Kosh wasn't showing his genuine form during that incident, he was projecting himself in a manner that everybody saw him in a certain way... which is why he appeared different to all... but followed the same general description (angelic).

There is nothing to indicate all Centauri fail to perceive Kosh, because IIRC the only Centauri asked is Londo.

A lot of people may feel that Kosh was being unfair to Londo but actually I think he was doing it for a good reason. By excluding Londo from the exxperience that everybody else was sharing in, he may have hope to inspire londo to question himself, question the path he was on.

Although the Centauri Prime trilogy books do have a slightly different take on what Londo saw.

GaribaldisHair September 24th 07 09:55

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Or maybe it was a neat piece of foreshadowing, emphasising that the Centauri have no connection to the Vorlons (the other races did, after all, see figures from their own religious traditions) and are therefore more likely to side with the Shadows when the time comes.

Galahad September 24th 07 10:47

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaribaldisHair (Post 309172)
Or maybe it was a neat piece of foreshadowing, emphasising that the Centauri have no connection to the Vorlons (the other races did, after all, see figures from their own religious traditions) and are therefore more likely to side with the Shadows when the time comes.

But as I said, we can't be sure of that because the only Centauri avaliable for comment was Londo.

Although in the telepath trilogy, wwe are led to believe that the vorlons

SPOILER (Dunno how to do the funky box)



























Focussed their attentions on nurturing the Xon - the species the Centauri wiped out.

maneth September 25th 07 06:31

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
That's a very good point and not one I was aware of, although I'd say it hardly counts as a spoiler.

puzzle September 25th 07 18:19

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Edit: oops, I notice that Galahad already made a very similar guess. Well, I'll keep mine around too, no point in deleting it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maneth (Post 309163)
However, that makes me wonder, why can the Narns, who haven't had telepaths in centuries, see the Vorlons, while the Centauri who have telepaths working for the court can't? Is that because they've always been closer to the Shadows than the Vorlons, or what?

Kosh may have been trying to convey a message to Londo personally.

Or less likely, someone else may have been been trailing Londo, and decided to protect his mind from being touched by the illusion. For a reason, or out of whim.

Since it's never mentioned what any other Centauri saw, nor what cameras saw (did the illusion have an optical facet, or was it purely mental), we can speculate...

Estelyn September 13th 10 20:28

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Am I the only one who think of Pullman's "Dark Materials" when I hear "Dust"? Not the same substance, but in both cases the word for a lowly, worthless element is used for something significant.

There's so much to this episode that it's hard to know where to start without repeating everything that has already been said. Both the PsiCorp plot and the one involving G'Kar/Londo are great. I love Lennier's quote about Londo: "A darkness carried in the heart cannot be cured by moving the body." There's real wisdom in that!

Somewhere in there is a statement that the PsiCorps "stands between you and the abyss." Dubious...

This is definitely the turning point for G'Kar - the last time, unless I'm forgetting something, that he turns to violence to solve a problem. At the very least it's no longer his primary mode of operation. It took me a little bit to realize where the vision of his father came from - the angelic being and the statement "I have always been here" gave it away. It is interesting to have this personal contact between the Vorlon and G'Kar, since I don't recall any interaction between them previously.

Bester, as always, is a fascinating, multi-facetted character. You never know quite how to take him...

JoeD80 September 13th 10 23:07

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
^
The contact with Kosh is definitely the major reason G'Kar changes his attitude. Kosh wasn't able to contact him previously; like with Sheridan G'Kar's mind "wasn't quiet enough to hear him." The Dust opened his mind up to the Kosh contact.

Lennier's Tears February 5th 15 21:45

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
I like this episode a lot. Important G'Kar stuff, seemingly out of nowhere! But there's a lot of other good stuff in there, too.

The scene at the beginning, with the Night Watch security guy harassing that shopkeeper. I love it. I love how Sheridan is not putting up with that Night Watch crap at all.

I like the idea of Dust existing, and being used as a recreational drug. Just the sort of thing you'd expect to exist in the B5 universe. And of course, at the end we find out it was another Psi Corps experiment.

Vir's arrival :D I love Vir. I've mentioned elsewhere I've come to realize he's the true hero of the show, but even aside from that, he's just so likable. And that Minbari shirt he's wearing is very funny, as is Londo's disapproval. The whole Londo and Vir bit is excellent. They're a bit Bert and Ernie-ish, but it's fun. I do feel bad for Vir when Londo trashes his report on Minbar.

Then the bits with Londo and G'Kar are powerful stuff. Kind of beside the point here, but, I notice that in the flashback to where Londo talks about his assignment as ambassador, he's wearing what could be his purple coat from earlier on in the show, but it's missing the decoration. Do the Centauri coat decorations signify social standing or something?

Ivanova wanting to kill Bester. It's good stuff ... I can totally understand her desperation, there. Fortunately Sheridan saved the day, eh? It does make me wonder exactly how the voice commands for the defense grid work. Does the computer recognize Sheridan's voice as outranking Ivanova's order? Does the defense grid have a slight delay?

Something else about this episode that I only started noticing after many viewings is obvious in this scene, too. The "conversation just to explain the plot to the audience" thing. Here's Ivanova thinking out loud so that we can all follow along. At the end of the episode, Bester does a similar thing, when he starts talking about the Dust thing to the other Psi Cop, who presumably already knows the things he is telling her.

I like the Minbari telepath idea, and how dismayed Bester looks when he finds them there. "Nothing like a level playing field to ruin a Psi Cop's day", indeed. I'm not sure I would have trusted him, even on the sleepers. Dude is creepy!

That bit with Londo and the Drazi ambassador is interesting, too. Londo threatening him with invasion and all. Then, I like the conversation Vir has with Delenn and Lennier after Londo leaves the room, where they talk about Londo and Lennier says "A darkness carried in the heart cannot be cured by moving the body from one place to another", and Vir sort of defending Londo: "someday he will surprise you".

A side note about the Drazi. I suppose the 1.2 human years of the big purple/green fight have passed now, but we've seen some Drazi newly arrived at the station who didn't wear sashes (the pilgrims in "Convictions", for one). Perhaps the devoutly religious don't participate? Or maybe if you're traveling you get a break from participating? Ahh, I have so many questions about that odd custom :p

I like the part where Bester tells Garibaldi they both do the same thing, using their uniform/badge to intimidate, and that he too is only trying to protect Earth. It's a recurring theme that I like.

I guess that's quite enough for one post :p

RW7427 February 11th 15 21:02

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

I like the Minbari telepath idea, and how dismayed Bester looks when he finds them there. "Nothing like a level playing field to ruin a Psi Cop's day",
Love that scene! :D


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