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vacantlook October 24th 05 22:45

EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Dust To Dust
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Dust To Dust

RW7427 October 25th 05 04:00

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Awesome ep! ;)

KoshFan October 25th 05 15:05

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
I play the G'Kar/Kosh conversation over and over again. I love this episode.

And of course we've got Bester's immortal "pinata" line.

Boxie October 25th 05 17:52

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
:D I really like this episode! I love the scene in C&C where Ivanova has decided to destroy Bester's ship. I thought it was very well played. She's tortured by it, understands the personal price she’ll pay, but she's going to do it.

And G'kar, :eek: under the effects of the dust...My gosh, Andreas is so good! It never ceases to amaze me the level of emotion that bleeds through all of the make up. Some actors can't break through it; the physical barrier is just too much, but not for Andreas. :cool: He is truly a master of his craft.

Springer October 25th 05 20:12

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
I watched this episode for the first time in ages just recently, and I was surprised at just how good it is. G'Kar taking a dose of dust is flabbergasting, and his epiphany is so crucial to his character. This is possibly the most important G'Kar episode in the series, and Andreas' performance is incredible- he runs the gamut of emotions and you can believe all of it.

Ivanova's attempt to blow up Bester is believable, and its an example of the high stakes the characters now find themselves in. Walter Koenig is, of course, wonderful as always.

hypatia October 25th 05 22:28

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
I forgot about the pinata line. That was quite well written (and delivered). :)

And yes, Andreas Katsulas blew my mind with his performance in this episode.

Solid "A" for me. It's one of my favorites.

Kaleb October 25th 05 23:38

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
An episode I love, and part of the reason Im looking to having season 3 and four on dvd at christmas break.

RW7427 October 26th 05 04:39

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
I guess this indirectly answers Sinclair's question of Kosh once in season 1. Kosh says to him, "They are a dying people. We should let them pass." Sinclair asks, "Who, the Narn or the Centauri?" Kosh simply answers, "Yes".

Well, what I'm getting at is this... Kosh's answer to Sinclair can't be the Narns because he appears to G'Kar in his dream and indirectly encourages him to do what he needs to save his people. If he mean the Narns as his answer, he wouldn't have done that, so his answer had to be the Centauri. ;)

Jade Jaguar October 26th 05 04:50

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
I would say that his answer means that either the Narns, or the Centauri, will die off, as a people, but not both. Perhaps Kosh just liked the Narns better, and so appeared to G'Kar, to tilt things in the Narns' favor. I know I like the Narns better.

Boxie October 26th 05 05:09

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

Kosh says to him, "They are a dying people. We should let them pass." Sinclair asks, "Who, the Narn or the Centauri?" Kosh simply answers, "Yes".

I know it was another season, but reading that I think Sheridan nailed it when he said:

"Well, as answers go, short to the point, utterly useless and totally consistent, what I've come to expect from a Vorlon." :D

:D I'll bet Sinclair wished he had said that, I'm sure he felt exactly the same way!

RW7427 October 26th 05 05:18

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Indeed! :lol:

Boxie October 26th 05 05:20

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
:lol: ;)

KoshFan October 26th 05 13:12

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
I always took it to mean that both the Narn and the Centauri were screwed, but the either/or thing might be a better assessment. And JMS has said that neither race ever reaches the level the Humans and Minbari have achieved in "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars." As G'Kar says not long after, he's going to do what his revelation taught him to do to save everyone, but the Humans are the key.

RW7427 October 26th 05 15:49

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Good point, KoshFan! Even thought the Centauri were supposedly the "Lion of the Galaxy" as Londo called them, in the long run they didn't reach the same level the Humans and the Minbari did.

GKarsEye October 26th 05 15:55

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

I always took it to mean that both the Narn and the Centauri were screwed

This is certainly my understanding. G'Kar basically said that he saw the Narn as dying off eventually but at least they could become an example and catalyst for better future for life in general.

The Narn/Centauri conflict serves as a dramatic counterpoint to the Human/Minbari conflict, in that they are both warring planets that, following the natural inclination of people, could continue a never-ending cycle of violence and hatred. The former is the realisation of that horror why the latter is saved by enlightened people, with Babylon 5 as the instrument.

Oatley1 October 27th 05 05:08

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
This was the first B5 episode I ever saw, and it so blew me away that I was converted at first sight. And the scene that clinched it for me? The one where G'Kar has his Dust enhanced vision and is informed by Kosh that some must be sacrificed so that all may be saved. It still sends a shiver up my spine.

KoshFan October 27th 05 13:45

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
I just love Kosh...

This is actually the second-to-last thing he did for our heroes before he died. He wasn't terribly active the last few weeks of his life, with the notable exception of sending out the fleet.

Shaal Mayan October 27th 05 13:57

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Andreas at his best it gets an A of course.

hypatia October 27th 05 14:21

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

This was the first B5 episode I ever saw, and it so blew me away that I was converted at first sight. And the scene that clinched it for me? The one where G'Kar has his Dust enhanced vision and is informed by Kosh that some must be sacrificed so that all may be saved. It still sends a shiver up my spine.

Wow. That surprises me, somehow. I was a late to start watching B5 on a regular basis, but somehow figured you'd have to know something of the G'kar character to really get that scene.

Obviously the background given in that episode was enough to reel you in. :)

I shouldn't be surprised. If there is one thing JMS did for actors it is to show a lot of people that "this guy/gal has a much bigger range than any of you realized".

Walter Koenig: I think even JMS mentioned he knew how much more than "Chekov" he could be.

Andreas Katsulas: although I think now "The Fugitive" is his most mentioned role, hhis best role was that of G'kar. :)

Brad Dourif (sp?): I'd seen him many times in the movie Dune, and I was stunned to see just how much he could draw me into his acting when he was playing a sympathetic part.

I'm sure there are many others, these are the three that stand out in my mind. :)

RW7427 October 27th 05 14:38

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

I just love Kosh...

This is actually the second-to-last thing he did for our heroes before he died. He wasn't terribly active the last few weeks of his life, with the notable exception of sending out the fleet.

And that's why your nick is KoshFan! ;) :lol:

KoshFan October 28th 05 01:14

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
*takes a bow*

Exactly, good sir.

GKarsEye October 28th 05 14:10

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Episodes like this one make me laugh whenever anyone tries to compare any other serial sci-fi TV show to B5.

RW7427 October 28th 05 14:53

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
There IS none. ;)

Boxie October 28th 05 17:33

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

Episodes like this one make me laugh whenever anyone tries to compare any other serial sci-fi TV show to B5.

Isn't that the truth! :cool:

KoshFan October 29th 05 13:03

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
[Firefly loyalist] If we'd just had a little more time...! [/Firefly loyalist]

[sound of Firefly loyalist being smacked]





Yeah, it's fair. B5 did it biggest and best.

Lousy_Dodgers August 17th 06 00:35

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

Episodes like this one make me laugh whenever anyone tries to compare any other serial sci-fi TV show to B5.

And episodic sci-fi shows for that matter.

My one quibble with the show was that G'Kar's sentencing at the end seemed a bit light for the crime involved. Granted, I did not expect him to get spaced or anything but the 60-day sentence (if I remember it correctly) just seems disproportionate for one who used an illegal substance and then assaulted two people. Perhaps there is an explanation in the sense that space is a premium on B5 and you cannot simply lock people up for years on end since the cost would be astronomical (sorry for that pun).

And yes, the pinata line is one of the classics.

Joseph DeMartino August 17th 06 01:53

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
JMS has said that neither the Narn nor the Centauri ever rose to the status of First Ones, but that they didn't become extinct, at least within the compass of the period he outlined (which extends a million years into the future.) Kosh's line refers to both ot them. They are declining, or at least stagnating.

Of course, once the Drakh are gone the endless Narn-Centauri conflict does come to an end. The Centauri become a very different people after they suffer decades of occupation, have most of their old political class wiped out and come under the enlightened rule of Vir Coto. They and the Narn may never completely overcome their mutual hatred, and therefore never advance as the Humans and Minbari do, but they don't have to act on it. That's another lesson to be taken from B5 and from history, especially given the current world situation. Catholics and Protestants are no closer on matters of doctrine now than they were when Luther published his 95 theses, but they don't go around burning one another at the stake anymore. :)

Regards,

Joe

Lousy_Dodgers August 17th 06 15:40

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

JMS has said that neither the Narn nor the Centauri ever rose to the status of First Ones, but that they didn't become extinct, at least within the compass of the period he outlined (which extends a million years into the future.) Kosh's line refers to both ot them. They are declining, or at least stagnating.

I have read that same commentary from JMS and it leads me to ask one more question: Do the Narn and Centauri go beyond the rim anyway? They may not reach the status of First Ones in terms of evolution but if their civilizations do not vanish, they would become rather powerful technologically. If they remained, their presence might hinder the opportunities for younger races to develop...or perhaps they reach an agreement with the humans and Minbari to pull back to their home systems and withdraw from interstellar affairs.

hypatia August 17th 06 15:46

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
That agreement would be impossible to enforce once the Humans and Minbari went beyond the rim, though.

Lousy_Dodgers August 17th 06 15:53

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

That agreement would be impossible to enforce once the Humans and Minbari went beyond the rim, though.

True, but at least as of one million years from now, the humans were still around and on their way to the Vorlon homeworld. Maybe when the humans finally leave, they will throw the Narn and the Centauri in the backseat--metaphorically anyway--and take them along.

hypatia August 17th 06 16:05

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Would you want those two in your back seat? :lol:

:eek:

"Are we there yet?" would start to look rather tame. :o

Joseph DeMartino August 17th 06 16:36

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
I don't think you can go Beyond the Rim if you aren't a First One. There is nothing in the interstellar void - no place to make pit stops for fuel and food. So unless both your technology and biology are way advanced, you're not going very far once you're out in the great, gaping blackness were no stars or planets abide. All you're going to have to live on is what you bring with you. And nobody makes a lunch box that big.

Eventually, after many millions of years, the Humans and Minbari, like the Vorlons and the Shadows, will probably go beyond the Rim. By that time the Narn and Centauri may be extinct. Don't forget, JMS's detailed notes end at the point where the Humans have become "First Ones", but the departure from Earth and the move to (presumably) the former Vorlon Homeworld singals the beginning of their tenure as guardians and teachers of the younger races, not its end.

Also, as noted, the Narn and Centauri have been effectively weaned from their cycle of war by the time of "SiL". G'Kar's teachings have started to take hold on a Narn that is returning to its agricultural origins with the aid of Minbari technology (see the short story "True Seeker" for an early glimpse of the process during G'Kar's lifetime) The Centauri have been humbled by having the tables turned on them and being the occupied for a change, and the corrupt political leadership that put them in that position has been purged. Vir can show that Londo's anti-IA propganda was the work of the Drakh and work with the organization and, especially, the Narn. He can also do what Emperor Turhan was unable to do - stand before a Narn as emperor and say, "I'm sorry."

So I doubt they'd either have to withdraw within their own borders or go on squabbling. And by the time the Humans and Minbari leave, the Even Younger races (which will include some more with First One potential) should be able to handle the Centauri and the Narn, who would therefore be unlikely to get out of line. :)

Regards,

Joe

KoshFan August 17th 06 21:56

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
I imagined both the Narn and the Centauri fading as races. They would essentially become anachronisms, and likely dwindle in numbers to the point where they are no longer counted even among the minor races.

I was tempted to write a short story about the Human/Minbari guardianship of the new younger races. I was going to have the Minbari say to an overzealous follower, "Obedience is not required. Only understanding."

vacantlook August 17th 06 22:45

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Nice twist on Lennier's words, KF, oh so appropriate for a FirstOne-level Minbari.

Elipsis September 18th 07 19:59

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
There were so many good things in this episode, and it served to blur the line between "good guys" and "bad guys" here. I loved that Ivanova was about to straight up murder Bester, that Bester makes the fair point that what he does is no different than what Garibaldi does with intimidating people. And the scene with Londo and G'kar... wow!




I really liked this episode because it really questions morality and shoves a bunch of our characters into the big grey area.

crazyhorse September 19th 07 00:24

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
I always wondered why G'Kar got away with mind rape so easily both in the courts and with the viewers.

Did Londo have it coming to him and does this make it more acceptable?

As for what races survive,we have only a guess from a being from a decadent race ;)

hypatia September 19th 07 04:32

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyhorse (Post 308869)
I always wondered why G'Kar got away with mind rape so easily both in the courts and with the viewers.

I commented on this some time ago. Some people here had some good arguments for it, though. The one I remember now is that G'kar now knew pretty much everything about Londo. Londo knew G'kar knows pretty much what he's been up to. So the didn't "push" for any stronger conviction.

There were other reasons, I can't remember though why his opinion would make much of a difference in a criminal trial. The courts don't go lighter on someone, significantly lighter, if the victim doesn't push for a strict sentence? So I don't know quite how that's supposed to work out, but it's a valid question.

Quote:


Did Londo have it coming to him and does this make it more acceptable?
That's one of the many questions this episode brings out. Especially since he would have, happily, killed Londo. Kosh is the reason he stopped, isn't it?

Quote:

As for what races survive,we have only a guess from a being from a decadent race ;)
Decadent? I think that's the first time I've ever heard the Vorlons called quite that. :) It's an interesting perspective.

Now I'll picture all these encounter-suited beings sitting on the beach and having orgies and such. :lol:

Eww, Vorlon mating... don't know if I quite want to go there... :shocked:

Galahad September 19th 07 11:09

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino (Post 267339)
And by the time the Humans and Minbari leave, the Even Younger races (which will include some more with First One potential) should be able to handle the Centauri and the Narn, who would therefore be unlikely to get out of line. :)

This raises a question that has often been on my mind. It's interesting that the two races that reach "First One status", have genes from one another's species introduced into them.

Does this imply that there may have been a particular DNA sequence that appears fragmented in humans and minbari, but which eventually through the introduction of foreign DNA both ways (Valen and Delenn), evetually fuses into a single sequence over time, that triggers the evolution of both species into higher beings.

hypatia September 19th 07 14:37

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
I don't know, but as a science, why wouldn't the same apply to animals? Is a mule more "evolved" than a horse or a donkey? It can't even reproduce, if I remember correctly.

Although, it's possible the Triluminary transformation also made something else happen, that was passed on. Perhaps the transformation made them (Valen and Delen) more genetically compatible than a horse and mule. Did the homosapien race evolve by cross-mating with Neanderthals? Would that make them more evolutionarily advanced? I guess so.

So, hmm, the question I suppose is: can David have children? :lol: Well, Valen certainly did, and his offspring had more offspring.

So, interesting thought. I've never heard that theory/perspective on the episode before. :cool:

Jade Jaguar September 21st 07 05:59

Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 308896)
I don't know, but as a science, why wouldn't the same apply to animals? Is a mule more "evolved" than a horse or a donkey? It can't even reproduce, if I remember correctly.

Not all hybrids are sterile. There is a phenomenon called hybrid vigor, or heterosis, which is that some hybrids, or crossbreeds, are somewhat superior to either parent. Bet you can find more details on Wikipedia, if you are interested.


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