B5TV.COM

B5TV.COM (http://www.b5tv.com/index.php)
-   B5.world (http://www.b5tv.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
-   -   EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8509)

hypatia January 15th 06 14:05

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Ah, thanks Jan. :) So yea, that does make it pretty clear it is a device, not a telpath, doing the actual death of personality.

And I certainly can see a person like brother Edward fearing he might turn back into the person he was before, once his old memories began to return.

I know this is a love-or-hate episode. And it certainly raises some interesting questions for those who believe in spiritual salvation of the Christian kind:

How do you repent for crimes you don't even remember? I thought that comprehending what was wrong in what you did was a necessary step towards true absolution, but I might be mistaken in that.

If you do "kill" one personality, and "create" another, where does the soul fit in all of this? Does the soul die when the personailty does? Is a new one created?

And again, that ending that I love so much: as much as we admire forgiveness, when it gets personal, can we find it within ourselves to be forgiving?

Jacqui January 15th 06 16:26

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Thanks, Jan. I couldn't remember how it was done, but the idea of it being an entirely Psi Corps thing was entirely too disturbing.

Jacqui

Jan January 15th 06 17:25

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Happy to help, Hypatia and Jacqui. I think were it got confusing was because the Centauri telepath was able to break the wipe and restimulate the old memories. Plus, we know that the Minbari telepaths can meddle with memories, as we saw happen to Sinclair. A complete mindwipe, though, I think would be way beyond the capabilities of a 'regular' telepath like Talia.

Jan

Joseph DeMartino January 15th 06 22:12

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

If you do "kill" one personality, and "create" another, where does the soul fit in all of this? Does the soul die when the personailty does? Is a new one created?

Which is, of course, Brother Edward's question. His answer is that the soul remains the same - it must if it is possible, under any circumstances, for the original memories to return.

As for Brother Edward's "suicide" - I don't think that's what happened here, anymore that Christ "committed suicide". Either would have accepted it if their killers had changed their minds, if what they understood as God's plan could have been accomplished in some other way. (Jesus explicitly asks God to spare him the ordeal if that is possible. I rather doubt that Brother Edward would have cried, "No, you have to kill me!" if the mob had suddenly seen the light and decided against murdering him.)

Nor is it necessarily (or even probably) the case that Brother Edward considered what he did in his prior life to be "unforgiveable" in the theological sense. God's forgiveness requires only a real acceptance of responsibilty for sin and a genuinely contrite heart. The Black Rose Killer, had he simply been executed, would never have been able to provide either. Because he has been reborn as Brother Edward, he has that chance to save his immortal soul. I think Brother Edward saw his non-resistance to the mob, his leaving himself open to whatever that confontation might bring, leaving that in the hands of God, as a necessary act of atonement and apology - a perfect act of contrition as it were. But he didn't know for sure what would happen when they found him. He had to leave open the possiblity of a change of heart open for them, too. I think th whole event is far more nuanced than some people give it credit for. (Just as "Believers" has more colors than those whose own beliefs tell them the parents are simply wrong allow for.) But in the end it comes down to a commonplace that all professing Christians say almost every day, many of them without reflecting on the words, "Thy will be done."

Regards,

Joe

Jade Jaguar January 16th 06 01:09

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
I called his death an effective suicide, because I do note that it isn't excactly what we call suicide. But, I don't doubt for a minute that Brother Edwards expected to be killed, if he stayed, and didn't seek protection. He probably did hope it wouldn't happen, and did see facing death this way as an act of contrition. But still, he chose to remain in a situation he believed was near-certain death, when he could have most likely avoided it, and lived. So, I still think there is an element of suicide about it, but as I pointed out in my first post, I think there is a strong element of self sacrifice, to prevent himself from possibly harming others in the future. It IS a very nuanced, complex and subtle situation. A fine ep, which raises many questions!

Addendum: I find some, very slight, resembelance of this situation to what is called "suicide by cop," only in the sense that both share knowingly acting in a way that will bring about one's death at the hands of others. But, some "sbc" people may also feel they need to sacrifice themselves for others... Of course, we know something of Brother Edwards character, and motives, but nothing certain in the "sbc" cases we see in the media.

Elipsis September 9th 07 22:10

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
As someone not very big on forgiveness, I just didn't get into this one.

The best part was Theo lecturing Sheridan about forgiveness at the end... but it's hard for me to get emotionally involved with a character that has just been introduced this very episode.

Galahad September 10th 07 16:09

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
I don't agree with the argument that his former personality was coming back, just because his memories had returned.

Edward's killers wanted him to remember so he would know why they were killing him... in many ways that made it easier for them to do the job with what they would falsely call "a clean conscience".

I like to think that Edward was holding out against his former personality.

Aside from my thoughts, why would the killers risk reintegrating Edwards former personality - a psychotic killer? It would potentially make the desired outcome harder to achieve... possibly even backfire... resluting in harm coming to themselves.

The question is not just a matter of spirituality. It carries legal ramifications as well.

Do we consider the punishment or rehabilitation of criminals as paramount. If we say the latter, than can we truly say a person has been rehabilitated if they remain unaware of their actions.

If the problem that led to the criminal behaviour is a deeply psychologiucal one... surely it is better to repair the psychological flaws... without damaging the memory. Of course this then raises a harsh question for the criminal post treatment... how do you live with what you have done, once you are able to rationalise how terrible it truly was?

Again as Edward said.... how can there be forgiveness if there is no repentance?

RW7427 September 11th 07 05:01

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

I like to think that Edward was holding out against his former personality.
I do too. He seemed appalled about what his former personality had done, like it was abhorrant (don't know if I spelled that word right :o ) and like he couldn't believe or accept that he had done it.

Mutai Sho-Rin September 12th 07 17:26

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Pretty late to the discussion but this is one of my favorite episodes as well. Everything said above about the nature of repentance and forgiveness, as well as Dourif's performance, reflects my love for the episode. The story itself was one of JMS' best and everyone involved seemed to raise their own personal bar a notch. I'll have to watch it again tonight.

maneth September 13th 07 11:45

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
I don't buy the whole Christian dogma bit at all, so the episode was, to me, rather pointless. I consider any suffering out of religious conviction to be well-deserved and completely self-inflicted, unless it's a case of brainwashed kids who haven't been exposed to the world and its variety early enough.

All that said, however, I thought Dourif's performance was utterly brilliant and the subtleties of the story some of the most wonderful writing in all of B5.

hypatia September 13th 07 14:13

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maneth (Post 308462)
I don't buy the whole Christian dogma bit at all, so the episode was, to me, rather pointless. I consider any suffering out of religious conviction to be well-deserved and completely self-inflicted, unless it's a case of brainwashed kids who haven't been exposed to the world and its variety early enough.

You'd prefer a character who "suffers out of political conviction" then? Is that mental pain more noble to you?

A large part of brother Edwards panic was just dealing with the fact that he was a sick, cold-blooded killer. It wouldn't take religious conviction to at least partially unhinge anyone's mind. But Edwards? Edwards mind had been specifically wiped and replaced with a personality that was "programmed" to do good and help people. Your programming would virtually guarantee you'd have a very bad reaction to any revelation of your true past.

If he hadn't stumbled upon a monestary early after his wipe, he might have had no particular religious convictions at all. But he'd still be basically a "nice guy" who has suddenly realized that he was, truly, a monster before. And just what happened to "him"? How much of "him" is really still "you"?

But your comment wil make old Mighty happy. He's always getting on my case for blaming religion for everything. :lol:

;)

Galahad September 13th 07 14:22

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maneth (Post 308462)
I don't buy the whole Christian dogma bit at all, so the episode was, to me, rather pointless. I consider any suffering out of religious conviction to be well-deserved and completely self-inflicted, unless it's a case of brainwashed kids who haven't been exposed to the world and its variety early enough.

Naturally I'm biased against that viewpoint... but I don't think the statement justifiably makes sense.

You are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Martin Luther King
Gandhi
Maximillian Kolbe

All these people suffered fates that were as a direct result of their religious conviction being a force for good.

Similarly I don't believe atheists deserved to be flagellated or beaten to a bloody pulp or killed on the basis of their lack of belief.

Conviction is not the problem - intolerance and aggressive over-assertion of a viewpoint are... and that's true whatever the religion or even non-religion.

KoshFan September 13th 07 15:24

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
And we, Galahad, insist on keeping the bath water around long after it's cold and dirty for fear of throwing out the baby.

Galahad September 13th 07 15:46

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 308480)
And we, Galahad, insist on keeping the bath water around long after it's cold and dirty for fear of throwing out the baby.

Hmmm... yeah but I'd probably argue the situation in the UK is different to the US.

For one thing the main problem with churches over here is weak inneffectual leadership... not aggressive posturing on the secular stage.

I don't deny it's catching on... but that's more to do with a lot of right wing christians jumping on the bandwagon of other religions activism.

hypatia September 13th 07 19:18

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Galahad (Post 308481)
For one thing the main problem with churches over here is weak inneffectual leadership... not aggressive posturing on the secular stage.

What kind of leadership do you mean? Leading people in their faith, or in how they vote?

I know many religious folk out there do honestly think secularists are "out to get them". And undoubtedly there are some individuals who are. But most of the time secularism is fighting the abuses of the religious majority (or whomever considers themselves the religious majority). So we have laws about losing your tax-free status as a church if you are using it to influence voters, for example. You could still do it, and still be a church, you just won't have that nice tax-free status anymore. So the choice is a fair one, I think.

Galahad September 13th 07 23:01

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 308500)
What kind of leadership do you mean? Leading people in their faith, or in how they vote?

I know many religious folk out there do honestly think secularists are "out to get them". And undoubtedly there are some individuals who are. But most of the time secularism is fighting the abuses of the religious majority (or whomever considers themselves the religious majority). So we have laws about losing your tax-free status as a church if you are using it to influence voters, for example. You could still do it, and still be a church, you just won't have that nice tax-free status anymore. So the choice is a fair one, I think.

Well I was moving on because I didn't feel KF's continuation of my expression - though relevant, was applicable in the same way in Britain. As far as I know, we don't have substantial political endorsement by the church of any kind. Yes we have leaders that need throwing out... but not for the same reasons.

I've never known a church in the UK... not in my XP anyway, that advocates voting for any party. You might get a leader who talks about certain issues, but I've never heard of politicians or parties getting a seal of approval or endorsement. The most outspoken the CofE has got in terms of national politics (aside from Make Poverty History) is when it joined in a multifaith statement denouncing the handling of the Iraq conflict.

I genuinely think the relationship between our political and religious affairs is not as heavily intertwined as in America

I'd like to know if any other Brits feel my understanding of the facts is not accurate... and if they could cite examples that would be helpful.

KoshFan September 14th 07 00:41

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Eh, we all have personal bathwater sitting around stagnating, Galahad. Personally I've got at least a dozen tub's worth. I wasn't speaking of nations, I was speaking of Christians in general.

Jade Jaguar September 14th 07 07:15

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Christians = stagnant bathwater! That's pretty good... I'll have to remember that one! :lol:

Galahad September 14th 07 08:10

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 308521)
Eh, we all have personal bathwater sitting around stagnating, Galahad. Personally I've got at least a dozen tub's worth. I wasn't speaking of nations, I was speaking of Christians in general.

Eh?

No I got that vibe... I just thought that that you were alluding equally to maneth's statement as much as to mine and suggesting that the grotty bathwater was equivalent to dodgy preachers who abuse their position... but it seems you have as much problems with a sit around and do nothing church as I do.

As it happens I had a bathwater callout from the almighty myself last weekend. Nothing to do with anything a preacher said. I was just simply made aware of it in a very direct fashion. I blogged about it and compared the situation to a scene from Lord of the Rings. If you want to know a little mkore, PM me or something.. I won't go into too much detail... but I also don't wish to smother people with it here.

Right back to the episode itself.

I remember when it was first broadcast in the UK, one of the reviewers was critical of the ending. They weren't happy that it was the ringleader of Edward's killers who was taken in by the monks. They felt it was an unrealistic timescale and instead suggested that it should have been the mad bomber from Convictions.

I couldn't disagree more.

The reviewer seemed to think that the moral question about taking in a character who bears the face of your friends killer, was being posed to Sheridan alone... but it's not and that is the whole point. It is Theo and the monks who are equally challenged, in fact more so because they have lost a beloved colleague who they have known a lot longer than Sheridan had.

Part of me wonders if Theo actually had on some level recognised who Edward really was... and was keeping very coy about it.

At the end of this episode, Theo demonstrates that he has a wonderful capacity for agape love not just philos for his friends and order.

hypatia September 14th 07 14:41

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

Part of me wonders if Theo actually had on some level recognised who Edward really was... and was keeping very coy about it.
That's certainly a possibility. I tend to take him at his own word, though, as he has no reason to lie. He tells Sheridan that they "try not to ask too many questions".

So I got the impression that he was very worried about Brother Edwards past, and something in it "catching up with him" now. Perhaps he'd left some kind of abusive situation, or was somehow a reformed criminal. Perhaps he was running away from something.

I'd say he definitely knew something was wrong, but he didn't feel it would be right to pursue what it was. He saw part of his job as reforming and forgiving, and teaching people a "better way". All he ever questioned was Edward's convictions about religion and the idea of helping mankind.

Perhaps that's really why I like this episode so much. On top of the interesting moral dilemma it leaves you to ponder, perhaps I just like seeing a dedicated, sincerely faithful group of monks who NEVER felt a need to push their religion on anyone. But they did feel a need to help people when they good.

If that's what is meant by "church leadership" then I'm all for it. If "church leadership" really means "influencing law" then that's when you'll find the secularists quite logically object. The USA was founded to a great extent by people who were fleeing either devastation in the homeland, or religious persecution.

I have no doubt the role of religion in England may be seen very differently than it is in the USA, since the USA was specifically guarding against any kind of use of a "state-endorsed religion", while at least previously in history the U.K. specificially had quite a colorful history trying to force people to believe in a religion that a King invented to break the political hold of the Vatican on his ruling of his empire.

But I won't even get started on popes, here. :lol: :rolleyes:

But I certainly can see how religon is viewed differently by different people from different cultures. And I would tend to say that religious groups tend to be rather a lot of trouble when they get so highly organized and powerful that they are able to dictate to the leaders of countries what policies will and won't be allowed.

All I'll say about the American Catholics I know (who were not raised by "old-style catholic parents from Mexico) is that they never really overthrew the pope, as England did. Nah, they just ignore everything that he says. :lol:

A rule in my religion against birth control? Yea, I know that's technically true.... I just happen to ignore that rule because it's unrealistic.

I even recall the pope (former one, I believe) telling American Catholics that they must begin adhering to the doctrine of the church, or they should formally separate themselves into a new religion.

All I could think at the time was "you know, it's just so much easier to ignore you". ;)

And, quite frankly, I'm sure the Vatican likes the monies donated to them by American Catholics. So he didn't push that point at all; as I recall, he said so only once, on one tour of the world.

maneth September 17th 07 09:41

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Yeah, and if that isn't hypocrisy, I don't know what is. :p

I still think that by and large organized religion has been the direct or indirect cause of more evil than good in the world, although I don't question the good it may do in individual cases. I don't agree with Marx on much, but I do think religion is the opium of the masses. However, any conviction when taken to extremes is bad, including secular humanism.

Obviously we don't have mindwiping yet (and I personally hope we never will), so it's hard to say what the implications of such would really be for a particular individual.

Clark Kent September 17th 07 17:18

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
My favorite stand-alone episode of the five-year run.

maneth September 18th 07 13:24

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Yeah. Don't get me wrong: even though I don't have much time for religion myself, I love this episode. It's just so incredibly human and well acted and written. Not quite my favorite, but definitely on the shortlist.

Estelyn September 4th 10 21:02

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
It took me the rewatching of this episode on DVD to realize that Brother Edward was played by the same actor as Grima Wormtongue in LotR. This role is definitely subtler, and his acting makes the episode excellent.

I like the way the newscast is used to broach the topic of mindwiping as punishment for crime. A seemingly unrelated broadcast topic introduces the episode theme.

Many very deep and profound questions are raised, questions that few people stop to ponder in real daily life. Forgiveness is a difficult matter. One question raised is, is the death of personality an inhumane punishment? Another is, "Is there enough forgiveness?" And very important, "Where does revenge end and justice begin?"

Like Sheridan in the Sebastian episode, we see Edward as another torture victim who is fixed in the crucifixion position.

It is rather convenient to have a telepath on station who is not bound by Psi Corps rules, isn't it?!

hypatia September 4th 10 22:01

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Indeed. :)

It's also good to keep an eye on their video broadcasts. They usually have some significance.

Jade Jaguar September 5th 10 03:16

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Estelyn, the actor is Brad Douriff, a fine actor who got an Oscar for his role in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

hypatia September 5th 10 15:55

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
And he has terrible luck with roles, I'd say. He gets employed, but "One Flew Over..." and Bab5 were two of the better roles he's had.

Speaking of which, would anyone know anything else that he might be in that might be pretty good? (Dune and LotR I am familiar with.)

vacantlook September 5th 10 18:00

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Douriff played a psychopathic, murderous Betazoid in a couple of episodes of Star Trek Voyager.

Jade Jaguar September 6th 10 00:21

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 364812)
Speaking of which, would anyone know anything else that he might be in that might be pretty good? (Dune and LotR I am familiar with.)

Check out Wise Blood, directed by John Huston. Great film, he's the star. It came out on DVD about a year ago, or so.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080140/

hypatia September 6th 10 01:17

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Yea, I had heard he'd been on Voyager. I can't recall if I saw those episodes or not, so I probably didn't. I have noticed him ever since someone pointed out to me that "the B5 guy in that episode" was also that key character in "Cukoo's Nest".

The man can act.

Thanks for the movie suggestion, JJ. That looks like a rather different kind of film for John Huston, but I shall have to check it out sometime soon. I'm putting it on "the list". :)

JoeD80 September 8th 10 17:02

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn (Post 364793)
It is rather convenient to have a telepath on station who is not bound by Psi Corps rules, isn't it?!

Yep, but this also starts the road towards Lyta's feelings about always being used by others.

Alioth May 13th 12 12:31

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade Jaguar (Post 364820)
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 364812)
Speaking of which, would anyone know anything else that he might be in that might be pretty good? (Dune and LotR I am familiar with.)

Check out Wise Blood, directed by John Huston. Great film, he's the star. It came out on DVD about a year ago, or so.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080140/

Also saw him recently in Guyana Tragedy (a movie about Jim Jones and the mass suicide of the People's Temple congregants in Guyana)--he was a troubled junkie but very meek boy who ended up converting, cleaning up, and going to med school with Jones' support, and ended up being the guy who drugged some of Jones' followers into submission and later mixed up the Koolaid. He's certainly one who is typecast, isn't he. Seeing him in anything, you just know there's going to be some twisted or dark aspect of that character that will surface, even if it's not shown initially. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest is the only exception I know (yeah he's in an insane asylum, but in that case didn't really belong there, and was a tragic victim of that system and an abusive mother).

I vaguely remember Wise Blood, but when I last saw it on some movie channel I was in my early teens I think and found the story hard to grasp. There was definitely a weirdness about him though, that much I remember. I might have to catch it again now that I'm much older and could probably appreciate it more.

Sindatur May 13th 12 12:59

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 364812)
And he has terrible luck with roles, I'd say. He gets employed, but "One Flew Over..." and Bab5 were two of the better roles he's had.

Speaking of which, would anyone know anything else that he might be in that might be pretty good? (Dune and LotR I am familiar with.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 364816)
Douriff played a psychopathic, murderous Betazoid in a couple of episodes of Star Trek Voyager.

I just watched his first Voyager episode last night, he was extremely creepy in it

Galahad May 13th 12 17:25

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
I try to watch this episode every Maundy Thursday if I can and if I remember.

Lennier's Tears February 4th 15 20:18

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
I REALLY like this episode. It's probably the best standalone episode of the whole show (I may change my mind on that as I work my way through this re-watch).

If someone had told me about this episode before I first watched it, and described it as a story about forgiveness, involving monks and named "Passing Through Gethsemane", I would have thought "ehh". Religious themes aren't really my cup of tea, and I dislike stories that beat you over the head with some kind of morality message. But, this episode isn't like that at all!

The sin and forgiveness topics are excellently handled. There isn't a hint of preachiness in this (I guess there never is in Babylon 5). A complex issue is presented in a nuanced way.

It probably helps that the monk characters are so likable. I've mentioned elsewhere that I really like the Brother Theo character. He's kind of a stereotype or caricature, I guess .. But he seems so kindly and nice. Not at all preachy, just quietly devoted to his work. Brother Edward is fantastic. I love everything about this character. I really like Brad Dourif, so that helps [to add to the "Where else did we see him?" conversation: I believe he once scared the crap out of me in one of the later Myst games. Unlike the earlier games, this one had bits of moving video in between the still game scenes. Generally people walking into the scene. Startled me every time!]. He does such a good job with this part.

The issue of mindwiping is also a very interesting one. Personally, I don't think it's any more humane than the death penalty. It's pretty much exactly the same thing. The person is killed, you just get a replacement person instead of a dead body. The whole crime and punishment issue is so very complex ... I have lots of half-finished thoughts and somewhat undecided opinions on this, which I won't bore you with here. But, I think it's very interesting. I like that the issue is brought up in this episode, although I have some minor issues with how it was presented here. It's mostly just me and my opinions on what the 23rd century OUGHT to be like rather than a real problem with the episode.

Related, it appears that Brother Edward's new personality remains intact, even though he has his old memories back (or some of them, anyway). This is interesting. If one could reprogram a personality without taking away the memories, why is a whole mindwipe required? I briefly thought that maybe just changing the personality would be a more humane punishment, but it's actually probably more cruel to have a personality dedicated to serving with memories of horrible things they have done ... They'd probably end up like Edward, believing nothing can make up for what they did, and that they should die. Also, it's probably impossible to separate memories from a personality, although that is perhaps what we see here ... On the other hand, maybe it's Edward's new experiences that inform his old personality ...

I love the title of the episode. How appropriate. I suppose that is true for most Babylon 5 episodes. The names are well-chosen.

Minor nitpicks:

Even when this was written in the mid-nineties, the death penalty was long on its way out. Many nations had officially abolished it, and many others had stopped enacting it. It seems kind of odd to me that the writers felt this idea was likely to be around in the 23rd century. I don't have a problem with individual characters expressing a desire for a return to the olden days of capital punishment (ie Garibaldi). I am dubious that the world's governments would decide to bring it back as they join together in a global alliance.

But, even if they did have such forms of punishment in the 23rd century, I would think it would take a LOT for someone to be sentenced to such a punishment. At the end of this episode, we don't know exactly how much time has passed between the capture of Edward's killer and his new personality's departure for Earth, but it doesn't seem like it was a lot. I like the idea of an efficient justice system, but you'd think if someone's life is at stake, there would be appeals and it would get dragged out. In The Quality of Mercy, we see the same thing with Karl Mueller. There doesn't appear to be a jury or anything. It's a single judge deciding on someone's life. I'm a tad uncomfortable with that!

Of course my discomfort doesn't make anything unrealistic. Still, Earth seems to have pretty sensible policies, otherwise.

Did it seem like it took Edward's computer an impossibly long time to show him his search results? Just googling "Death Walks Among You" would have done the trick in seconds. Also, "According to station records, the Black Rose archives were accessed about five hours ago. Computer signature was the system in Brother Edward's quarters." There are station records that keep track of everyone's internet traffic? It kind of makes it sound like the those archives are a local resource, which is a bit weird, too.

Somewhat unrelated, if the technology exists to program human brains with personality traits and memories, isn't it odd that addiction is still an issue? Seems like someone could just go in and fix that part of the brain.

But, none of that takes away from my enjoyment of this episode. I think it's fantastic.

hypatia February 5th 15 01:21

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451027)
I REALLY like this episode. It's probably the best standalone episode of the whole show (I may change my mind on that as I work my way through this re-watch).

If someone had told me about this episode before I first watched it, and described it as a story about forgiveness, involving monks and named "Passing Through Gethsemane", I would have thought "ehh". Religious themes aren't really my cup of tea, and I dislike stories that beat you over the head with some kind of morality message. But, this episode isn't like that at all!

I know this is a love it or hate it kind of episode. But it is truly my favorite standalone episode. And Brad Dourif was a complete revelation in his part. The writing was stellar, and the issues were not over simplified, as you said. It really seemed a realistic portrayal.

Quote:

Even when this was written in the mid-nineties, the death penalty was long on its way out. Many nations had officially abolished it, and many others had stopped enacting it. It seems kind of odd to me that the writers felt this idea was likely to be around in the 23rd century. I don't have a problem with individual characters expressing a desire for a return to the olden days of capital punishment (ie Garibaldi). I am dubious that the world's governments would decide to bring it back as they join together in a global alliance.
I don't know if I see humanity reaching a point where things like the death penalty and torture will become literally unthinkable to us, in masse. It's a bit too soon (from even now to the years B5 was staged) for that many people to just give up on it as a great idea.

I"m not sure you'd find a massive agreement about the legalization of slavery. And it has been essentially rejected by the entire world (at least "official" enslavement).

I guess I'm not sure we're as good as that.

ON another note: it's been interesting lurking through your comments. It really was an amazingly written epic.

Lennier's Tears February 5th 15 18:23

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
That's a good point. I haven't checked any actual numbers but it seems that in quite a few of these nations that have long abolished the death penalty a not insignificant percentage of the population remains in favor. Perhaps it wouldn't take nearly as much as I think it would to convince governments to go back to the old ways ...

It occurs to me I neglected to comment on the other storylines of this episode :p

Lyta Alexander arrives back at Babylon 5 on Kosh's ship! That's a pretty big deal! Wouldn't we all love to know what she saw on the Vorlon homeworld ...

It's interesting that Dr. Franklin wasn't able to see Lyta's new gills. I guess the Vorlons are crafty that way.

Seeing Kosh leave Lyta's body is an exciting reveal. But, why does she look like crap right before that?

"A Minbari not born of Minbari". Now THERE is a setup for an exciting reveal :D In such a casual conversation, too. Nice.


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:52.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2008 B5TV.COM