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-   -   EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8509)

vacantlook October 4th 05 05:20

EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Passing Through Gethsemane
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Passing Through Gethsemane

Oatley1 October 4th 05 06:47

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
One of my favourite B5 shows ever. What other show deals in such explicit terms about the nature of guilt, forgiveness, revenge and mercy?

Sheer beauty.

Jade Jaguar October 4th 05 07:11

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
I'll second that, Oately! It's an A in my book. Plus, I love Brad Douriff. As an actor, of course.

GKarsEye October 4th 05 14:09

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Definitely an A for Doc Cochrane.. er, I mean Brad Dourif.

hypatia October 4th 05 14:26

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
This is my favorite B5 episode ever.

RW7427 October 4th 05 15:02

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
C! ;)

KoshFan October 4th 05 15:24

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
A solid A. The first time I saw it I was very confused and intrigued; strong performances (and it's the last time we see Brother Theo until "And the Rock Cried Out..."), pretty intense. Until I got spoiled by Joss Whedon this was some of the finest television I'd seen that didn't involve huge battles.

Shaal Mayan October 4th 05 16:15

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
B-Good.Nicely done

hypatia October 4th 05 22:24

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
I'm surprised. Usually this episode rates an "A" or an "F" (maybe a "D") from people I know. It's a love-it-or-hate-it kind of episode, I thought.

I had no idea Brad Douriff could act until this episode. Wow, he does a great job. I completely believe his character and I feel his confusion and agony when he begins to discover who he is.

Even thought I'm an ex-Catholic, I somehow can relate to his pain in feeling unable to repent for sins he doesn't know he committed. Brother Theo's interpretation is undoubtedly what the Church would say (as long as you are sincere, repent, God will understand kind of reasoning). But that just isn't good enough for Brother Edwards. He has a sincere need to repent, since that's the kind of guy he's been programmed to be, now.

The whole ethical issue of using mind-wiping is a pretty intense one if you look at it from this perspective.

The writing is great, in my opinion. The characters are all believeable. And the moment of revulsion at the end: perfection.

Talk about making your point clear and yet personal, you know?

RW7427 October 5th 05 00:16

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

C! ;)

I voted C because I don't much care for the whole Brother Edward story.

Jan October 5th 05 00:28

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

The writing is great, in my opinion. The characters are all believeable. And the moment of revulsion at the end: perfection.

Talk about making your point clear and yet personal, you know?

Nicely said, Hypatia. I agree competely!

Jan

KoshFan October 5th 05 13:20

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Right, I forgot about Sheridan's trouble shaking hands at the end.

vacantlook October 8th 05 04:09

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
I personally enjoyed Lyta's small part in this episode. I seem to enjoy pretty much every time she useds her powers for good in a shady kind of way.

macmaccaman October 8th 05 15:21

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

Quote:

C! ;)

I voted C because I don't much care for the whole Brother Edward story.

D, I truly can't stand this episode.

Jade Jaguar October 9th 05 07:47

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:


I had no idea Brad Douriff could act until this episode. ?


Gee, I can't let that pass. :p

Brad is one of my favorite actors. He doesn't always get the best roles, but when he does, he's great. He was nominated for an Academy Award for playing Billy in One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, and he does a great job in John Huston's Wise Blood. Those are two of his best. I'd put PTG up there as well.

KoshFan October 9th 05 18:52

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Then he goes and shaves his eyebrows off and becomes incredibly slimy and evil. The man's pretty impressive.

B5_Obsessed October 9th 05 19:01

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
I rated it "Good". Excellent concept, shaky execution. Brad Douruff is excellent but, as I've said before, it troubles me to see Douriff almost always typecast as a psycho. You may recall that Douriff also played Ensign Suter, the homicidal Betazoid (who eventually redeems himself) on Star Trek Voyager.

JMS often speaks of the pitfalls of typecasting, but in this instance he fell right into it. Yes, the scene between Theo and Edward near the end is heartbreaking; very good stuff, but the end of the ep is a little to clean, too convenient, too Twilight Zone-ish.

YES, Joe, we get the moral. ;)

RW7427 October 9th 05 19:26

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

it troubles me to see Douriff almost always typecast as a psycho

Yeah, he certainly played one in Lord of the Rings. :lol:

KoshFan October 10th 05 01:37

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Well, is "Gethsemane" really typecasting for Dourif? Sure, he played a psychotic killer in it -- but he also played someone struggling for understanding and redemption. A little more interesting. And he sounds like such a gentle soul in the LotR interviews.

Jade Jaguar October 10th 05 03:01

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
He was the gentlest of souls as Billy, in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. His new personality in PTG was also very gentle.

B5_Obsessed October 10th 05 03:45

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
That was the thing. When "Gesthemene" started, I was so pleased to see him playing that type of character for a change, and then WHAM! Guess what? He's a serial killer. A remember voicing my disappointment out loud at the time.

Jade Jaguar October 10th 05 05:37

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

then WHAM! Guess what? He's a serial killer.

No, he was a serial killer. That is quite a different thing. When we see him, he is quite a different person. That is part of what I like so much about this ep. It shows that we are not slaves to our genes, we have vast possibilities in life. The same person could turn out in such different ways. If his life had been different in some ways, he would never have become a serial killer. Once that was erased, he was free to be a much better person, which is the person we saw.

There is an ill-named, and not overly good scifi film, The Butterfly Effect, that uses that theme, that differences in our lives can lead us to be quite different people. I did like that aspect of that film.

GaribaldisHair October 10th 05 09:26

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
There is also a little thing called "hiring the actor that you think will do the best job playing the character". Brother Edward gave BD the chance to play both sides of the coin at the same time - don't forget, we never actually see the serial killer character except in a few brief shots of vid from the trial and a brief flashback.

The character that we see, and the character that BD plays pretty much throughout the episode, is the "reformed" Brother Edward, not Charles Dexter.

If you want your audience to believe that the gentle, deep thinking and humble man you see before you was once a vicious serial murderer then you need to hire an actor who can pull that off in just a few very short scenes. Dourif did that very very well ... and the fact that we have seen him play that type of character before probably helped that along.

B5obsessive October 20th 05 15:55

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Brilliant! Also note that this is the first of the LONG list of messes that Lyta teeps them out of, only to be completely ignored once the situation is sorted. That always drove me nuts. She helped them over and over because it was the right thing, and got zip. The odd "thank you" would have saved them SO much trouble later.

KoshN October 20th 05 16:22

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

Brilliant! Also note that this is the first of the LONG list of messes that Lyta teeps them out of, only to be completely ignored once the situation is sorted. That always drove me nuts. She helped them over and over because it was the right thing, and got zip. The odd "thank you" would have saved them SO much trouble later.

Yeah, it's called being underappreciated and taken for granted, and something we're probably all familiar with. (Yeah, I know I ended with a preposition. Send the Narns with bats.)

GaribaldisHair October 21st 05 08:39

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Absolutely. Here begins Lyta's long road to Byron's ... erm ... cause.

:D

Boxie October 21st 05 21:22

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
:DI liked this one! :lol: I know...but what can I say, I like them all! I gave it an "A", too! :D

Brad Douriff was so good. He was so convincingly tortured, shocked that he was once a cold-blooded killer!

I remember seeing him in Lord of the Rings. I just sat there and stared at him. It was his eyes...I kept telling myself, "I know those eyes!!" It took me a little while...the hair threw me off..but I finally figured out who it was! ;)

RW7427 October 22nd 05 21:54

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Yeah, it took me a while too, but then I said, "That's Brother Edward!" when I saw Grima. :lol:

Kaleb October 23rd 05 00:14

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
I just finished watching two towers with my girlfriend, and whenever I see wormtongue, I just go 'thats suder'. The entire film there was something else nagging at me. This is it!

Jacqui January 12th 06 13:58

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
This is one of my top 5 favorite eps of the entire saga. Mainly because of Douriff. I've been a fan of his for eons it seems and to have him play such a tragic and complex character was delightful. A *very* long way from Doc Cochran (Deadwood's sawbones, for those unfamiliar), but still one in a long line of brilliant characterizations from a master.

This brought to light some of JMS' most stirring and troubling themes. One, who among us would be brave enough to take one for the home team? Two, what is the nature of forgiveness and is it **really** possible to totally forgive someone?

Truly deep stuff. I just watched it again on DVD and even after all this time of B5 drought here in my little hermitage, it's still just as riveting as ever.

Oh, and by way of post script. . .this is proof that no good deed goes unpunished--Lyta's abandonment by the very people she's helped to save so many times, despite certain personal peril. And, what goes around comes around. The poster above said it: a little gratitude would've gone a very long way with Lyta. Too bad they were all too blind to appreciate what she did. Well, other than poor little Zack and his really unappetizing-looking pizza. :lol:

Jacqui

hypatia January 12th 06 21:17

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

One, who among us would be brave enough to take one for the home team?

I agree with much of what you say, Jacqui. But...

handing yourself over to a murderous enemy in these circumstances is just STUPID. :rolleyes:

Sorry, it's not that I don't like this episode. It's actually my favorite episode of B5, ever.

But I see that decision of Brad's character to be an indication of his mental confusion and a need to feel he's "paid' for his sins.

I don't see that as taking one for the home team. The home team would have been a hell of a lot better off if he'd managed to stay calm and work it out rationally.

But that would have robbed us of that beautiful ending. :)

Jacqui January 12th 06 22:48

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Hi Hypatia!

Actually, I was making a reference to the Biblical Gathsemane and Jesus. One of those early portent-laden analogies of Sheridan as Christ-like figure, played out with another, more expendable character in the role of sacrificial lamb. That's also how poor Brother Edward thought of it as well, hence his comments about not knowing whether or not, should the ultimate sacrifice be asked of him, like Jesus in the Garden, would he be able to surrender himself up to the mob and destiny.

I agree, it was a terrible loss, but acted as a great morality fable when the ring leader of Brother Edward's persecutors ends up as Theo's newest accolyte. What is the nature of forgiveness and sacrifice, and also the meaning of justice versus punishment. It certainly left Sheridan speechless and the expression on Brother Theo's face was pricelss as he delivered the final message.

And yes. . .a truly touching ending.

Jacqui

hypatia January 13th 06 00:27

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

I agree, it was a terrible loss, but acted as a great morality fable when the ring leader of Brother Edward's persecutors ends up as Theo's newest accolyte.

My point is that it wasn't a terrible loss as much as a terrible waste. But yes, for the reason you mention, it was absolutely necessary for the ultimate "now, what about when YOU are the one so effected?" angle that is so neatly pulled off at the end.

I just have to see it as a bad choice by brother Edwards, and not a necessary sacrifice.

Hee hee, but is that like saying "why DIDN'T Socrates just... lay off of people for awhile?", isn't it? ;)

Boxie January 13th 06 13:19

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
I always thought it sad that Brother Edward didn't extend the same hope of forgiveness to himself that he would have to anyone else.

Had he been approached by an individual tortured by his past deeds, he would have strapped himself to that person's side, bent on making them understand there is forgiveness.

I think the mind swipe itself, the shock of realizing who he had been and what he'd done, all played a part in his final decision.

hypatia January 13th 06 13:38

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Or unhinged him. I just find the episode so much easier to make sense of if I see his decision as being one made during a mentally clouded moment.

And very good point, Boxie: he would never have demanded this of anyone. But then, that fits into the fable perfectly, too, doesn't it? :)

Boxie January 13th 06 19:53

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

Or unhinged him. I just find the episode so much easier to make sense of if I see his decision as being one made during a mentally clouded moment.

Yeah, that's I mean...I think this was a "clouded" decision. Didn't Garibaldi say that no one really knows the long-term effects of the mind-sweep? Is it possible then that, once someone remembers, they could ... :( flip out... act irrationally, etc... and possibly do something neither the old or new personality would have done?

hypatia January 14th 06 12:39

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
That certainly makes sense to me.

Jade Jaguar January 15th 06 02:59

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
I think part of the reason he effectively committed suicide is that he was afraid that his old, murderous personality was reemerging, and he couldn't live with that possibility, or allow the risk to others. Douriff is one of my favorite, under-appreciated actors, and has been since I saw One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, when it first came out.

Jacqui January 15th 06 11:25

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

I think part of the reason he effectively committed suicide is that he was afraid that his old, murderous personality was reemerging, and he couldn't live with that possibility, or allow the risk to others.

I completely agree with you on this. That's why he "sacrificed" himself, "took one for the home team," or however you'd like to label it. The very idea of the serial killer in him reemerging drove him to it.

How was the death of personality carried out? My brain is like a sieve these days. Did the Psi Corps do it? If so. . .now that IS a terrifying thought. . .talk about a weapon for pacification. We mundanes wouldn't stand a chance.

And on another note, if you're a Douriff fan, don't miss his performance as Doc Cochran in Deadwood. He's more than brilliant. He's mezmerizing!

Jacqui

Jan January 15th 06 13:56

Re: EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
 
Quote:

How was the death of personality carried out? My brain is like a sieve these days. Did the Psi Corps do it? If so. . .now that IS a terrifying thought. . .talk about a weapon for pacification. We mundanes wouldn't stand a chance.

It wasn't absolutely specified I'm pretty sure that the telepaths only scan before and after but the wipe is done mechanically somehow. In 'The Quality of Mercy' the Ombuds said:

"...It is therefore the decision of this court that you be sentenced to the death of personality. You will be committed under guard to a medlab facility, where you will be telepathically scanned, and then brainwiped. The personality of Karl Edward Mueller will be totally and completly erased. After a second scan to determine that the personality that committed the crimes has been eradicated, you will then be programmed with a new set of memories...."

And in the next scene Franklin mentions that he'll need to check over the equipment to make sure the process is painless.
Jan


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