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-   -   EpDis: The Fall Of Night (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8435)

RW7427 March 8th 09 00:18

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Me too. Not only was there alot of action, drama, and serious stuff, but there were comedic times such as this that helped contribute to the greatness of the show.

A_M_Swallow March 8th 09 14:33

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamer (Post 337538)
Excellent episode, no matter how many times I watch it.

Aside from the obvious over how Sheridan's jump looked, I always found it more curious how no-one looked at Sheridan differently, being saved by an angel. Granted, such a creature might gather attention quite differently than even someone who's falling through the air, but to no-one to even mention this later on as they got time to go through what happened... well, it's curious at the least. Definitely something that should've been handled at least somehow.

In a later episode aliens come to Babylon 5 to worship the "angel".

RW7427 March 9th 09 01:11

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by A_M_Swallow (Post 337743)
In a later episode aliens come to Babylon 5 to worship the "angel".

"Poke the plant." ;)

dencor March 13th 09 03:48

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RW7427 (Post 337773)
"Poke the plant." ;)

have to love the drazi.

dreamer March 23rd 09 17:04

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by A_M_Swallow (Post 337743)
In a later episode aliens come to Babylon 5 to worship the "angel".

You're right!

Can't see how I managed to forget that since I love Zack and hey, it's a great scene :)

Still, it puzzles me to no end that JMS pretty much skipped this whole thing, considering how big a thing religion was in his scripts. I don't think I'm exaggerating in the slightest if I say that something like this happening there would've changed great many things, starting from the "neutral" position of the worlds of the League of the Non-Alligned worlds towards B5. Also, I would've expected at least similar behaviour towards Sheridan that he got after he returned to B5 with Lorien later on.

I guess it would've changed things too much and they let it slide.

KoshFan March 24th 09 19:38

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamer (Post 338675)
I don't think I'm exaggerating in the slightest if I say that something like this happening there would've changed great many things, starting from the "neutral" position of the worlds of the League of the Non-Alligned worlds towards B5. Also, I would've expected at least similar behaviour towards Sheridan that he got after he returned to B5 with Lorien later on.

The neutral worlds were willing to help with B5's defense, and came together to form a fleet; a lot of this was hard work and diplomacy on Delenn and Sheridan's part, and a lot was the timely intervention of the Vorlons, but maybe some of it was because some species felt the place was blessed?

And I thought Sheridan did get some similar behavior towards him -- which annoyed Garibaldi no end -- to the point that a bunch of alien ships came to his rescue on Earth in Season 4. Sure, Delenn talked them around, but they came to help one man.

Estelyn September 3rd 10 15:15

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
I must confess, I never noticed whether or not Sheridan's hair moved - since others have discussed that problem at length, I will comment on other matters.

Two people comment on Londo's change - Vir says the ambassador looks different, and Garibaldi says he"s "not the Londo I knew". I find the latter's attitude interesting - he recognized Londo's vulnerability underneath the mask of arrogance and harshness.

There are two mentions of B5 as hope - the only hope for the Narn ship, and Ivanova's "last best hope for victory" near the end. I like having her voice as narrator - it foreshadows the title sequence of the next season.

Another foreshadowing - Sheridan's speech about pride in his uniform. From future events, we already know that it won't be restored, but replaced.

I do like the fact that Sheridan once again beats Earth government by going by the book and quoting it at them.

Lots of significant details - Londo standing alone at the reception, for example, no one talking to him. And the fact that he sees nothing is interesting - the Shadows block out the light.

I like the two different terms for the Vorlons, used by Delenn and Sheridan - "guiding" vs. "manipulating". Kosh does seem to be a ladies' man, doesn't he?! It's Delenn and Lyta who are fascinated by him, while the men are sceptical.

I don't always notice the soundtrack, but this time I was aware of the angelic sounding music when Kosh comes to Sheridan's rescue. I liked the wing effect that was used - nothing quite definable, nor really solid. I must say though, I can't help but wonder about what happens in the eyes of the beholders here - are their eyes or their brains manipulated by the Vorlons? He can't himself appear as more than one thing at the same time, can he?

vacantlook September 3rd 10 15:45

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn (Post 364766)
...I must say though, I can't help but wonder about what happens in the eyes of the beholders here - are their eyes or their brains manipulated by the Vorlons? He can't himself appear as more than one thing at the same time, can he?

If I remember correctly, it is alluded to being telepathic manipulation from vorlons that make them look different to different people. And that doing so is exhausting to a vorlon; at the beginning of season three, Kosh had been spending some time recovering on board his ship.

Alioth May 13th 12 09:50

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 307813)
It was hinted at that the Centauri once worshipped the Shadows as gods, so the Vorlons probably never bothered to alter them, what with their distaste for touching anything a Shadow had already touched.

I missed that hint (that they had worshipped the Shadows) in all my viewings and readings. Was there something I missed (I often do find some new thing in repeat viewings)? Unless it had to do with
Spoiler for Technomage Trilogy (a big one):
their first emperor being blessed by technomages, and the association therein.
In the time of B5 anyway, they were a polytheistic race with various household gods that seemed to be purposed for bestowing various "worldly" advantages, rather than teaching larger (and more universal) lessons of ideals and such--and I got the impression that was long part of their cultural history. They didn't seem to be idealistically inclined one way or another, but lived almost strictly for their own pleasures and ambitions--which would probably make them easy pickings for Shadow manipulation, without any direct worship per se (or even awareness of them).

And the Centauri had telepaths--and Vorlons were generally responsible for the emergence of telepaths in at least most of the younger races (although I think it was said to be "all" of them that had them, but I'm not sure). Were there naturally-evolved exceptions in some races? Otherwise, the Vorlons did alter them, in that way.

Alioth May 13th 12 10:32

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 338768)
Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamer (Post 338675)
I don't think I'm exaggerating in the slightest if I say that something like this happening there would've changed great many things, starting from the "neutral" position of the worlds of the League of the Non-Alligned worlds towards B5. Also, I would've expected at least similar behaviour towards Sheridan that he got after he returned to B5 with Lorien later on.

The neutral worlds were willing to help with B5's defense, and came together to form a fleet; a lot of this was hard work and diplomacy on Delenn and Sheridan's part, and a lot was the timely intervention of the Vorlons, but maybe some of it was because some species felt the place was blessed?

I'm not sure just how many directly witnessed the "divine intervention". Of those that only hear about it second-hand, there probably was a lot of skepticism, along with some believers. That there were some who were there, who saw or claimed they saw nothing (Londo might not have been the only one) would of course feed that skepticism as well.

I think the level of attention, number of pilgrims, and reveredness for B5 and Sheridan we do see was probably par for course for what such "miracles" (believe them or not) generally get. After Sheridan's "resurrection" later on, that attention and reverence grew though. What we're seeing are the beginnings of what might turn into a religion later on (I think "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" alluded to a religion around Sheridan's "divinity" growing further over the coming centuries--IIRC--and the "trinity" of "The One" did seem to imply that a religion would grow around their "great story", as I don't think it was coincidence that JMS presented it that way). But religions don't always (or even usually) take off among the masses overnight. Christianity didn't.

babylonfan May 13th 12 21:16

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alioth (Post 397009)
Vorlons were generally responsible for the emergence of telepaths in at least most of the younger races (although I think it was said to be "all" of them that had them, but I'm not sure). Were there naturally-evolved exceptions in some races? Otherwise, the Vorlons did alter them, in that way.

Weren't the Drakh also telepathic? No cross species, but between themselves? Or was that more a Techno-mage electron-incantation style form of communcation? That is, more technological then genetic / evolutionary?

JoeD80 May 14th 12 19:29

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alioth (Post 397009)
They didn't seem to be idealistically inclined one way or another, but lived almost strictly for their own pleasures and ambitions--which would probably make them easy pickings for Shadow manipulation, without any direct worship per se (or even awareness of them).

My impression is that the Centauri weren't involved with the Shadows or Vorlons prior to the time of B5. Morden talking to Londo was their first contact with them. It was an advantage for the Shadows that the enemy Londo had was the race without telepaths.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alioth (Post 397009)
And the Centauri had telepaths--and Vorlons were generally responsible for the emergence of telepaths in at least most of the younger races (although I think it was said to be "all" of them that had them, but I'm not sure).

In dialogue, I'm pretty sure that we only ever hear that the Vorlons created human telepaths. There is the scene in "Secrets of the Soul" when Byron picks up Lyta's memories of the Vorlon homeworld that shows some other species but I can't recall which ones.

Jan May 15th 12 14:51

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeD80 (Post 397099)
In dialogue, I'm pretty sure that we only ever hear that the Vorlons created human telepaths. There is the scene in "Secrets of the Soul" when Byron picks up Lyta's memories of the Vorlon homeworld that shows some other species but I can't recall which ones.

In "Secrets of the Soul" Byron said:

Quote:

They created telepaths on a hundred
worlds. Interfered with their
genetic development. Took people
from their homeworlds and adjusted
them over the course of centuries.
...so I suppose he got that from Lyta's memory of being in the tank. What I've never decided is whether that was actually Lyta's memory - when they added her gills, perhaps - or whehter it was similar to what she experienced when she scanned Kosh in "The Gathering" and was projecting herself into another person's memories.

Jan

JoeD80 May 15th 12 20:10

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Oh I forgot that speech from Byron. I haven't quite made it up to the fifth season in my current run-through.

I was thinking that those were Lyta's actual memories of when the Vorlons made modifications to her to increase her powers.

Lennier's Tears February 2nd 15 00:45

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
This is a fantastic season-ending episode. There's so much good stuff in it.

The Kosh reveal is the big one, I suppose. I still get excited about it every time. It's most exciting when I'm watching with someone new to B5, but even just by myself, it's a good time :p Ten years after this thread's discussion of whether Sheridan's hair moved, wind speed, and whether that scene looked wrong .. I don't have much to add, other than that in 2015 it most certainly does look wrong. Unless perhaps Kosh is using some telekinetic power to hold Sheridan up, instead of physically holding him by the arms ...

I love the Frederick Lantz visit! He's so kindly and grandfatherly and everyone believes things are going to go well, and then he does the opposite of what everyone expects! "We will at last know peace in our time!" A nice example of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, and perfectly realistic. Nothing is ever simply black and white in Babylon 5, and that's why it's great.

Welles and the nightwatch are great, too (why does he look so familiar??? Oh, right, Neroon). They are getting less subtle, and more creepy.

Keffer and the Shadow ship .. Very creepy and ominous. A great ending for the episode. I have a minor quibble with it, in that Keffer ejected the recording before the Shadow ship fired at him, yet the shooting part is included in the video. Maybe it was still recording as it was ejected, and only stopped when the connection between it and the starfury was broken when it exploded?


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