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-   -   EpDis: The Fall Of Night (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8435)

vacantlook September 5th 05 04:07

EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for The Fall Of Night
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for The Fall Of Night

vacantlook September 5th 05 04:18

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
I often find it interesting to think of this episode compared to "The Long Twilight Struggle." I think a lot of writers who sought to end a season would probably have gone with the events of "The Long Twilight Struggle" as it's a lot more explosive and far-reaching in terms of location of the more obvious side of its plot. But I like that jms went with "The Fall Of Night" for the end of season two. It's more localized basic plot is a contrast to what I think could be expected from other writers, but it's got such a degree of ominousness to it that really gets me good. From Earth signing the nonagression treaty with the Centauri despite what we as viewers get to see in that the Centauri are definitely the more vicious of the sides in the Centauri-Narn War, to Delenn telling Sheridan that those who would understand what Kosh's revealing himself would truly mean would wonder if the Vorlons were prepared for the coming war but that Delenn didn't think the Vorlons really were, and then the Keffer's guncam footage being broadcast with the voiceover of we don't know who they are statement: it all just gives me a bit of heebiejeebies. The revelation of Kosh is breathtaking. And Ivanova's ending monologue about peace and victory is stunning to me too.

RW7427 September 5th 05 05:45

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Excellent ep indeed! One of my favs of season 2! :cool:

darth_librarian September 5th 05 11:55

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Long Twighlight Struggle and this Episode were probably two of my fav's for the plot development and effects alone. The pacing at the end of season two was really excellent, I think that and the start of season three were the dramatic high point of B5. I really loved the character of Mr Wells in this, as well as Londo's turn as a Napoleonic power monger, followed by his inability to see the Vorlon.

Oatley1 September 5th 05 11:56

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
At the time, the fire-fight outside the Station had me gob-smacked. I had never seen anything like it on TV Sci-Fi before. Of course, by the time Severed Dreams rolled out, it was a baby in comparison.

And the impending doom glimpsed in the shape of a Shadow ship - just fantastic!

KoshFan September 5th 05 15:27

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
One of my favorites. However, JMS in the commentary ruined something for me... they really should have gotten a fan on Boxleitner to make it look as if he was actually falling. Who hits the ground at 60 mph and his hair doesn't get ruffled?

But this is one of my favorite episodes too. From the tension of the Narn-Centauri plot to the sudden unexpected turn of Kosh's revelation, this is truly fine.

Jade Jaguar September 5th 05 15:52

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
The way this ep ramps up the tension on all fronts, leaves everything in unsettled turmoil, and has the revelation of Kosh, makes it one of the most intense and portentious eps in the whole series. Great way to end a season. Definitely an A.

RW7427 September 5th 05 16:34

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Who hits the ground at 60 mph and his hair doesn't get ruffled?


A Ken doll, of course. :devil: :p

hypatia September 5th 05 16:41

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
What exactly did he say in his commentary, KoshF?

Jade Jaguar September 5th 05 16:56

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Quote:

Who hits the ground at 60 mph and his hair doesn't get ruffled?


A Ken doll, of course. :devil: :p

Ken's hair is always in a mess these days. He's still depressed because Barbie dumped him. :D

Springer September 5th 05 17:43

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
I love this episode. It starts off slow, but events are very disconcerting and foreboding, and it all comes to a head when the Centauri cruiser turns up. By the end of it, the feeling of dread and doom and everything going wrong is tangible, especially in Ivanova's voice over. And the Shadow ship is just ominous. Love the way Keffer gets his face torched off!

Oh, and when do Hollywood heroes ever get their hair ruffled?!

fisheggs September 5th 05 19:40

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Along with everything else mentioned, I really loved Sheridan's rehearsing his "apology".

RW7427 September 5th 05 20:27

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Yeah, that part is great! :D

KoshN September 5th 05 21:52

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

One of my favorites. However, JMS in the commentary ruined something for me... they really should have gotten a fan on Boxleitner to make it look as if he was actually falling. Who hits the ground at 60 mph and his hair doesn't get ruffled?

Someone being lowered to the ground by Kosh Naranek, going from 0mph (at the station axis) to 60mph at ground level, gradually as he descended, and being in sync with groundspeed at ground level.

KoshFan September 6th 05 01:39

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Yeah. Except his hair doesn't move even when he's still falling without any Vorlon support. Which is essentially what JMS said.

fisheggs September 6th 05 06:41

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Agree with Koshn, though it may have been a mistake, it could also be accurate. Gravity is an accelerating force, so going from nil, (though I didn't notice the other passengers floating anywhere? so maybe not nil?) you alter the acceleration curve (F=MxA), the mass stays the same but accelleration due to gravity is/was altered by local temperal-spacial conditions. :devil:

KoshN September 6th 05 06:44

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Yeah. Except his hair doesn't move even when he's still falling without any Vorlon support. Which is essentially what JMS said.

Hmmm, I thought his hair did move a bit, shortly after he jumped out of the core shuttle. I'll have to rewatch the ep.

Anyway, when he was falling without any Vorlon support, he was fairly near the station axis, and so would not have been falling very fast (axis should be zero G). His speed away from the axis wouldn't have been very great, and the component of groundspeed from the axis to where Kosh caught him wouldn't have been very great, either. Hair movement would have been mainly caused from the speed of the core shuttle in the direction of the axis, plus the speed of his jump away from the shuttle.

KoshFan September 6th 05 16:23

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Accurate or not, it looked wrong.

GaribaldisHair September 6th 05 17:00

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Accurate or not, it looked wrong.

Which unfortunately is exactly the reasoning behind seeing stars in the space shots and hearing the sounds of engines, guns and explosions in the vacuum of space.

It may be completely and utterly inaccurate but to our earthbound eyes .. it looks right.

:rolleyes:

Sindatur September 6th 05 17:20

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
I've seen several football coaches in massive winds, where things are being blown over, who have so much hairspray on, not a hair moves. Why couldn't we just believe John Sheridan's hair was glued in place with hairspray?

sleepy_shadow September 6th 05 19:49

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
I deem the depiction fairly acceptable -- even if I too suspect the 'ballistically correct way of Sheridan "falling"'... would have required him to experience a bit more wind.

After all... once he's drifted away from the core region (assuming air matches the station's angular velocity, the linear velocity of air at core would be negligible)... he would experience increasingly fast air, trying to take him spinward (along with the stations's rotation)...

...but instead taking him spinward and outward (mass doesn't want to spin, but prefers going straight along its current velocity vector).

To some degree, air would succeed in taking him along spinward... due to which he would never experience wind speeds approaching the linear velocity of the station exterior... but he might experience wind speeds extending to half of that.

Finally, something with Sheridan's density could be predicted to thump down at an oblique angle (relative to ground) of say, 45 degrees...

...while a feather, having totally matched air speed, would float down vertically, and a strontium ball (having ignored air speed due to its density) would appear to make circles around the station core, continue making circles while drifting outward, and eventually hit a ground obstacle horizontally.

PillowRock September 6th 05 19:59

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

(assuming air matches the station's angular velocity,

I don't think that is a valid assumption for the entire radius of the station. The air would match the station speed at the "ground" level where there is a lot of surface area of contact acting on it. At the central core of the station I don't think that the air would have even the same angular velocity. The breezes there might actually be more influanced by the passing of the Core Shuttle cars.

I don't know what the function relating distance form "ground" to relative airspeed (either linear or angular) would be, though.

sleepy_shadow September 6th 05 20:08

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Heh. I don't know such functions either, especially for a zero-gravity environment. But think of it that way...

Ground accelerates air. Whenever the spinning part of the station has transfered too much momentum to the static part (via bearings and air)... the station presumably fires thrusters on the spinning part, and counter-thrusters on the static part, to correct pace.

But what decelerates air? Only the structures of the core, which necessarily must have significantly lower surface area (thus significantly lower ability to provide friction against air, especially given the necessarily low linear velocities "up there" in the center).

A gradient in the angular velocity of air may well exist (with the coremost air spinning lazily)... but it certainly *seems* likely to be heavily non-linear (in favour of the angular velocity of "ground").

PillowRock September 6th 05 21:04

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Ground accelerates air.

But what decelerates air?

The air does.

The air is not even close to being a monolithic entity. It isn't all being moved in the direction that the ground is pushing it. The air ends up bouncing off of other parts of the air. Energy (with different force vectors) are imparted to the air by the core shuttle passing through, by the ventilation system of the station, by the jet packs used by maitenance and emergency response crews (remember that the existance of those things is mentioned in this very episode), among other things. In fact, all of that stuff, and the effects from it that are transferred from the air to the hull are the primary force acting to slow down the rotation, forcing energy to be put back into the system by burning fuel to push the hull around.

The effects of different currents within the air are not negligible. On Earth rivers flow more rapidly a little below the surface than they do at the surface because of friction with the atmosphere (the difference isn't as great as the difference at the bottom or along shore where the friction is with the river bed, but the difference does still exist).

sleepy_shadow September 6th 05 23:22

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Turbulence from ground does exist... but turbulences eventually cancel each other out. Given time to stablize, I think the whole air mass would start spinning fairly cohesively.

Core shuttles are streamlined little things, going back and forth in the presumably calmest part of the station... and now that I think of it... I actually suspect the core shuttle rails/tubes/infrastructure... belong to the spinning part of the station (ease of boarding).

Ground shuttles, and shuttles going back and forth along middle levels... might cause a bit of turbulence too, but again... they are streamlined little things.

Jet packs are likely a very small influence, since I cannot imagine any notable number of people constantly using them (and their users would likely try sticking to the upper reaches of the air mass, to conserve flight energy).

Only the station ventilation and air filtration system... seems a fairly big unknown (since nobody knows its throughput, and how it's supposed to be layed out). Its approximate thoroughput could be calculated, though... assuming most inhabitants *do* breathe "ordinary" air, and tecgnological processes don't consume more than living creatures.

That calculation, though... is hardball ecology, and I can't even start to approximate a result in such a short time.

PillowRock September 6th 05 23:51

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Of course, the most fundamental issue is that air, like everything wants to move in a straight line. That's the way its inertia is taking it. It is only because the hull is in the way that it doesn't continue moving tha way once the initial force is applied.

The air is constantly having force applied to it by the hull. And then that air moving transmits that force to the next layer of air, and so on. But the air is not an efficient transmitter of that energy. All of the turbulance is a source of drag.

Going back to the movement of water in rivers, the water continues in straight line until something forces it to change direction. If there is a bend in a river, a drifting boat that starts in the middle of the river does not stay in the middle as it goes around a bend. It goes to the outside of the bend, continueing straight ahead until it is close enough to the bank that the "rejector current" that is bouncing off of the bank can start pushing it away from the shore and redirect it. That truth about how the water moves is why there is always much more erosion on the outside of a river bend (that's the side where trees fall in because the ground has eroded away from their roots; the outside is also always the deeper side unless there are significant geologic reasons why not).

And the core shuttle cars didnt look that much more aerodynamic tome than present day metro cars, and I *know* they create a breeze.

Shaal Mayan September 9th 05 23:59

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Excellant ending to the second season.

macmaccaman September 11th 05 00:09

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
I enjoy this episode a lot, more interesting elements added to the mix - understanding more of the Vorlons. I love the fact the "manipulation" of the alien races comes to the fore, brilliant revelation and I like how Londo can't see Kosh - nice follow on from Kosh's words in Midnight In The Firing Line: "they are alone...".
Though I felt that it was a bit of a betrayal really when I saw it "It was the year the great war came upon us all..." and it didn't really.

KoshFan September 12th 05 14:54

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Well, the opening shots had been fired -- what with the Shadows intervening in the Narn-Centauri War. And the first tentative steps had been taken towards fighting back by assembling the Army of Light, although that group had yet to do much by the end of S2.... the battle lines had been drawn.

Elipsis September 2nd 07 23:36

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Just watched this for the first time in proper sequence... absolutely epic. Lol at 27 "A" votes.

Did we ever get an answer if it was Londo who saw nothing or the entire Centari race?


Also, I loved the tension right before the Centari ship opened fire. Sheridan's reaction. "Oh hell. CLOSE BLAST DOORS." The entire battle sequence was epic. Seeing the piece of the station get blown off. omfg!

KoshFan September 3rd 07 05:02

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
It was hinted at that the Centauri once worshipped the Shadows as gods, so the Vorlons probably never bothered to alter them, what with their distaste for touching anything a Shadow had already touched.

vacantlook September 3rd 07 15:47

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Elipsis (Post 307792)
Did we ever get an answer if it was Londo who saw nothing or the entire Centari race?

Didn't one of the Centauri trilogy novels have Londo writing in his memoirs about it and saying that he just saw a ball of light?

KoshFan September 3rd 07 15:49

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Yes.

mandragora December 27th 07 15:02

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
The JMS commentary on this one had me confused. Kosh chose to "unmask" to save one life, because all life is sacred, for the Minbari as for the Vorlons? Well, certainly not true for the Minbari Warrier cast - and even Delenn threatened the Earth Captain with death in Severed Dreams. And the Vorlons - certainly all life wasn't sacred in Season 4, it also wasn't in Season 1 - Deathwalker. :confused:

maneth December 30th 07 08:47

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Indeed, and that's not really how I saw it. I don't think Kosh would have unmasked to save just anybody, but he already knew Sheridan had a special destiny and had to be saved. The Vorlons were just waiting for the right moment to unmask, and I guess this was as good a time as any.

dreamer March 5th 09 14:22

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Excellent episode, no matter how many times I watch it.

Aside from the obvious over how Sheridan's jump looked, I always found it more curious how no-one looked at Sheridan differently, being saved by an angel. Granted, such a creature might gather attention quite differently than even someone who's falling through the air, but to no-one to even mention this later on as they got time to go through what happened... well, it's curious at the least. Definitely something that should've been handled at least somehow.

G'Kar March 5th 09 17:51

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
One of my favorites of the season. The subtle approach seemed to always work for this show.

vacantlook March 5th 09 21:09

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Nice avatar, dreamer. :)

RW7427 March 6th 09 01:56

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Looks like it's that scene where she falls asleep at breakfast. ;)

vacantlook March 6th 09 02:08

Re: EpDis: The Fall Of Night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RW7427 (Post 337575)
Looks like it's that scene where she falls asleep at breakfast. ;)

Indeed. I enjoy that the show has fun but little, insignificant moments like that.


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