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-   -   EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8417)

PillowRock October 21st 05 18:40

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

The Next Generation did a Jack the Ripper episode? That one escapes me. Do you recall what its title/season is?

I can't think of one.

But there was a TOS episode that involved Jack .... after a fashion (malevolent, non-corporeal, person-posessing, space-traveling entity that was responsible for a string of Ripper-esque murders on a planet that Enterprise was visiting and had apparently been behind the Jack case in London as well).

Boxie October 21st 05 19:25

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
This has been bothering me, so I Google'd it. I found a reference to Jack the Ripper in the original series....It sounds like there may have been more than one episode, loosely or otherwise, based on Jack the Ripper. This is from Amazon.com:


Editorial Reviews
Amazon.com
A randy Captain Kirk (William Shatner), Dr. McCoy (DeForest Kelley), and Scotty (James Doohan) take shore leave on Argelius II, a trip that becomes a nightmare when Scotty is suspected in a series of murders. From its opening scene featuring a seductive belly dancer to the ultimate revelation of the killer's identity, "Wolf in the Fold" has the aura of a psychological horror story. No wonder: The script is by Robert Bloch, author of the novel Psycho (basis for the Hitchcock film), who also came up with the idea of the Enterprise computers being overtaken by none other than Jack the Ripper. Actor John Fiedler, whose raspy, high-pitched voice is most familiar as the sound of Piglet in Walt Disney's Winnie the Pooh, is very good as the ultra-annoying Hengist, a skeptical prosecutor out for Scotty's head. One of the few Trek episodes to focus on Scotty, "Wolf" is downright exotic at times in its spooky tone and depiction of the sensual life on Argelius II. (Director Joseph Pevney even spent some of Paramount's money getting a startling overhead shot of a seance.) Here's a weird factoid: Harlan Ellison, author of Trek's great "City on the Edge of Forever" episode, also once wrote a futuristic Jack-is-back story called (ta-da) "City on the Edge of Tomorrow." --Tom Keogh


:)Anyone else notice the name, Harlan Ellison? Is that OUR Harlan Ellison?

Sindatur October 21st 05 20:14

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Ryjack, Ryjack.

Yup, that's our Harlan alright

hypatia October 22nd 05 01:50

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
O.K. so that was a confustion between Star Trek The Next Generation and Star Trek, the Original Seriies? :confused:

Boxie October 22nd 05 08:11

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
:(I didn't write my part of that very well, Hypatia...

When there seemed to be some confusion over whether The Next Generation had a Jack the Ripper episode, I went looking. I Google'd Star Trek + Jack the Ripper and it came up with the reference I copied to my post. I didn't remember either of the two episodes in the original Star Trek and just thought it was an interesting side note..Sorry for the confusion. :oI get all excited when I find stuff like that!

Btw, I like the kitten! :D

Jade Jaguar October 23rd 05 05:40

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

Quote:

I found the plot incredible that the virtually omniscient, and certainly telepathic, Vorlons should have "doubts" or even need confirmation after all they had done to set up Sinclair, Delenn and Sheridan to maintain the order of the universe as they saw it.

jms said, "...the test was in some ways (most, actually) more for Delenn's benefit than Kosh's...."


Yes, that's what I thought. This was not so much of a test as a tempering of Delenn, and Sheridan. The Inquisitor's purpose was to get them to realize the personal, and human (or Minbari) reasons for their actions, not the philosophical and altruistic ones. It is on the gut level that one must survive the hardest times, that they were to face.

Stanley January 16th 06 06:54

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I found the review that I had mentioned earlier

Review by John Paul Green

Always one to steer clear of controversy, I feel I may be sticking my head firmly on the block with this little review. Putting it mildly, Comes The Inquisitor is the best B5 episode, if not of the entire series, then certainly up to the end of season 2.

"Justify yourself!" I hear you cry. Very well. Three names: G'kar, Vir and Sebastian. No coincidence.

"Who are you?"

Owing much to The Prisoner, the story is a simple one (as is often the case with great stories), yet it is also one of the most intense pieces of television to come out of the US. Delenn is summoned to meet the Inquisitor, in order for her to qualify to lead the great war that is coming. What could have been so easily a rather dull, padded out story, is nothing of the sort. Quite the reverse, in fact. The main reason for this is the Inquisitor himself - Sebastian. Played with relish by Wayne Alexander, he is evil incarnate. However, it is a fine line between good and evil, and Sebastian is certainly not your usual one dimensional villainous cipher. My God, this man even knows how to make a good entrance into Grey 19! As for The Prisoner references, how does this grab you:

"Have you nothing of your own? Nothing that is provided, defined, delineated, stamped, sanctioned, numbered and approved by others?"

"My life is my own..." anyone? Well, if you're going to paraphrase, better do it from the best. If only the room had been in Grey 6! It is interesting to note that Sebastian isn';t so far removed from another character played by Alexander. Isn't Sheridan asked similar questions to the ones leveled at Delenn in another time, another place?

The tap, tap-tapping of his cane is a wonderful moment of suspense and summons up images of Poe's The Raven. Like Marnau's Nosferatu, Sebastian steps out of the shadows all too easily, as the camera slowly pulls up to reveal the man. With cadaverous face and stern expression, you just know that this guy is going to get results - one way or another. Later we will also see signs of Poe's The Tell Tale Heart, during a literally heart-rending scene. One of the episode's charms (if you can call it that) is it's homage to classic, gothic literature, and the feelings it creates.

The inquisition itself is a tour de force that will leave you, as well as Delenn, begging to be left alone. Showing little mercy, Sebastian is intent on getting what he came for, whatever the cost or pain. Sound and vision are used to optimum effect throughout the interrogation, as Sebastian doles out pain with every stamp of his cane. This is wonderful stuff. Isn't it about time also, that we began to question the "goodness" of the Vorlons? Given the information we will later find out about Sebastian and all he stands for, can the Vorlons be that far removed from the Shadows? Discuss...

"Can you apologise to them?"

The only way a second story strand could compete with the intensity of the Inquisitor, and match Wayne Alexander's powerhouse performance, could be through a character as strong as G'kar. Andreas Katsulas, in arguably his finest hour, exudes pain and anger in equal measures. I speak, of course, of the elevator scene, where Vir's sincere apology for his peoples'; actions is met with calm fury. Has there ever been such a powerful and moving scene than G'kar cutting open his palm and bleeding for the fallen Narn? I think not.

Throughout the episode we see G'kar fighting to retain his right to lead, his dignity and his destiny. Stephen Furst must also take a bow for his perfectly timed and understated performance, first during G'kar's speech to his people, and then in the elevator.

It is to the credit of JMS' writing that we are presented with two stories tackling destiny from both sides. G'Kar must prove himself to his people, while Delenn must prove to the Vorlons and herself that she is certain of the path she has decided to take. Take a line from the script every minute and chances are you will have pulled a classic piece of dialogue, from "The Vorlons are!" to " You are a piece of the machine who thinks it is the whole of the machine" each sentence is crisp and so very relevant.

The quality doesn't stop at the script or performances, however, as we are treated to some of the best lighting and sound the programme has so far offered us. The interrogation room is suitably sinister and lit with the unease of the greatest expressionistic movies in mind - a most fitting sanctum for Sebastian and all he represents.

Given the amount of praise this episode has squeezed from me, it is only fair to point out that Sheridan really is pretty useless, and he does say "Hell" far too much to be taken seriously. It also left an uneasy feeling when the Inquisitor is finally finished with Delenn. The idea that love can conquer all seemed to drown the true message that it is to die for the one... you know the rest. These are but minor quibbles, however, and shouldn';t detract from the quality on offer.

In Sebastian, Babylon 5 has a real, three-dimensional character, one you want to see again. He is everything Star Trek's Q should have been, but sadly isn't. In fact, it's like comparing a lettuce to a diamond. G'kar is given some splendid scenes and Andreas Katsulas performs so well in them.

Yep, I liked this one. I liked it a lot.

Elipsis August 26th 07 18:59

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GKarsEye (Post 233628)
:)

Nah, not into that stuff, but I'm make an exception for Delenn.

I bet S&M with a Minbari would be the most painful, because they take so damn long to do everything.


lmao :lol:

The ritual of electric whip thingy.

Then we wait and meditate.

Then the Narn paingivers are used.

Then we meditate again...

No doubt it would be a mind job.

maneth August 27th 07 11:58

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I must admit I detested the Sebastian=Jack the Ripper gimmick. That makes this one of my least favorite B5 episodes, second only to The Deconstruction of Falling Stars. This one is at least redeemed by Sheridan and Delenn's willingness to die for each other. So a D.

KoshN August 29th 07 02:47

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maneth (Post 307216)
I must admit I detested the Sebastian=Jack the Ripper gimmick. That makes this one of my least favorite B5 episodes, second only to The Deconstruction of Falling Stars. This one is at least redeemed by Sheridan and Delenn's willingness to die for each other. So a D.

Well, I love the Sebastian=Jack the Ripper idea. Wayne Alexander's performance is incredibly good, especially when he's speaking about his experience with the Vorlons. Great stuff! His speech at the end is perfect. A+.

KoshFan August 29th 07 03:17

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
The "Jack the Ripper" gimmick works fairly well, I thought, but it's really the acting -- and the concept of really testing your would-be messiahs -- that makes me love this one to pieces.

hypatia August 29th 07 04:07

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I really liked it, too. But at the same time, I have to agree with Maneth's point of view.

Usually that's the kind of trick I consider to be rather... cheap. :o

But he didn't do this kind of thing again. If JMS had, then it really would have been pretty pathetic.

But just this once, I allowed myself the guilty pleasure of enjoying it. :lol:

vacantlook August 29th 07 04:14

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I think in other writer's hands, it would have been cheap, but jms pulled it off far better than most would have. I think most would have had it been Jack the Ripper for the sake of "Ooh, it's Jack the Ripper". But jms used him as a demonstration of what Sheridan and Delenn aren't: they aren't ego-driven World-Savers™. In this particular instance, and written in this particular way, it works for me. I can easily imagine it not working for me too, though, had the writing been different.

KoshN August 29th 07 04:20

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 307399)
The "Jack the Ripper" gimmick works fairly well, I thought, but it's really the acting --

...plus the writing, especially Sebastian's words when speaking about his experiences with the Vorlons, and that final "Jack" speech (which gives me goosebumps. :D ). I knew it was coming, but to hear Wayne's delivery and see that camera work...... <Brrrrr!> It just sends a chill. It's a combination of the writing, the acting and the camera work. Great stuff!

hypatia August 29th 07 04:22

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Indeed.

But different people like different things. Like so much of B5 this is either a favored episode for you, one one that didn't cut it for you.

At least his writing gets a response, eh? :)

Estelyn September 2nd 10 20:28

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I find this episode almost unbearable. Having the race we think is good, the Vorlons, initiating the torture of an ally, is inexplicable. This is where first doubts come up as to the real nature of the Vorlons. Both they and Sebastian are sadistic - does the end justify the means? And do the Vorlons use him to keep their hands clean of the dirty work?

The whole interrogation and torture scenario reminded me of one of the best Star Trek NG shows, where Picard is interrogated by a Cardassian - a foe, not an ally.

I thought it was interesting that the lighting in Grey 19 was so similar to that of the Grey Council - where we last saw Delenn being expelled from the Nine.

The other thing that I noticed throughout the inquisition was the number of Bible references. The final quote was the most noticeable, of course, about "no greater love than to lay down your life for another", but there are others as well. Did anyone else think that Sheridan's body position when held captive had a remarkable similarity to a crucifixion position?

As to the second plot element - the elevator scene between Vir and G'Kar was excellently done! What a difficult situation to find yourself alone with your enemy at close quarters, an enemy to whom the greatest injustice has been done by your people. Both Vir's apology and G'Kar's reply were well written and well acted, moments of character development crucial to future episodes.

Jan September 2nd 10 21:08

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I don't recall the name but JMS's theory about the identity of the Ripper was that it was a reverend. Part of the logic was that the murders stopped when that person emigrated to the States.

The fact that the Vorlon's morality was questionable at best had been with me ever since Kosh fragged Deathwalker. But when you look closely, you'll also see that sometimes our 'good guy' characters use an 'ends justify the means' excuse, too. They check private financial records, skirt the rules for telepaths regularly and indulge in other 'grey' behavior.

Jan

JoeD80 September 8th 10 16:54

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 364753)
I don't recall the name but JMS's theory about the identity of the Ripper was that it was a reverend.

Samuel Barnett.

Alioth March 26th 11 05:31

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 364753)
The fact that the Vorlon's morality was questionable at best had been with me ever since Kosh fragged Deathwalker.

Hmmm, I had no problem with that whatsoever. I figured they probably knew (telepathically, or through infiltrating the Wind Swords who harbored her, or just... the way they seem to know things, to be paying a lot more attention than they appear to sometimes) how the drug worked--the stuff Deathwalker revealed at the end, about it requiring the death of another to provide a key ingredient--and knew full well the implications that she described ("you will become us"). It would have set the Shadow agenda, writ large, even if Shadows weren't involved with her work or even her people (and who knows?). A literal, brutal, survival of the most ruthless. Very rarely if ever in those times, did the Vorlons pop out with a warship and expose themselves in that way--their interventions tended to be a lot more subtle than that. I can see why they chose to in this case, if that became the only way of stopping her invention from getting out into the larger galaxy. Indeed this move saved millions or billions of lives, as this was not an invention that "could be used for good or evil": the way it worked required murder. Such decisions, weighing one or a few lives against many, are made in war, too.

I think everyone watching in that room, rightly, gave a sigh of relief that the Vorlons did what needed to be done, and took the responsibility for doing so when politics, orders, greed for advantage, etc. impeded anyone else from doing it.

Alioth March 26th 11 14:36

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Just watched this one in my second time through the series. Oh yeah, this is definitely one of the best ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QMCO5 (Post 240931)
I doubt very much whether the Vorlons believe any of that impure motive yields impure results stuff.

Well, I believe that. I mean, your motives are what guide your decisions, not just the great ones, but the small ones in between, that keep things together, and that lead to the next great decision. Doing the right thing is a continuous act, a journey if you will. It will determine the further direction of the results of your act, how you will use what you've built. They weren't destined to just fight the Shadows, but to build a lasting structure of peace afterwards.

A good decision for a bad motive is incidental. What follows from that is not guaranteed to be good. Once they started, Delenn and Sheridan had to see this through all the way, and had to be motivated by love of their fellow person at the gut level--a love that will be there whether it is seen and celebrated or totally unseen and unrewarded--to carry it through successfully, to be guided continuously in all their actions by that love. They are about to take on a great responsibility with the fate of all the peoples of the galaxy in the balance, for the side of "light"--they'd better be for real. There are many examples as bad (or worse) than Jack the Ripper, of people who've presumed for themselves such a task, without real love of their fellow people on that basic, gut level. "Without love, all my actions are meaningless" to sum up Paul's letter to the Corinthians. The test was brutal, sure, but for something like this, for the commission they had, it had to be. If they were the wrong kind of people, it would end in disaster. And I think they also had to know for themselves this danger, so they could be sure to keep this love at the center of their endeavors. It was a lesson for them as well as a test--and if Kosh already knew they were the right people, they still had to know, and know why, so they could stay so.

I like to think that at least Kosh among the Vorlons knew that the time of the first ones' supervision of the galaxy was coming to an end, or that it should. He told the Captain he must learn to "fight legends". Some other things he said and did seem to hint at this too, that he was attempting to prepare them for succession--and I think he forfeited his life knowing it would further this process along. So yeah, these people would stand for the side of "light", be the ones to take the lead, when they were gone. He wanted to be damned sure they would start it off with the best footing possible.

Alioth March 27th 11 06:11

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
We also see G'Kar having to prove his leadership to his fellow Narns, although in not near the same way. And the scene between him and Vir in the elevator was one of B5's great moments.

GKarsEye March 28th 11 20:16

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Watched this one last night, and I dunno maybe it was the mood I was in or whatever but I enjoyed the pants off of it this time. Sebastian was just being such a dick; a tremendously enjoyable performance.

The final stretch of season 2, with this one and Centauri obliterating Narn and the not-really-a-cliffhanger ending, is just great.

Still love this damn show after all this time.

RW7427 March 28th 11 23:40

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

Sebastian was just being such a dick
Being a big Sheridan fan, I used to watch this episode and be all pissed off at Sebastian for what he was doing to him. :lol:

Bab5nutz April 24th 11 21:28

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Slightly OT here.

Last year, we adopted a little rescue cat. His name? Sebastian - he had been named that by his previous owner. "Inquisitor" was so impressed on my mind, that I tried to persuade my mother that we had to change his name - Sebastian as a name really creeped me out. In the end, as his fosterer had been calling him Zebby, we called him that. He is nothing like the Sebastian character BTW - he is a sweet, crazy, very bright little cat.

I am curious. Did anyone twig to the fact that Sebastian was Jack when he first came onto the show? When he said that he had come from London in 1888, I thought "They have got to be kidding! The Vorlons are using someone like that?" After that, I never quite trusted the Vorlons.

rjb April 25th 11 21:17

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
My guess is that since the Victorian character in question has become a part of British (especially London) folklore then a fair number of those who live there (in the UK) did indeed guess his identity in advance - especially because of his nastiness, arrogance and self-righteousness.

(But JMS has always said that some plot twists could be guessed in advance, if the guesser happened to have the right `background`. To balance this I readily admit I was astonished at a certain revelation at the end of a certain 2-parter - possibly because I don't have even a smidgeon of a Minbari background.)

hypatia April 26th 11 02:45

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Also, there was no reason to really think about "now, who is going back in time to become Valen?"

Valen didn't have to be part-human. If so, he didn't need to have been one who travelled in time. There was no missing puzzle to solve, who was looking in that direction until very close to the big revelation in that glorious 2-parter. :D

My favorite plot twist, ever, in anything. :bolian:

RW7427 April 27th 11 19:15

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

When he said that he had come from London in 1888, I thought "They have got to be kidding! The Vorlons are using someone like that?" After that, I never quite trusted the Vorlons.
No one ever said the Vorlons "played nice" when they interferred with the affairs of the younger races. It kinda doesn't make any sense for them to grab Jack the Ripper from 1888 London, but they didn't always do things that we would consider right or to our advantage as a race. I guess it was a part of their "mysteriousness" and wanting to further their own agenda regardless of what it meant for the younger races.

Alioth April 28th 11 00:17

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RW7427 (Post 369816)
Quote:

When he said that he had come from London in 1888, I thought "They have got to be kidding! The Vorlons are using someone like that?" After that, I never quite trusted the Vorlons.
No one ever said the Vorlons "played nice" when they interferred with the affairs of the younger races. It kinda doesn't make any sense for them to grab Jack the Ripper from 1888 London, but they didn't always do things that we would consider right or to our advantage as a race. I guess it was a part of their "mysteriousness" and wanting to further their own agenda regardless of what it meant for the younger races.

It's not like they endorsed what Jack the Ripper was doing--they did make him understand somehow the error of his ways. That was the point--if the wrong kind of person tells himself he's taking up some "righteous cause", the results can be the total opposite of anything righteous. They just plucked up one of the most extreme examples of this they could find, I guess.

Deseret May 26th 11 06:43

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stanley (Post 241014)
Quote:

I found the plot incredible that the virtually omniscient, and certainly telepathic, Vorlons should have "doubts" or even need confirmation after all they had done to set up Sinclair, Delenn and Sheridan to maintain the order of the universe as they saw it.

jms said, "...the test was in some ways (most, actually) more for Delenn's benefit than Kosh's...."

That makes sense in alot of ways.... Even though JMS is an atheist, I've noticed that he uses a lot of religion in his stories. Many religions teach that progress is unattainable without sacrifice. A good example was Abraham when told to sacrifice his only son Isaac to be killed on the alter; God knew Abraham's heart but he still needed Abraham to know the same and could not push the man to greater things without first having "proven" him to himself that he was capable of all obedience.
I think JMS did the same between Delenn and Kosh.

One point though, Lyta suggests in "Thirdspace" that not all the Vorlons were telepathic. She made a big point of all the thirdspace aliens being "telepathic, all of them". Also with Talia Winters Kosh had some robot brained telepath make a copy of her mind for "the future" instead of doing it himself. He seemed to have a certain type of telepathy but maybe not fully. So it is possible that Kosh didn't fully know about Delenn and needed some more proof before continuing.

Also in the episode I noticed that the characters did react to Sebastian according to their own knowledge and culture. Sheridan reacted repulsed by the idea of torture because of his naivety in being human. Honestly, he did tend to react to it almost the same way one might expect a Star Trek Federation citizen to respond. Delenn was no stranger to torture and the view point that all progress required that something be given up. She'd done it plenty of times as a member of the Grey Council and was willing to go through it herself since she'd seen the cost of incorrect decisions in the past. Lenier only fretted because it was Delenn and he undoubtedly loved her even at this point and so reacted out pain and concern for her well being, much as Sheriden would react later when she left to fight the Drahk in season 4 (wanting to protect her, nothing more).

lol well there went my two cents, I hope it made sense.

deaded June 3rd 11 09:10

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I know!

I love getting answers to questions I didn't know I had :) :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 369746)
Also, there was no reason to really think about "now, who is going back in time to become Valen?"

Valen didn't have to be part-human. If so, he didn't need to have been one who travelled in time. There was no missing puzzle to solve, who was looking in that direction until very close to the big revelation in that glorious 2-parter. :D

My favorite plot twist, ever, in anything. :bolian:


SkeleTony July 3rd 11 03:12

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
When I first saw this episode(back when it originally aired on TV) I thought it was ingenious. Watching it just days ago I still found it to be very good, but not one of the best. Nothing really wrong with it(acting was very good, script was fine, etc.) but now I cannot escape feeling that this was a leftover Star Trek script from the 1960s show or something. Also I keep thinking why would the Vorlons take Jack the Ripper for this job and ignore Mengele, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, etc.? The only reason I can come up with is the mythological power of Jack the Ripper over more modern psychopaths. Which is not a bad thing necessarily but still...

I give it a B+.

vacantlook July 3rd 11 14:13

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
If I remember correctly, jms had a particular personal investigatory interest in Jack The Ripper, so that's probably why he specifically was used for the story.

Lennier's Tears February 2nd 15 00:16

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Wow, this episode thread is pretty long! Over the years I've gone from REALLY liking this episode, to having some issues with it, to liking it again. When I watched it last night, I liked it a lot.

What I like most about it is the aesthetics. I love the late 19th century suit with the hat and the cane. It works well in this episode. The lighting is great too. Wayne Alexander looks creepy in that harsh light. He does a fantastic job.

Aside from the main storyline, I really like the scene in the elevator with G'Kar and Vir. G'Kar is of course an amazing character, but over the years I've really come to appreciate Vir. He so genuinely cares but is unable to do anything about it. For now.


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