B5TV.COM

B5TV.COM (http://www.b5tv.com/index.php)
-   B5.world (http://www.b5tv.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
-   -   EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8417)

vacantlook August 30th 05 04:36

EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Comes The Inquisitor
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Comes The Inquisitor

fisheggs August 30th 05 06:14

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
On first viewing I was pleased with this ep: it made me wonder about the history between Vorlon and Human. And at the fanaticism of "the cause", and who was "Right".

on further viewings I see the implications of the ep. The "foreshadowing" so to speak.


Part of me absolutely Hated this ep because of its dark tone: I wanted "entertainment". I got thought.

An Absolute A+.

Oatley1 August 30th 05 12:51

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Magnificent! Even though the Jack the Ripper motif has been used in other series, it still works quite well here.

And it also highlights the moral ambiguity that lies at the heart of the Vorlon philosophy.

GKarsEye August 30th 05 15:53

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I dunno... I'm kind of torn on this one. On the one hand, good acting and that classic off-Broadway play style of B5 I love, on the other the whole Sheridan will save the day and how they're gonna sacrifice for each other is kind of expected on shows like these (though at least here they made it plot relevant).

The idea of making him Jack the Ripper never sat well with me. Of all people... ??? And yeah I'm sure Vorlons were in 19th century London, OK. :rolleyes:

Another thread talks about whether Vorlons are/were "good guys" or not, and this is where we first answer that issue: they're out of their fucking minds. If anyone ever asks you to risk your life proving obedience, run. This is the kind of behavior we have words like "fanatcism" and "extremism" for, and shame on Sheridan and Delenn for not questioning what they were doing after that episode.

Sindatur August 30th 05 15:58

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I think this is one of the excellent episodes of the series, but, it's one of the few that is so dark and painful to watch, and makes me consider leaving them out of the arc. So, it's an A, but, I have a difficult time watching it, so I'm giving it a B

KoshN August 30th 05 16:54

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

The idea of making him Jack the Ripper never sat well with me. Of all people... ??? And yeah I'm sure Vorlons were in 19th century London, OK. :rolleyes:

Well, the Vorlons have been to thousands of worlds and are millions of years old. It's not so hard to believe that they were around London in the 19th century. If they'd abducted Sebastian (Jack) in the middle of the night, either before or after he'd killed, they could easily have made themselves appear as whatever they wanted (or even invisible, like Kosh Naranek was to Londo) to the few people who would be on the street at the time. It wouldn't have been nearly as great a strain as it was in The Fall of Night.

RW7427 August 30th 05 17:03

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
To me, this isn't one of the "must see" B5 eps. But it is pretty good, nonetheless. Wayne Alexander does a PERFECT Sebastian.

GKarsEye August 30th 05 17:18

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Well I'm not saying that it's logistically unbelievable, just dramatically.

babylon1122 August 30th 05 17:49

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
This is my first time commenting in this thread so here goes. This ep is one of my most favorite. Because it shows what Delenn is willing to go through to prove herself to Kosh. Sure the knight riding a white horse comes to the rescure is a given but isn't that part of their growing relationship which is relevent to future ep's. I also think that using "Jack the Ripper" as a character made the ep especially with Wayne playing him. All in all it is an A+ episode in my eyes.

aajay August 30th 05 18:09

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
On 1st viewing I did not care for this episode very much. Not sure why, but I also had the same reaction to Intesections in Real Time. Maybe the dark tone...not sure. After further viewing both have grown on me. Can't include them in my favs list, but a solid "B" ep for me.

snockit August 30th 05 19:19

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I personally loved the use of Jack the Ripper in this episode. It really illustrated how ones view of what is "Right" and "the cause" truly is. We all know the monster Jack was, yet he saw himself as a person doing the right thing. And that truly illustrated of how one can be so wrong in their believe of their cause.

It wasn't a gimic to include him, more of a illustration of understanding the whole point of the episode.

S.

Shaal Mayan August 30th 05 21:22

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Excellant this is the episode that got me hooked on b5 to begin with and Mira Furlan's acting is emmy winning.

KoshFan August 30th 05 21:57

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
This was the hook for me as well. Every time I rewatch it, it seems to get more intense.

And every time I get delusions of grandeur, Sebastian's lines about false hope drag me back to earth.

GaribaldisHair August 31st 05 10:33

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I'm with snockit on this one. With the benefit of hindsight, I think the use of the JtR character is perfect, because it beautifully foreshadows what the shadow war is really all about.

Sebastian/Jack killed because, from his point of view, he was doing a good thing ... the right thing.

The Vorlons sought to bring the younger races into order and obedience because, from their point of view, they were doing a good thing ... the right thing.

The Shadows sought to create tension and war between the younger races because, from their point of view, they were doing a good thing ... the right thing.

Jack was a good character for this because history just views him as a monster, which of course was how we viewed the shadows at this point in the story, whereas JMS showed him as far more complex than that and acting on his point of view rather than a monster who simply killed for the sake of killing.

And as far as Sheridan and Delenn were concerned, I think they didn't question the Vorlons' tactics because they still viewed them as the key to everything ... don't forget Sheridan had only just been let in on the shadows presence and what they were up to. As far as they were concerned, without the Vorlons they didn't stand a chance.

All just MHO of course.

sleepy_shadow August 31st 05 17:58

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I personally... perceive this episode as a failure. Acting can be fine, but when the scenario is implausible... it won't help.

It seems utterly implausible that even a person/persons desperate for an ally... would not reject, and indeed take a very long distance from an "ally", should mentioned "ally" demonstrate their spectrum of accepted methods towards a potential supporter (not to speak of neutrals or enemies)... with this kind of striking clarity.

While the rest of the series depicts Delenn and Sheridan as fairly intelligent persons... this episode, in rather steep contrast, paints them as simpletons, unable to connect two dots, or conclude that a corrupt ally is worthless.

Fully aware that characters are *not* supposed to think even slightly like a viewer... this part of story leaves me confused as to how provocations, actions and conflicts have consequences during most other times, but not during this episode.

I watched the episode alright. (There never was an epsisode of Babylon 5 which I'd have skipped of disinterest.) But how the story proceeded before, and proceeds after this episode... seems notably disconnected from the conflicts and fissures depicted during this episode.

It's almost like someone had pressed a "Reset" button immediately after the ending credits.

fisheggs August 31st 05 18:54

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Sorry Sleepy, but gotta disagree on this. As far as Sheridan and (esp) Delenn knew, this was a war against Life itself Remember, the Vorlon were involved with the Mimbari during the "last great war" as allies and so had a history and to Humans they were a mystery, though known to be very powerful and the Shadow were a complete unknown at this point. It was during this episode that Sheridan and Delenn became "closer" which definitely affected the rest of the series IMHO.

RW7427 August 31st 05 19:12

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Yeah, this ep kinda signifies the closeness that Sheridan and Delenn had and kinda "sets the tone" so to speak for their future relationship.

GKarsEye August 31st 05 19:14

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

kinda "sets the tone" so to speak for their future relationship.

Hmm... then I wonder if Sheridan's "woo-hoo" was a reaction to S&M.
I never figured the Minbari to be into that stuff...

fisheggs August 31st 05 19:29

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

Quote:

kinda "sets the tone" so to speak for their future relationship.

Hmm... then I wonder if Sheridan's "woo-hoo" was a reaction to S&M.
I never figured the Minbari to be into that stuff...


Projecting are we? :D

GKarsEye August 31st 05 20:15

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
:)

Nah, not into that stuff, but I'm make an exception for Delenn.

I bet S&M with a Minbari would be the most painful, because they take so damn long to do everything.

Sindatur August 31st 05 20:23

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Well, if they are into it, it's definitely a one on one thing, because she didn't seem to be enjoying it with both Sebastian and Sheridan. Come to think of it, maybe that's proof they aren't since 3 is such a "Holy" number with the Minbari ;)

KoshFan August 31st 05 20:30

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I also suspect that Delenn and Sheridan viewed Sebastian as "the most extreme," i.e. the worst the Vorlons were willing to do. It was a test, they knew it was a test -- and I really doubt they felt Sebastian was spouting the Vorlon party line. In fact I'm not sure they believed anything he said or argued for until the very end when he told them they had passed. It took the form of very, very extreme Socratic questioning. Such a questioner/inquistor does not necessarily believe what he is saying at any point: he's making sure that the person under examination is doing "the right thing."

As for cruelty -- well, the Minbari and Delenn in particular had some experience with "being cruel to be kind." Witness their terrible choice about heeding G'Kar's warnings or not.

Sebastian was probably, to their minds, either a sadistic Socrates or practicing a sort of necessary brutality. As they did not know the true Vorlon agenda, any excesses Sebastian carried out could have easily been explained away. And considering how desperate the Conspiracy of Light was for backup, the excesses would have been glossed over in any way possible.

acheronb5 September 1st 05 23:58

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I really like this episode, Wayne was great.
About Delenn and Sheridan being so fools, I think the problem was that everyone was blinded by Vorlons. Dukhat said to Delenn: (ItB) (more or less) "when you have a doubt, look at the face of a vorlon".
They all were deceived. They were used by the Vorlon and they realized it 2 years later.
So, how Delenn was gonna deny to be questioned if a Vorlon asked for it ?
Sometimes it seems as if she was ready to die for Kosh.

hypatia September 3rd 05 03:34

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Hello there, Acheron. Now that is an excellent point. Millenia of mental and genetic conditioning had made the Vorlons instinctively trusted beyond all logic or reason. Look what Lyta put herself through just to have a slight chance of contacting them.

Stanley September 7th 05 23:25

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Excellent. One of my personal top ten. There was an excellent review at the old Tachyon site. I wish I'd saved a copy of it. Does anyone else have it?

B5obsessive October 18th 05 14:24

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Unspeakably great. :eek: Mira blows me away every time. Witness:

"Am I close, Mr Sebastian?" Strong, defiant.

"This body is only a shell. You cannot touch me. You cannot harm me. I am not afraid." Serene, victorious.

Magnificent. And I don't know why, I know it's coming every time, but that last ".....known only as Jack." makes me go cold to my soles every time. Astounding.

Stanley October 19th 05 19:35

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Mira is awesome.
Quote:

And I don't know why, I know it's coming every time, but that last ".....known only as Jack." makes me go cold to my soles every time. Astounding.

Me too. It's the look on Sebastian's face as he says it. We get a glimpse into his own private Hell.

A brutal interrogation in which the question is not "Where's the bomb?" but "Who are you?" And it's done with such style.

hypatia October 19th 05 19:54

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Can someone refresh my memory? Didn't that actor (Sebastian/Jack) play other parts in the series? I just can't remember who. :o

Like, Lorien?

penniesfromsatan October 19th 05 19:59

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
IIRC, he was Jack, Lorien, the Drakh in s5 (Shiv'k'la or something), the Drazi in Intersections in real time, and various other bits requiring a decent actor behind an alien mask.

hypatia October 19th 05 23:39

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

IIRC, he was Jack, Lorien, the Drakh in s5 (Shiv'k'la or something), the Drazi in Intersections in real time, and various other bits requiring a decent actor behind an alien mask.

Ah, thanks Penny. :)

I knew he played a few parts, and I forgot what the others were. Rewatching the old Star Trek episodes (Next Generation and Deep Space Nine) I see how many actors returned in different roles in the Star Trek universe.

What's interesting about "Sebastian" is that I never recognize his voice. That's usually how I spot the repeat players in Star Trek.

RW7427 October 20th 05 01:42

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Good old Wayne Alexander! He played lots of parts on B5, and IMO, played them all quite well. ;)

hypatia October 20th 05 02:16

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

Good old Wayne Alexander! He played lots of parts on B5, and IMO, played them all quite well. ;)

Especially the ones I didn't notice. :lol:

Seriously, though, that is the curse of the excellent character actor. The better he is, the more he disappears into the part.

QMCO5 October 20th 05 20:13

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I give the episode a B, not for any lack in the acting, but I guess more the tone and premise. JMS with his psychology major loves to rip open the human psyche for emotional and values exploration, especially with the prisoner format. The only humor I saw in the episode was Lennier attempting to explain or defend Kosh's request in front of Sheridan. I doubt very much whether the Vorlons believe any of that impure motive yields impure results stuff.

I found the plot incredible that the virtually omniscient, and certainly telepathic, Vorlons should have "doubts" or even need confirmation after all they had done to set up Sinclair, Delenn and Sheridan to maintain the order of the universe as they saw it. If Kosh had approached Sheridan to be the prisoner he probably would have told Kosh to stick it. Sheridan was quite prepared to go off and take on the Shadows single handed.

QMCO5

Boxie October 21st 05 08:25

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
I loved the episode and gave it an "A"! :D I loved everything about it!

The whole cast was just wonderful! I couldn't agree more with what has been said about the talented Mr. Alexander, he honestly kept me spellbound. I remember holding my breath during the last of his dialogue as the Inquisitor, and then saying aloud with him one word...."Jack". Amazing! :D

deaded October 21st 05 10:25

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

Unspeakably great. :eek: Mira blows me away every time. Witness:

"Am I close, Mr Sebastian?" Strong, defiant.

"This body is only a shell. You cannot touch me. You cannot harm me. I am not afraid." Serene, victorious.

Magnificent. And I don't know why, I know it's coming every time, but that last ".....known only as Jack." makes me go cold to my soles every time. Astounding.

I'll bet you're a big Greg Benford fan too?

Ah... Wayne Alexander! He's da MAN! He's as much a B5 icon as Lyta or Vir. He must have been close to the casting director or JMS or somebody cuz he's all over the place. And he's so good that the only way I knew it was him was the credits. Actually, I never even suspected that he was Sebastian until I read it here. He's one smoooooth dude.

... oh, and I gave this ep a B. I liked it, and I like the continuity and growth of Sheridan and Delen. Also you see their love really bloom here (not that it's a good thing). I'm just so sick of the whole, "Jack the Ripper," thing. I mean, if it had not just been done by STTNG, then ok, but it makes it seem copycatish to me. I mean, I guessed that he was JtR way too soon in the show. A twist would have been nice here and a whole episode dedicated to an extremely predictable end just doesn't cut it in my book. I can't see this standing up to episodes like, "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum," "Falling Toward Apotheosis," "Into the Fire," "Epiphanies," "Z'ha'dum," or, "War Without End." I mean, it's good, it's B5, but it's not, "WOAH!"

hypatia October 21st 05 14:41

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
The Next Generation did a Jack the Ripper episode? That one escapes me. Do you recall what its title/season is?

Sindatur October 21st 05 16:56

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

The Next Generation did a Jack the Ripper episode? That one escapes me. Do you recall what its title/season is?

Ditto.

Stanley October 21st 05 17:36

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

IIRC, he was Jack, Lorien, the Drakh in s5 (Shiv'k'la or something), the Drazi in Intersections in real time, and various other bits requiring a decent actor behind an alien mask.

According to his website, he was G'Dan in "And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place."

Stanley October 21st 05 17:59

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

I found the plot incredible that the virtually omniscient, and certainly telepathic, Vorlons should have "doubts" or even need confirmation after all they had done to set up Sinclair, Delenn and Sheridan to maintain the order of the universe as they saw it.

jms said, "...the test was in some ways (most, actually) more for Delenn's benefit than Kosh's...."

Stanley October 21st 05 19:09

Re: EpDis: Comes The Inquisitor
 
Quote:

From: jmsatb5@aol.com (Jms at B5)
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Who Was Jack The Ripper Really???
To: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 7/25/1998 7:20:00 PM

Who was the one person whose wife actually wrote a letter to the London Times suggesting that the ripper maybe was trying to tell them something, and that maybe he'd stop if they listened? Who was the last person to see at least two of the victims alive on missions of mercy to the jail? Who was reported to have become unhinged by the filth in the area around the murders when he found a rat in his breakfast? Who had medical experience? Who left England suddenly after being questioned, with the murders stopping soon afterward? Whose transcripts of interviews with church officials and British police are *still* kept under lock and key? Who is the sort of person who might say -- as the only witness to hear the ripper reported hearing him remark to one of his victims -- "You would do anything but pray?" Who had the same last name -- and was a likely relative -- of the man living with the very last victim, the only one killed in her room (suggesting she knew the killer)?

The Reverend Samuel Barnett. That's my choice.
jms

Whether or not he's right about this, the idea that Sebastian was a clergyman gone mad makes perfect sense.


All times are GMT. The time now is 00:48.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2008 B5TV.COM