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-   -   EpDis: Divided Loyalties (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8371)

vacantlook August 12th 05 03:13

EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Divided Loyalties
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Divided Loyalties

RW7427 August 12th 05 05:19

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
My favorite part is where Talia calls Lyta a bitch and tries to shoot her. :lol:

GKarsEye August 12th 05 14:33

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Bye bye Talia :(

aajay August 12th 05 16:06

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
all-around solid episode. I liked when all the station staff were paraded in and got "the look".
A.

Shaal Mayan August 12th 05 17:19

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
It's so long Talia but nicely done A from me .

hypatia August 13th 05 14:40

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Yea, I am surprised the episode didn't get more "A" votes. It was a very solid episode from start to finish, and it tied together several important plot points.

fisheggs August 13th 05 19:51

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
I was just a bit dissappointed that the Susan/ Talia relationship wasn't exploresd just a bit more. During first run, I was always expecting to see Talia back since so much time was devoted to the concept of Ironheart's "Gift".

hypatia August 13th 05 21:15

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Me too, actually. But the bitter reality is the actress playing Talia wanted to leave the show.

I think JMS really showed his brilliance for writing a flexible arc, actually. :cool:

Springer August 16th 05 14:12

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
It was a shame to lose Talia, but at least she went out with a bang. Its probably the best Lyta episode actually, too. It would have been interesting to see where they would have taken Talia if she had stayed. Would the Talia/Ivanova relationship have continued?

I remember when I first saw this. The UK got to see the last four episodes of season 2 before anyone else did, which was pretty cool.

vacantlook August 16th 05 15:36

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
I don't know if I would say it's Lyta's best episode in the entire series, but it is nice to see her again.

RW7427 August 17th 05 04:39

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
I think Lyta's had better eps. ;)

hypatia August 17th 05 04:54

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
RW has a very good point there. Lyta did get the better storylines.

Springer August 17th 05 09:44

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Quote:

RW has a very good point there. Lyta did get the better storylines.

She did? When?

I'm trying to think of episodes that featured Lyta. She only really came into her own in season 5, and there she was mired down by all the Byron stuff. Maybe Wheel of Fire was a good Lyta episode. Can't think of many others though.

I think Divided Loyalties was a good Lyta episode partly becaue it was her first apearance since the Gathering, it was one of her better performances and it was before she got into all the Vorlon stuff. It just feels fresher than the other episodes.

Bay13 August 17th 05 15:09

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
I liked her interplay with the new Vorlon Kosh 2.

KoshN August 17th 05 16:26

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Quote:

Quote:

RW has a very good point there. Lyta did get the better storylines.

She did? When?

I'm trying to think of episodes that featured Lyta. She only really came into her own in season 5, and there she was mired down by all the Byron stuff. Maybe Wheel of Fire was a good Lyta episode. Can't think of many others though.

I think Divided Loyalties was a good Lyta episode partly becaue it was her first apearance since the Gathering, it was one of her better performances and it was before she got into all the Vorlon stuff. It just feels fresher than the other episodes.

Off the top of my head:

Passing Through Gethsemane
- Lyta rips the info, out of the Centauri teep.

Walkabout
- Lyta finds out what the Shadows did to Kosh (via hand contact with Sheridan) and blocks her first Battlecrab. Later, "And so it begins," the old Kosh says to Lyta. And Lyta realized that a piece of Kosh Naranek may have survived, somewhere.


...and the episode when Lyta goes to the Drazi homeworld with Franklin. :D

vacantlook August 17th 05 16:35

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
"What do you mean I'm a good liar? I'm a terrible liar!" Squee! I love that scene in "Between The Darkness And The Light". "I don't know who, and I don't know how, but by God I'm going to sue somebody!"

RW7427 August 17th 05 19:01

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Yeah, that IS a great scene. :lol:

Springer August 18th 05 07:56

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Quote:

"What do you mean I'm a good liar? I'm a terrible liar!" Squee! I love that scene in "Between The Darkness And The Light". "I don't know who, and I don't know how, but by God I'm going to sue somebody!"

Presumably I'm the only one who hated that scene then.

Passing through Gethsemane- a great episode, I'd forgotten about that. Not sure how much of its greatness depended on Lyta though. As for Walkabout, good action, but that's about it. Nothing about Lyta's character there really grabs me.

Sindatur August 18th 05 14:08

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Springer, I have always really loved that "liar" scene, but, I was surprised by the praise for it prior to your post, because I do remember people "groaning" about it being over the top when it first aired, so I don't think you're neccessarily alone in your feelings.

GKarsEye August 20th 05 03:49

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
I hate it because it displays what a truly terrible actress Pat Tallman is.

Springer August 22nd 05 11:46

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Actually I put the blame for that scene squarely at the feet at JMS, although I agree it doesn't help that its one of Pat Tallman's lines. Sometimes JMS can do funny stuff, like in Sic Transit Vir, but a lot of the time I presonally found JMS' 'jokes' to be a bit lacking, and in this case, it seemed inappropriate. I know JMS probably just wanted to lighten the mood, but it seemed over the top. However, if we go back to Divided Loyalties, when Garibaldi pretends to react to Lyta's password, and even the bit where Sheridan and Delenn talk about Delenn's "gaps in her vocabulary" they are both subtle and appropriate and not over the top, and help lighten the episode up.

Then again, people always tell me I've got no sense of humour, so what do I know?!

Oatley1 August 22nd 05 12:14

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
I actually like the Liar scene, it makes me smile each time I see it. I also enjoy Pat in B5, though I must admit that my perspective is distorted by the fact that I consider her very attractive, and makes me more sympathetic to her performance!

There were a lot worse examples of JMSs humor in B5 - Ivanova's 'Boom-Shaka-Laka' scene being the one I hate the most.

vacantlook August 22nd 05 13:06

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Quote:

However, if we go back to Divided Loyalties, when Garibaldi pretends to react to Lyta's password,... [is] subtle and appropriate and not over the top, and help lighten the episode up.

Garibaldi's password reaction joke is not subtle.

KoshFan August 24th 05 15:06

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
It's also marvelous foreshadowing.

B5obsessive October 18th 05 12:54

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Like heaps. Sum1 needs to design a smiley that does "the look" :lol: For me lyta is brilliant, and you're all forgetting another great bit: the Londo/Lyta "nightmares" scene. Dangerous girl! But poor Susan! :( Her face when she says goodbye to Talia is agony. How many heartbreaks can one woman take!? The Micheal faking bit was simply funny first viewing, but it's also the best bit of foreshadowing I can think of. "Micheal, if you ever do that to me again...." Fantastic!

Elipsis August 23rd 07 01:30

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
I gave it a C. It felt rushed and not appropriate planned for in the brilliant way that some other plotlines are foreshadowed...

I'm fully aware of the reality of the situation that caused this episode to come to be, but nonetheless I was pretty disappointed with it.



Also: I'm pretty sure after reading the Lurker's guide that Ivanova was hitting that.

Estelyn August 29th 10 22:25

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
I like this episode. The story arc aspects are interesting, and not just those pertaining to Talia. I enjoyed the "butt" dialogue between Delenn and Sheridan at the beginning, and seeing how their relationship forms.

More than his faking the reaction, I liked Garibaldi's action of giving his gun to Sheridan before being tested. Good thinking!

I found it interesting to see both telepaths saying something very similar about the night - Talia's alternate personality coming out at night, and Lyta's allowing herself to recall Kosh only at night. I also thought that Andrea Thompson acted the difference between the two personalities well - her facial expression changed subtly yet distinctly.

Seeing Ivanova so open, softened and vulnerable is a nice change - and it makes me feel for her when she is hurt so badly.

Lennier's Tears February 1st 15 21:32

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
I just watched this episode yesterday. It's definitely one of my favorites. I always look forward to it and dread it at the same time. I'm sad to see Talia go, but it's such a good exit!

That moment when Talia "turns" still gives me chills, even now, almost twenty years after I first saw it. It's an excellent scene (although it does have Talia just coincidentally walking into a room at a convenient time, which is a thing that happens often on B5. See also "Stoner? Mat Stoner?" ) and it's quite creepy!

One of the other great things about this episode is the "Ivanova is a latent telepath" reveal. It's hard to remember now what I was thinking when I first watched this, but as I recall, I did not see that one coming. The character has plenty of reason to dislike the psi corps, so her antipathy never seemed entirely out of place. But then when you find out she is a latent telepath that fits perfectly also. The reveal is great, and it also adds to the Ivanova/Talia relationship, and makes it more tragic. Ivanova must have REALLY trusted Talia to let her get that close.

Garibaldi's fake reaction to the password is entirely in character, but such an inappropriate thing to do! I'm surprised no one punched him for that :p

I'm not crazy about the "butt" dialogue. I could buy that Delenn doesn't know the word "butt", but why would she assume it's a verb? Her English is pretty much perfect. But that is obviously a very minor quibble :p

As for the Talia/Ivanova relationship, was that always going to be part of the story, or did it get added in when Talia got written out of the story, to add to the "Ivanova's failed relationships" background? It sets her up way better for the Marcus story and everything that was to come after that than the old boyfriend thing in the first season (speaking of which, I kinda have to question her judgement if she didn't she that coming. Surely he didn't turn into an alien-hater overnight?). The Talia thing is way more tragic.

Mororless March 23rd 15 16:36

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
I went back and watched this episode after the War Without End discussion as its the other most obvious "switching of plans" and personally I'm still a bit "divided" :rolleyes:.

What we did get was certainly very enjoyable but to me felt slightly rushed and could perhaps have been better covered by two episodes. You could I spose argue JMS might have been less well disposed to Talia with Andrea Thompson leaving for caeer reasons rather than suffering from the mental health issues Micheal O'Hare had and wanted to get her out of the way more. My guess though would be he just ended up not having the space as when you look at it the end of season 2 is pretty much all essential episodes, even Confessions and Lamentation whilst not a big arc episode was IMHO important to have at that point to set the tone for what follows essentially "upping the stakes".

Beyond Talia herself not getting a great deal of focus in what was her sendoff I felt the whole issue of essentially killing someone by causing there personality to be erased wasnt really covered as much as it could have been. Beyond the moral issue of doing it to unsuspecting crew members I felt it could have been mined quite effectively for drama from the lead characters as well. I spose you could argue even for B5 the "if its me what then?" answer would be a bit dark given that the obvious answer from Ivanova especially would be "throw me out the nearest airlock".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears
As for the Talia/Ivanova relationship, was that always going to be part of the story, or did it get added in when Talia got written out of the story, to add to the "Ivanova's failed relationships" background? It sets her up way better for the Marcus story and everything that was to come after that than the old boyfriend thing in the first season (speaking of which, I kinda have to question her judgement if she didn't she that coming. Surely he didn't turn into an alien-hater overnight?). The Talia thing is way more tragic.

Talia being the mole was as I understand it always planned just pushed forward in the story, Not sure whether that means the Ivanova relationship was always planned as well or whether JMS felt it was a good way to use the character.

It is a bit strange looking back now given how much more liberal US TV has become but having openly gay/bisexual characters in a more obvious and prolonged relationship would likely have put JMS under a lot of pressure. Trek bypassed it a little with the Dax episode being essentially a continued hetrosexual relationship and a one off. The big issue with sci fi as well is that you really have to give some comment simply by having to invent how your future society views it at the time.

As I said above I can't help but think even with Thompson leaving at that stage things would have been better spilt up as a two partner. Have the two of them hook up in the first episode and then Lyta turn up(maybe with a bit more drama having to escape pursuit and/or be resuced) and leave the reveal of the mole plot as a cliff hanger to be delt with in the second.

deaded March 24th 15 07:34

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mororless (Post 451346)
Talia being the mole was as I understand it always planned just pushed forward in the story, Not sure whether that means the Ivanova relationship was always planned as well or whether JMS felt it was a good way to use the character.
(snip)
It is a bit strange looking back now given how much more liberal US TV has become but having openly gay/bisexual characters in a more obvious and prolonged relationship would likely have put JMS under a lot of pressure...

So, first I liked your take (even though I quoted only this).

Second, I was wondering why you felt that the Talia character being a mole was planned. I'm not saying you're wrong. I don't know. But to me it seemed extremely abrupt. I like the way it was done but it also really bummed me out because she really was developing and I felt like she died.

Third, I totally agree. Back in '94 anything potentially homosexual was nearly taboo. I applaud JMS and the rest of the crew for including it and even more, making it seem like it's no big thing. No one gave it a second thought. The way I take it is that humanity in the B5 universe has turned it's xenophobic tendencies outward.

Mororless March 24th 15 10:14

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deaded (Post 451347)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mororless (Post 451346)
Talia being the mole was as I understand it always planned just pushed forward in the story, Not sure whether that means the Ivanova relationship was always planned as well or whether JMS felt it was a good way to use the character.
(snip)
It is a bit strange looking back now given how much more liberal US TV has become but having openly gay/bisexual characters in a more obvious and prolonged relationship would likely have put JMS under a lot of pressure...

So, first I liked your take (even though I quoted only this).

Second, I was wondering why you felt that the Talia character being a mole was planned. I'm not saying you're wrong. I don't know. But to me it seemed extremely abrupt. I like the way it was done but it also really bummed me out because she really was developing and I felt like she died.

Third, I totally agree. Back in '94 anything potentially homosexual was nearly taboo. I applaud JMS and the rest of the crew for including it and even more, making it seem like it's no big thing. No one gave it a second thought. The way I take it is that humanity in the B5 universe has turned it's xenophobic tendencies outward.

JMS has if I remember correctly always stated that it was a "trap door" for her but beyond that the fact we got Kosh essentially recording her personality in season 1 to me suggests he intended to use the plot at some stage regardless. The obvious plot to me if AT sticks around seems to be that the recording is used to create her original personality, either right away or sometime latter.

We didn't really get to see a wider reaction to the relationship as Delenn was the only person Ivanova ever told, you'd expect she personally would have no prejudice against it although she never comments on it. Incidently wasn't the original plan for Delenn to have her not just shift to a human hybrid in season 2 but also to shift sex as well? that is starting off as a male character in season 1. That would certainly have been pretty brave, especially if a romance involving her was then going to be a big focus of the show.

The interesting thing with a wider reaction we didn't get to see would be unlike Trek you still have very clear religions in the B5 universe, Ivanova herself is a jew albeit not a highly observant one.

With the morality issue of essentially killing someone by erasing there personality(which is all the more obvious given that this is an future method of execution in B5) I think a better route to take would be to simply limit it to the command staff who were in the know and so could take the risk willingly. As Sheridan points out the knowledge of Lyta's presense isn't known outside the command staff(Talia I assume only picks up on it due to Ivanova's asking about her) so they are the natural people to scan.

I think that situation has potential for great drama as by limiting suspicion you also increase tension among the command staff, not just a small chance it might be you or a friend but a belief it very likely is. A debate whether to do it at all and a decision that it must be done for the greater good then tension rising as each of them is cleared coming down to the last person(I'd assume Ivanova) thinking there likely about to die. Lyta could then test Talia much as she does but without any say so from the others which would perhaps be a good hint at her latter beahvour.

Theres another moral debate as well of what do with the replacement personality as well if it is one of the command staff. Talia going back to the Corps was dangerous but not fatal, one of the those in on Clarks schemes going back means him finding out and very likely everyone involved(Hague as well) at least spending along time in prison and maybe(punishment for treason never revealed was it?) sentenced to death or killed off on the quiet. You could I spose argue that the replacement personally is a "murderer" as its "killed" the original personally so deserves death and as I said I can definitely see Ivanova especially saying something along the lines of "You can test me if you promise me one thing, you'll kill the replacement personality if its me".

Springer March 25th 15 18:43

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mororless (Post 451346)
JMS has if I remember correctly always stated that it was a "trap door" for her but beyond that the fact we got Kosh essentially recording her personality in season 1 to me suggests he intended to use the plot at some stage regardless. The obvious plot to me if AT sticks around seems to be that the recording is used to create her original personality, either right away or sometime latter.

Originally, back in the pilot, the sleeper agent was going to be Takashima, and she would have shot Garibaldi in Chrysalis. I think JMS kept hold of the sleeper agent idea, but I haven't read anywhere that he had specifically moved it to Talia until Divided Loyalties – correct me if I am wrong though.
(Edit – some comments on the Lurker's Guide page do indicate that Takashima's sleeper personality plot was moved to Talia between the pilot and the series, but I don't see anything from JMS outright confirming this. I'm sceptical, otherwise surely Ironheart would have known about it? Talia's character seemed to be heading in a different direction).

Jan made an excellent point in another thread that if Kosh was recording her personality he was going about it in a strange way – recording 'fear', 'terror', 'surprise' – this doesn't seem like he was recording a personality. Maybe he was recording her thoughts related to these to use against her, or someone else, in the future as a weapon. This is implied at the end of Divided Loyalties – Sheridan says that they need to find someway to protect themselves from what Talia could do to them, and then Garibaldi remembers Kosh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mororless (Post 451346)
I think that situation has potential for great drama as by limiting suspicion you also increase tension among the command staff, not just a small chance it might be you or a friend but a belief it very likely is. A debate whether to do it at all and a decision that it must be done for the greater good then tension rising as each of them is cleared coming down to the last person(I'd assume Ivanova) thinking there likely about to die. Lyta could then test Talia much as she does but without any say so from the others which would perhaps be a good hint at her latter beahvour.

I love love love this idea. It fits more with how TV is written these days, than back in the days of B5 when, even though it was telling a story arc, was still episodic in how it went about that. You could imagine that were it being made, this plot line could take up the second half of the season, building up the tension – we know that one of our beloved characters is not who we think they are, but who? Make more of making us think it's Ivanova, build in more red herrings, show the characters all becoming more and more suspicious as they deal with not knowing who to trust, and agonising over whether they or their colleagues are dead people walking, as soon as that telepathic signal is sent, and then the denouement in dramatic fashion.

Mororless March 26th 15 07:51

Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 451360)

Originally, back in the pilot, the sleeper agent was going to be Takashima, and she would have shot Garibaldi in Chrysalis. I think JMS kept hold of the sleeper agent idea, but I haven't read anywhere that he had specifically moved it to Talia until Divided Loyalties – correct me if I am wrong though.
(Edit – some comments on the Lurker's Guide page do indicate that Takashima's sleeper personality plot was moved to Talia between the pilot and the series, but I don't see anything from JMS outright confirming this. I'm sceptical, otherwise surely Ironheart would have known about it? Talia's character seemed to be heading in a different direction).

Jan made an excellent point in another thread that if Kosh was recording her personality he was going about it in a strange way – recording 'fear', 'terror', 'surprise' – this doesn't seem like he was recording a personality. Maybe he was recording her thoughts related to these to use against her, or someone else, in the future as a weapon. This is implied at the end of Divided Loyalties – Sheridan says that they need to find someway to protect themselves from what Talia could do to them, and then Garibaldi remembers Kosh.

I'm going from memories of discussions years ago but I do remember the idea that each character had a "trap door" being raised with this example specifically rather than having the trap door there to be potentially used my multiple characters.

Whilst Kosh's recording wasn't clearly of her personality I think you could take that as JMS not wanting to be too obvious, maybe also because he wanted to give himself some leeway with future alterations as well along the lines of what actually happened. Really though I never saw that as a good fit and wasn't supprized that it was never mentioned again. The threat from sleeper Talia wasn't that she would come back to B5 and need to be chased off, it was from what she knew and would take back to the Corps.

You could also argue that it would not need to be her entire personality as Passing though Gethsemane showed that the similar "mind wipe" wasn't nearly as final as was suggested and maybe recordings of Talia's emotions could have been used in a similar fashion to bring back her original personality.


Quote:

I love love love this idea. It fits more with how TV is written these days, than back in the days of B5 when, even though it was telling a story arc, was still episodic in how it went about that. You could imagine that were it being made, this plot line could take up the second half of the season, building up the tension – we know that one of our beloved characters is not who we think they are, but who? Make more of making us think it's Ivanova, build in more red herrings, show the characters all becoming more and more suspicious as they deal with not knowing who to trust, and agonising over whether they or their colleagues are dead people walking, as soon as that telepathic signal is sent, and then the denouement in dramatic fashion..
I would agree there B5 didn't leave specific points of drama hanging across multiple episodes to the degree a lot of modern TV does, indeed I think that difference could make a potentially rebooted series more interesting

My point was more that I think that this episode could have been spilt into two parts each of which would still have been quite self contained. The first part could have had the Ivanova/Talia hook up and a more extended plot around Lyta's return with a cliffhanger about the sleeper/mole at the end that could have been delt with in a the second episode.

Lyta's return was rather brief being delt with via a hefty chunk of exposition that could have been broken up over the episode plus obviously the potential for a good deal of action. Have some of the main cast travel to Mars of elsewhere looking for her(maybe even have her down below on B5 itself) after being told by someone in the know that she had vital info and tangle with the Corps and Clarks associates then obviously have her react negatively to them in a surprising manner at the end thinking they maybe the sleeper.

Likewise I think if JMS had been allowed to make it more obvious the Ivanova/Talia relationship could definitely have benefited from more time. Theres a tendency these days to view gay storylines in this kind of context as mere fan service/titillation but I think here JMS actually had an interesting matchup for potential for good drama and some chemisty. The characters obviously have a connection though the Corp who Talia would be further rejecting and both were obviously emotionally quite guarded with as you say the whole thing being partly a setup for what happens latter with Ivanova/Marcus.

If you have the whole of the second episode to deal with the sleeper I think that would provide a lot more room for raising the drama/tension the way I suggested. If you flesh out the Ivanova/Talia relationship as well then that gets even more of a punch, as it was I felt the sleeper Talia gloating to Ivanova was already very effective.

Again my guess is that JMS's problem was that AT leaving cropped up partway though Season two and left him having to deal with it rather more quickly than would have been ideal. The tail end of the second season really is packed with great episodes(still probably my favourite run of the series) and I think emotionally provides a lot of the backbone for the show as a whole, not sure you can lose any of them. The chinks of light you start to see from the end of the Long Twilight Struggle into the next two episodes and especially Sebastian's message really depend a lot on things falling to bits and the self sacrifice within in the episodes prior.

Delenn knows what she's letting herself in for when she follows the Markab into isolation in Confessions and Lamentations and Ivanova knows what she's likely in for trying to say goodbye to Talia searching for any sign of the previous personality. No smart comeback or threat given in response just taking the emotional punch to the gut because its the right thing to do. In these kinds of programs the threat of death is so ever present that I think that kind of emotional sacrifice if anything often makes more of an impact.


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