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-   -   EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8336)

vacantlook July 31st 05 21:53

EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Confessions And Lamentations
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Confessions And Lamentations

RW7427 July 31st 05 22:36

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
I get the chills every time they go to the place where the Markabs were and find that Delenn and Lennier are the only ones alive.

B5_Obsessed July 31st 05 23:24

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
The music in this one is very good, especially in the sequence with Delenn and Sheridan holding hands.

vacantlook August 1st 05 01:36

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
I agree: the music is very nice in this episode. I love the scene of Delenn telling Sheridan that if she dies she'll see him again in the place where no shadows fall. I also like the ending in that the Markab are all wiped out; it's not the traditional save the day right in the nick of time that is usual in tv/movie storytelling.

Ninja_Squirrel August 1st 05 04:45

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Despite the depressing tone of it, this is one of my favorites. In fact, it's in my Top 10 of the entire series. I don't think there's been anything like it in any other sci-fi show, especially the Treks. Amazing; tragic, but extraordinary storytelling.

KoshFan August 1st 05 05:58

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
I just gave it a B, thinking high-end B, but as people remind me more about it I realize that this is A-quality. Strike one "B" vote and bump it up a notch.

Elric August 1st 05 10:22

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
I gave this one a B - it is a verg good ep. Not quite an A since I'm reserving my A votes for the really special episodes.

As others have already said, it's not your conventional Hollywood ending type of story and the scene near the end was very moving indeed. My only (small) gripe is that the Markab were only a "backround" race in previous episodes - would have been nice if we had seen more of them previously (watching the previous eps again you do notice them more, but on first viewing they are just some other aliens).

GKarsEye August 1st 05 12:49

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Quote:

As others have already said, it's not your conventional Hollywood ending type of story and the scene near the end was very moving indeed. My only (small) gripe is that the Markab were only a "backround" race in previous episodes - would have been nice if we had seen more of them previously (watching the previous eps again you do notice them more, but on first viewing they are just some other aliens).

I agree, hence my B, despite it being well done.

Originally it was supposed to be the Drazi that were wiped out, but they decided that the Drazi makeup is too heavy to convey the emotional weight of the episodes. I personally think the Markab makeup is little better in that regard anyway.

RW7427 August 1st 05 15:11

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Quote:

Originally it was supposed to be the Drazi that were wiped out

Purple Markab and Green Markab just don't have the same ring. :lol:

Shaal Mayan August 1st 05 18:04

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
An excellant episode the best of the off arc episodes a top 10 in my book .

StarForBram August 2nd 05 12:29

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Sorry to disagree, but this is one of my least favorite episodes. I gave it a C, because only one episode ("Believers") of B5 ever deserved less.

Springer August 2nd 05 15:15

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
I like this episode, I give it a B. Watching Franklin struggle to save the Markab is compelling, and you feel the danger that Delenn Lennier are putting themselves in. The only problem is that you don't get a feel of how big a disaster this is. An entire sentient species has been wiped out completely, but I don't think we get the scale of the disaster, with the exception of the brief news report at the end on ISN.

JMS said at the time that it wasn't an AIDS allegory, but based it on what happened with rhe Black Death. But with the way AIDS is wreaking havoc across Africa, and the way people there are seem to be ignorant of it, maybe its becoming more and more of an AIDS allegory. I don't know, just a thought.

hypatia August 2nd 05 16:07

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
I was just curious as to why some might really hate this episode. Just what was it about the ep. that so annoyed you, StarForBram?

StarForBram August 2nd 05 17:38

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Quote:

I was just curious as to why some might really hate this episode. Just what was it about the ep. that so annoyed you, StarForBram?

I guess I just didn't like the subject material. The blind religious faith of the Markab annoyed me. I guess this is why I hated "Believers" too. I have a low tolerance for people who blindly let religion dictate their choices in life.

hypatia August 2nd 05 17:44

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
That I can certainly appreciate. :)

Thanks, StarForBram. That does make sense. It's a bit interesting that the point of the episode was exactly what you hated about it, but I can certainly understand. You just didn't particularly want to see all of this played out. It's tiring.

I can certainly understand that perspective.

crazybillyo August 2nd 05 23:17

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Quote:

I have a low tolerance for people who blindly let religion dictate their choices in life.

This begs an interesting question: What constitutes such "blind" faith? What would be reasonable and unreasonable in such circumstances with respect to faith?

vacantlook August 2nd 05 23:58

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
I'd say the blind part of the faith kicked in when the Markab decided to ignore the medical study of the disease that said it would spread faster if they were in much tighter contact with each other and up and all move into one big room with each believing that being isolated from everyone else would show God that they were all holy and thus they'd be spared the disease.

Whenever one ignores other points of reality for sake of wanting something to be a certain way, wrapped up in a pious wrapper, would usually constitute blind faith, I'd say.

hypatia August 3rd 05 04:37

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Maybe all the Markab were just impure and deserved to die.

No, I'd say I have to agree with VL there. I'd also add that while underfunding research into this disease and even going so far as to basically ignore its existence they doomed themselves as a race.

It just played out more quickly in the B5 episode than it did during the Black Death.

A_M_Swallow August 3rd 05 13:03

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Sloth is a sin - not looking for the cause and cure.
Arrogance is a second sin - declaring ones self pure.

Put the two together and you have a big problem.

deaded August 21st 05 05:10

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
So you are saying they deserve to die Mr. Swallow?

I gave the ep a B. It was good but I just don't believe it. The WHOLE ENTIRE race, every single person, ignores this fatal disease and lives with their superstition that eventually kills them? I mean, come on. They were smart enough to develop advanced medicine and join the other spacefaring races. I can't believe that billions of people, EVERY ONE, could be so short sighted. It makes no sense at all and makes the whole race look like a bunch of idiots. I absolutely can't believe it's true. I liked the ep but it's just too over to top to buy so I can't give it an A.

Quote:

The blind religious faith of the Markab annoyed me. I guess this is why I hated "Believers" too. I have a low tolerance for people who blindly let religion dictate their choices in life.

I feel the same way, and never liked Believers. It was a good ep too, and can totally happen (in fact it does), but it bothers me a lot.

Enlightened_GKar August 21st 05 08:13

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Powerful stuff. The shot of the near-dead Markab reaching for Garibaldi's aide is extremely poignant. Good writing by having the characters adapt to a situation that is out of their control as well as understanding.

Though it may seem implausible to us Humans, it is quite possible that an intelligent, spacefaring race is so capable of religious fanaticism. Though, this was not meant to be the focus of the show. Sure, the viewer could get caught up on the innerworkings of the Markab soul, but the beauty of this episode was meant to display our characters fighting against an atypical opponent -- a pestilence.

(Not that you are wrong for questioning the Markab's devout fanaticism, I just think that the viewer was left with a complete lack of details regarding the inside practices of the Markab. Ease your rancor for the Markab's blind religiousness by thinking that some agnostic/atheistic Markab ignored the religious ideas centered around the plague, whatever. We just do not know enough about: the blackplot, the culture, and the species to determine what the Markab would and would not do.)

Anyway, this episode does what possibly no other TV show has done in history -- kill the kid. Tribute should be given to JMS for this heartless stroke, because it makes the pay-off that much better. The total biological genocide occurs, and it is truly shocking.

This could easily be an A.

deaded August 21st 05 11:14

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
No, you're TOTALLY right. That was the coolest thing about this ep. They actually killed the kid. WOW! Freakin.. DDUDE! JMS, you are one SLY mofo!

But still, with all the questioning and angst that occurs in adolescence, how the fuok could not *ONE* single Markab question the historic or biologic validity of a moraly directed lethal virus?

vacantlook August 21st 05 11:47

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
How do we know that there weren't Markab that questioned the moral reason given by the majority for the virus? They could have been such that when they did actually question that the fanatasism was so strong in those in control of things in the government that those who questioned ended up with ruined careers, so few actually were able to do any big studying about it.

And as Enlightened_GKar spoke on, the Markab are aliens, which includes alien sociology and psychology, which could partially explain why they wouldn't behave in the exact same way an equally large group of humans would behave.

hypatia August 21st 05 16:57

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Quote:

But still, with all the questioning and angst that occurs in adolescence, how the fuok could not *ONE* single Markab question the historic or biologic validity of a moraly directed lethal virus?

VL just covered that pretty well. Who ever said not one single Markab questioned this? The Markab doctor obviously did. He just had a SYSTEM HE COULDN'T WIN against fighting him.

Ever see the move "And the Band Played On"? The men and women trying to understand and fight the AIDS virus were seriously held back because they were in a minority and had little pull with the men who dole out the money for such things.

RW7427 August 21st 05 20:28

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
I think this ep is one of the saddest and most tragic of the series. A disease hits an alien race, and it wipes out the whole race because they refused to believe that it could kill them. They were too busy being pious, and that lead to their extinction. It's sad because innocent lives, like the life of that little girl that Delenn comforted, were lost simply because they thought they were too good for it to kill them.

A_M_Swallow August 22nd 05 00:01

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Quote:

So you are saying they deserve to die Mr. Swallow?


Deserve - No.

Unfortunately some actions have their own builtin punishment.

deaded August 22nd 05 09:38

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Quote:

And as Enlightened_GKar spoke on, the Markab are aliens, which includes alien sociology and psychology, which could partially explain why they wouldn't behave in the exact same way an equally large group of humans would behave

Very good points. However it's obvious that none of you have ever seen Star Trek. If you had you'd realize that all alien psychology is extrapolatable to human thought processes.

Quote:

Ever see the move "And the Band Played On"? The men and women trying to understand and fight the AIDS virus were seriously held back because they were in a minority and had little pull with the men who dole out the money for such things.


Yes. Yes I did. Excellent HBO flick with Alan Alda. In fact I lived through that period while I was going through college and medical school. There was resistance but it only took them 3 or 4 years to break through. Eventually the AIDS epidemic was appreciated for what it was/is. NOT a homosexual curse but a seriously fucked-up communicable dz. Sure people still hang on to their prejudices but the pervasive societal blinders only lasted a few years. With the Markab we're talking tens of generations.

macmaccaman September 7th 05 23:16

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
I went for an A, its undoutably the best "standalone" episode of the series (Dawn was close for me). Though in saying that, it was subtly a big arc episode - with the Franklin Stims thing, the love story and Sheridan's realisation of Keffer's search.

There was hardly a B-story, the John/Delenn thing was the closest! The music was brilliant, and I liked some of the direction - looking back you get little moments in it, like when Franklin takes the stim and then the magnitude of that moment is conveyed by the camera doing that pull back thing. Didn't think much of it then, but in the context of what happened next I thought it was a nice touch.

I like this one a lot! (I just finished rewatching it!)

Lousy_Dodgers August 17th 06 19:49

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
It is a rather powerful episode and it remains one of my favorites for the reason that it is not a standard TV or Trek ending. We have all seen these types of episodes before and we expect to see Franklin save everyone in the nick of time but that is not what happens here. In that sense, the episode is a much better reflection of reality than other portrayals. I will grant you that it is unlikely that humanity would allow religion to prevent it from studying a disease. Even if governments did not fun research, private individuals or companies could pursue cures on their own.

However, the episode is more reflective of the world we live in by reminding us that life does not always end well. We continue to draw closer to creating cures for AIDs but millions have already died. For those victims, there was no last-minute cure or easy solution.

PillowRock August 17th 06 21:20

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Quote:

I will grant you that it is unlikely that humanity would allow religion to prevent it from studying a disease.

Really?

I wouldn't take that for granted.

KoshFan August 17th 06 22:01

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
In Africa, education about AIDS is certainly running into trouble; and AIDS research began painfully slowly, because the original populations affected by the disease were homosexual men and Haitian immigrants. The religious overtones of the arguments against research were not pronounced, as far as I know, but definitely there.

Also, considering that JMS based this ep. loosely on the AIDS epidemic, he didn't invent it from wholecloth.

Lousy_Dodgers August 17th 06 22:42

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Quote:

Quote:

I will grant you that it is unlikely that humanity would allow religion to prevent it from studying a disease.

Really?

I wouldn't take that for granted.

Well, I make the argument in the sense that Earth is so divided in terms of religious viewpoints. Just as a current example, take the current debate over embryonic stem cells. You have a group of social conservatives who oppose their use in any way, shape, or form. However, they cannot prevent private capital from funding the research. In addition, other government entites--such as the EU--have decided to fund the research.

Will religion, political ideology, and other human ideas continue to hinder scientific discoveries? Yes. Will this interference lead to the deaths of more humans who could have been saved if cures had been researched more vigorously? Yes. However, I do not think that the resistance would be enough to kill all inquiry into a given disease or subject to the point where one disease could wipe out the human race.

Sindatur August 17th 06 22:53

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
But, you're looking at it from a 20th century Earthling perspective.

Most B5 races have a single world (Or empire) Government, and a single religion. So, it's really not a question of what you believe, but, merely a question of if you believe or not. so, if the "State sanctioned" religion goes against something, it's not likely to happen unless very far underground.

I the Early days of AIDs, nothing was done really. So, to me it makes sense when looked at through those eyes.

Lousy_Dodgers August 17th 06 23:10

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Quote:

Most B5 races have a single world (Or empire) Government, and a single religion. So, it's really not a question of what you believe, but, merely a question of if you believe or not. so, if the "State sanctioned" religion goes against something, it's not likely to happen unless very far underground.

Very true and Earth's diversity was identified as one of its strengths several times throughout the show. If Earth had a single religion and a single-centralized government that would not permit research outside of approved limits, then humanity could well face the fate shown in this episode.

Quote:

I the Early days of AIDs, nothing was done really. So, to me it makes sense when looked at through those eyes.

I see your point and I agree that the hesitation to fully research AIDs cost the lives of millions of people needlessly. Given humanity's tendency to fear and distrust that which it does not understand, I could well see something similar to the early years of AIDs happen again, leading to the deaths of millions more. That still remains separate from a plague that would kill all of humanity.

I do not think we are in disagreement over the folly of allowing prejudice and fear to absolve us of the responsibility to care for those who are suffering. Whether a thousand, ten thousand, or a billion die of a new disease is not the issue. Instead, the episode raises questions about how we as a society respond to those who require aid. Do we put aside our fears or do we ignore their pleas because we view the ill as somehow inferior or tainted?

hypatia August 18th 06 01:21

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
We already have known diseases that would, effectively, wipe out all human life on Earth.

Like Ebola, they tend to be too effective, and kill off their hosts too quickly to spread that far.

But come one, we already know of this baby. Imagine HIV airborn? With a gestation period that can be in the years? We wouldn't have a chance.

Truth_Seeker May 11th 08 19:00

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
I gave this episode an A.Probably one of the best stand alones in the series.The tragedy of a whole race which is about to become extinct and the desperation of Franklin are very touching.The bravery and compassion of Delenn and Lennier made me ask myself:"Would any of the humans do what they did?"

Lousy_Dodgers May 11th 08 20:28

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
I agree that this is a great stand alone episode though arc-wise, it does an excellent job of showing the growing relationship between Delenn and Sheridan.

I also thought Delenn had some excellent lines in this particular episode.

hypatia May 12th 08 00:16

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Truth_Seeker (Post 320811)
I gave this episode an A.Probably one of the best stand alones in the series.The tragedy of a whole race which is about to become extinct and the desperation of Franklin are very touching.The bravery and compassion of Delenn and Lennier made me ask myself:"Would any of the humans do what they did?"

Well, humans have done that for humans, quite frequently actually. We forget that there have long been people (doctors, nurses, nuns) who have risked death in order to provide aid and comfort to those ailing. Some have, indeed, died from exposure to the disease.

Would an human do that for a virtually unknown alien race? Well, that I can't say by looking at history. Franklin would have, in a shot, if he hadn't been busy trying to find a cure. I think Brother Theo would have, as well. So my instincts tell me "yes, but precious few".

Truth_Seeker May 12th 08 00:28

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 320846)
Would an human do that for a virtually unknown alien race? Well, that I can't say by looking at history. Franklin would have, in a shot, if he hadn't been busy trying to find a cure. I think Brother Theo would have, as well. So my instincts tell me "yes, but precious few".

Yes Hypatia Franklin would have done it because he really believes that every form of life is sacred.

Marcus would probably have done it because he's the kind of guy who lives to help others.

The other one I can think of is the man who thought he was King Arthur in "A Late Delivery From Avalon" because he would do everything to defend the weak.The sad thing is that he was technically insane so he does not represent the average human.;)

hypatia May 12th 08 02:15

Re: EpDis: Confessions And Lamentations
 
Well, how do we know that Delenn represents the "average" Minbari?

In fact, from what we see of the Minbari, many if not most would not have done what she did. Lennier, it can be argued, did it simply because at that time in the arc he always followed Delenn's lead, no matter where that might lead.


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