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-   -   EpDis: GROPOS (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8089)

Estelyn June 6th 10 08:28

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
One question I have first: Is "ground pounders" an existing term in military usage today, or did JMS make that up?

I thought that there was a good deal of interesting interpersonal action in this episode. The troubled relationship between Franklin Sr. and Jr. was excellently portrayed. Even after they'd talked, at least some, there was still the "Yessir!" reaction, even in a private conversation. What a contrast in their feelings about other races - Sr. is quite frankly very prejudiced, even to the point of xenophobism.

I also liked the dialogue between Ivanova and Dr. Franklin - they rarely interact privately, and this situation gave them an opportunity. I do like the fact that Ivanova is portrayed as relating neutrally to her fellow officers, without any romantic overtones. That makes her believable as a female military officer.

Much has already been posted on the Garibaldi/Dodger relationship, so I won't add to it. I did find her words on her motivation in seeking something to remind her that she's alive thought-provoking.

The death of the three protagonists (yes, and even of the "bad guy" who attacks Delenn) at the end is a very sad moment, both in the reactions of the people on B5 and in actually seeing them lying there. Yes, that does make B5 distinctive - people die. It may be a victory, and many rejoice, but the viewer is not a part of that at the end.

KoshFan June 6th 10 16:18

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn (Post 362150)
One question I have first: Is "ground pounders" an existing term in military usage today, or did JMS make that up?

It's a common enough term, but not, I think, in the military.

Jan June 6th 10 16:42

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 362160)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn (Post 362150)
One question I have first: Is "ground pounders" an existing term in military usage today, or did JMS make that up?

It's a common enough term, but not, I think, in the military.

Larry DiTillio, not JMS.

Larry DiTillio wrote in his introduction the the episode in the Other Voices 3 script book that GROPOS is "a futuristic deconstructin of ground poiunders, John Copeland's favorite term for infantry soldiers."

The part of Franklin's father being military was taken from real life as Rick Biggs' father was a Colonel in the Vietnam War. The 'terrible waiting' was something Rick had experienced himself.

Jan

Wicket January 20th 11 21:47

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
This is one of my favorite episodes. I especially like the ending. Another big plus is Ken Foree.

Some funny thing: I worked in a Hostel. The US Army sent 100 guys one day and another 100 the following day. These guys were sent to Iraq the following week. I did the night shift on the second night. These guys were exactly like the Earth Fore Marines. They even had a big fight.

Alioth March 23rd 11 03:03

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GKarsEye (Post 217581)
They can, it's just annoying.

I was of course exaggerating when I said my "respect" for Garibaldi went down. After Sheridan, he's my favorite human character on the show. He just had moment of idiocy. Happens, no big deal.

Yeah, this is something that, if a guy's male friends found out about it, he'd never hear the end of the razzing. "No man card for you!" But hey, if you're uncomfortable doing the deed, don't.

Having been a ground pounder himself though, you'd think he'd know that all she was looking for was a fun romp in the hay while on liberty in port--just like any soldier or sailor who gets a break from duty in a strange town or port. Guys and gals in uniform, those unattached anyway, probably both sought this commonly in those breaks from the demanding and sometimes terrible days they face for the most part. You'd think early on that he'd know or suspect that's what she was after, and nipped it in the bud if he didn't want to oblige--none of the heavy kissing, or even bringing her to his quarters.

I also wondered about fraternization issues. In present times, in the US military anyway, it is forbidden for an officer (and I think that includes CWOs as they have commissions) and enlisted to have sexual relations, and I think that's even if they aren't in the same command. Officers theoretically have enough pull to influence (through relations with other officers) things for even enlisted personnel under other commands, so the whole thing is frowned upon, with violators subject to the UCMJ and possibly court-martial. Apparently this wasn't as much of an issue with Earthforce.

Quote:

Cute, ass-kicking fiesty red-head. Amongst the top three hottest chick characters to guest star on B5 (along with Number One and Franklin's singer).
Oh hell yes. I'd have forgotten all the other bullshit and had my fun too, if I were him. It was kind of painful to watch his hesitation and agonizing....

Quote:

Here's something that I don't like about the episode: the battle had no significance to the overall story. I must have seen the entire series half a dozen times and I don't even remember what they were fighting about.
They were aiding an alien government against rebels on its planet in a civil war, to gain military concessions from that government in their sector.

It kind of gave us a look at what Earth was doing foreign-policy wise--courting powers to gain advantages from them and expand their interests. We don't know the circumstances of their civil war, but we might suspect that we weren't aiding "the good guys" therein--they could have had the same kinds of grievances that the rebels from Earth's colonies had, and their government might have been just as brutal or corrupt. Anyway, we know Earth isn't slinking back to isolationism (as much of the emerging party line is implying), but still poking its nose militarily where it sees advantage.

Demonn March 23rd 11 09:35

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I always respected Garabaldi for that decision... he did the right thing. Sex isn't just sex for most/some people.

hypatia March 24th 11 01:30

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
You may be talking to the wrong crowd here, Demon. ;)

But yes, B5 was always a bit more realistic than many sci-fi shows. This is no exception. I admired JMS quite a bit for making that decision about the character. But Garibaldi, for all his bluster, was rather fragile at that point in his life. And he was trying to make more responsible decisions.

Demonn March 24th 11 11:52

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 368703)
You may be talking to the wrong crowd here, Demon. ;)

Meh... it happens.

Your side...
My side...
Your side...
My side...
Your side...
My side...


Couldn't resist a Farscape moment. :p

Alioth March 25th 11 03:15

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Yeah, awkward social misstep on the part of Garibaldi toward his "date", but those happen. My trouble isn't his saying "no", but not understanding what she wanted (just a one-night stand) enough to either decide to go for it or steer her away while the night was still young. But again, we all make those kinds of misreads and mistakes, sometimes--God knows I have, lots of times.

I think a lot of guys have trouble with the idea that a gal can be just as much of a horndog as the best of them. They think women are more fragile and easily hurt by casual sex--some, lots, of them can be, but not all. She seemed put off that Garibaldi seemed to think she was. She certainly ain't no frail damsel who gets the vapors, and she makes sure every guy she comes around knows that too.

rjb March 25th 11 12:49

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Be very interesting to know if your comment is written from a male or a female perspective.

hypatia March 25th 11 13:52

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Definitely from the female perspective. :) And we are in the extreme minority around here.

GKarsEye March 25th 11 15:51

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Well FWIW, one of my big life lessons has been to dispel the myth I was brought up with that women are delicate, emotionally and even physically frail or weak or needy. I know it's obvious to say that people are individuals but I kinda had to figure that out a little bit for myself.

Alioth March 26th 11 01:35

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rjb (Post 368757)
Be very interesting to know if your comment is written from a male or a female perspective.

Male, who has known a few females like Dodger. Plus knowing that a lot of the feminist movement of the last several decades was an assertion that females were just as much sexual beings as males, and sometimes seek sex, like males sometimes, just for the sake of it. Before that time, this was largely denied, and females were placed on an almost-impossible pedestal of "womanly virtue" (and punished horribly by society when they wouldn't stand on that pedestal).

I don't want to get into any more trouble than I might already be here, just saying that it is still somewhat common to think of females as the more passive of the species sexually, when clearly at least some are not.

Edit: and the post immediately above, what he said. :)

vacantlook March 26th 11 02:57

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
As much as there are plenty of women who want sex for the sake of sex proving women aren't uniformly the stereotype of a virtuous maiden, there are conversely men that aren't always sex for the sake of sex. As such, I don't find it unrealistic that Garibaldi would make the choice he did in the episode. And just because he made such a choice in this instance does not mean he wouldn't choose differently at different points in his life.

fisheggs March 26th 11 06:01

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 368761)
Definitely from the female perspective. :)

:devil::angel: OOPS.:lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alioth (Post 368776)
Quote:

Originally Posted by rjb (Post 368757)
Be very interesting to know if your comment is written from a male or a female perspective.

Male, who has known a few females like Dodger. Plus knowing that a lot of the feminist movement of the last several decades was an assertion that females were just as much sexual beings as males, and sometimes seek sex, like males sometimes, just for the sake of it. Before that time, this was largely denied, and females were placed on an almost-impossible pedestal of "womanly virtue" (and punished horribly by society when they wouldn't stand on that pedestal).

I don't want to get into any more trouble than I might already be here, just saying that it is still somewhat common to think of females as the more passive of the species sexually, when clearly at least some are not.

Edit: and the post immediately above, what he said. :)


Welcome aboard and don't worry, you're not in trouble. Amazing how we can still disect a relatively small plotline from 2 episodes 3 years apart, and find new insights.:thumbsup: B5 RULES!!!!:devil: If women were "passive" there would be no lesbians: as several neighbors and lots of friends of mine can attest: That aint the case.:devil: Substitute "passion" for "sex": how does that change the equation? Not only are men and women different, so are different men and women.:cool: As the oldest son of a widow with 6 kids (Dad died when I was 16) I became a practical feminist at a young age.




Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 368782)
As much as there are plenty of women who want sex for the sake of sex proving women aren't uniformly the stereotype of a virtuous maiden, there are conversely men that aren't always sex for the sake of sex. As such, I don't find it unrealistic that Garibaldi would make the choice he did in the episode. And just because he made such a choice in this instance does not mean he wouldn't choose differently at different points in his life.



Garibaldi was an Italian Catholic dedicated to food and family.:thumbsup: His arc starts and ends with Lise, wife. He was infatuated with Talia (real life married, and divorced) but she turned out to be ... different. :devil: I cant recall any intimate relations Garibaldi had, or even implied. Lise divorced him: He never divorced her. She got a fortune.:devil: In the end it all worked out. End of morality play.:cool:

Jade Jaguar April 6th 11 04:16

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alioth (Post 368753)
Yeah, awkward social misstep on the part of Garibaldi toward his "date", but those happen. My trouble isn't his saying "no", but not understanding what she wanted (just a one-night stand) enough to either decide to go for it or steer her away while the night was still young. But again, we all make those kinds of misreads and mistakes, sometimes--God knows I have, lots of times.

I think a lot of guys have trouble with the idea that a gal can be just as much of a horndog as the best of them. They think women are more fragile and easily hurt by casual sex--some, lots, of them can be, but not all. She seemed put off that Garibaldi seemed to think she was. She certainly ain't no frail damsel who gets the vapors, and she makes sure every guy she comes around knows that too.

While I agree with you, I had a different take on this encounter. In WWII films, it was fairly common to hint that the guy going off to war got a one night stand from a girl, or even a quick marriage, like it was her duty. Of course, this was conveyed subtly in those days. Here we have a role reversal, with Dodger being a woman soldier, going of to quite possibly die, and wanting a fling before she goes. But Garibaldi is too self absorbed to realize it.


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