B5TV.COM

B5TV.COM (http://www.b5tv.com/index.php)
-   B5.world (http://www.b5tv.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
-   -   EpDis: GROPOS (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8089)

A_M_Swallow October 15th 05 02:15

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
GROPOS was written by Lawrence G. DiTillio

Quote:

But, being an Army veteran there were some glaring glitches. When Sheridan, Garibaldi and Ivanova report to the initial briefing and General Franklin orders “at ease” Sheridan and Ivanova assume the proper position, but Garibaldi puts his hands in his pockets, a definite no-no. (If a Soldier stands around with his hands in his pockets, he might suffer a rude joke.)

Garibaldi did not get to be an NCO by not knowing how to stand at attention in the presence of an officer. There is another way of reading Garibaldi keeping his hands in his pockets. He is saying, "I may wear a uniform but I am a civilian. Military officers cannot give me orders."

Garibaldi is head of Babylon 5 Security rather than its military police. Sheridan can give Garibaldi orders because he is Governor of Babylon 5. Civilians can choose to obey instructions given by a general.

KoshFan October 15th 05 14:23

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I thought Garibaldi was still EarthForce, though.

Either way, JMS or DiTillio was no military man. They were more likely to get literary quotations right than military protocol.

Springer October 15th 05 15:03

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Yeah, Garibaldi is in Earthforce- check out his insignia on his uniform. Zack isn't in Earthforce (well, he is by the time of Sleeping in Light, but not during most of the series). The other security officers don't have an Earthforce insignia, but the B5 security insignia.

But the tactics in the battle don't make much sense if the object was to obliterate the enemy. If that was the case, just nuke the fortress from orbit. But were there other objectives, perhaps hostages that had to be rescued that required a direct assault?

hypatia October 15th 05 15:38

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I don't get how everyone figured nuking is such an easy option. What if they need to inhabit the place in a few days? Even a neutron bomb spreads radiation for a time, doesn't it? :confused:

Springer October 15th 05 19:15

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

I don't get how everyone figured nuking is such an easy option. What if they need to inhabit the place in a few days? Even a neutron bomb spreads radiation for a time, doesn't it? :confused:

Yeah, agreed, point taken. I think I used the term "nuke" flippantly. What I meant was bomb the fotress from orbit, using whatever weaponry was appropriate.

I remember reading in New Scientist that the US military were trying to make a "gamma-ray bomb". I forget the details, but it wouldn't destroy the infrastructure like a nuclear weapon would, but it would kill anyone living in the vicinity, and wouldn't leave any radiation behind. Maybe a weapon like that could have been an option.

It also depends what is outlawed. Mass drivers were outlawed. Of course, they could wreak real destruction. But maybe other forms of bombardment from orbit were outlawed too. Remember in The Fall of Centauri Prime, the Narn and Drazi forces just use their beam weapons on the planet, not missiles or asteroids or nukes or anything. Maybe in the attack on Akdor, Earthforce weren't even allowed to use any serious weaponry from orbit, which meant they had to go for a direct infantry attack.

sleepy_shadow October 16th 05 01:23

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Could have been a game involving rock, scizzors and paper. Perhaps the fortress was uniquely equipped to deal with orbital opponents (enough to force the Earth starship to stay outside its field of view) and low-altitude aerial attack/landing *was* sensible?

We weren't really told.

Nor can we make much assumptions about the mines used in the proposed time and place (the cost of clearing them, or the feasibility of clearing them with robotic vehicles). Might have been excessively smart mines, refusing to detonate for anything which EarthForce could quickly send to clear them.

One thing seems sure, though... given how apparently close the helicopter-like thingies got, I would suspect the fortress *could* have been leveled with a cruise missile or drone carrying some suitable weapon of mass destruction.

Then again, there could be an explanation to that not happening -- like such an option being politically difficult.

babylonfan October 16th 05 20:36

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Perhaps the campaign was led by politicians instead of generals. Would not be the first time a war was done this way. For instance Rolling Thunder in Vietnam.

During that period the US could still have won the campaign quite easily if no restrictions had been placed on "acceptable targets". Instead a long list was made with targets that where allowed, targets that for the most part had limited or no real military value.

KoshFan October 16th 05 22:58

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Well, I don't mean to turn this into a political thread, but let's say that the US could have done a lot more damage and scored military successes more easily if there hadn't been an acceptable target list. Whether or not we would have "won," I think, would still have been up to the Vietnamese.

But like I've said before: JMS and the folks doing the special effects were no military experts. I think the phrase "A little knowledge..." applies here very well.

QMCO5 October 20th 05 18:38

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I forgot to check on the writer. I think it does make a difference that DiTillo wrote the episode and not JMS, who is normally pretty good at getting military customs right. However, he made a couple of mistakes in the episode "All Alone in the Night." In that episode no one comes to attention when General Hague comes aboard B5 and Ivanova enters the elevator ahead of Hague, both incorrect. Yet on "A Distant Star" the entry guard snaps to attention and salutes CAPT Maynard as he leaves the station. As for the Garibaldi incident with General Franklin I wouldn't be surprised if Jerry Doyle just blew it on his own, since he so frequently has his hands in his pockets. Kind of like a tic.

QMCO5

QMCO5 October 20th 05 18:47

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Tactical nuclear weapons can be set to destroy a specific size target, such as a city block. Yes, there is a radiation problem, but not as much in the long run as one might think. Just remember that Hiroshima is a thriving city today. There are many environmental factors that affect the radiation threat.

Perhaps the most realistic suggestion offered in these responses is the reality of political decisions sometimes outweighing tactical considerations in seizing a military objective.

QMCO5

Jan October 20th 05 23:32

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

However, he made a couple of mistakes in the episode "All Alone in the Night." In that episode no one comes to attention when General Hague comes aboard B5 and Ivanova enters the elevator ahead of Hague, both incorrect.

This part may have hit the cutting room floor? According to the script:

Quote:

INT. BABYLON 5 - CUSTOMS AREA

Sparsely populated, not a lot of folks around. Ivanova waits. Finally, we SEE GENERAL HAGUE. He comes forward, Ivanova approaches.

IVANOVA
General, welcome to Babylon 5.

GEN. HAGUE
Commander.

IVANOVA
I apologize for the lack of an honor guard, but we were given specific instructions by your office--

GEN. HAGUE
Yes, well, I'd rather not make a fuss. Never cared much for all the show. I was told Captain Sheridan would be here...?


Plus Sheridan told Ivanova earlier that it was a private visit. When's the elevator scene? It's not mentioned as they're leaving the customs area.

Jan

QMCO5 October 22nd 05 00:10

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
The fact that the visit was "private" is immaterial. Generals are always making site visits, sometimes to get a first-hand report from the site commander. When a General officer enters everyone snaps to attention. That is military custom. A General might "say" he doesn't want any fuss, but believe me, subordinates will render the proper respect. Sheridan does it right in GROPOS when General Franklin came aboard.

QMCO5

Boxie October 28th 05 22:01

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Well guys... :D I liked it! Of course, I have no practical knowledge of military protocol, so some of things mentioned didn't bother me at all. Although, I was surprised to see the look on Sheridan's face, and his reply, to the General when met with the news he had to find beds for everyone. I would have assumed that required only a, "Yes, sir." response, reserving his "abba abba...but.." reply, and his doubt, for later.

And how about that Dodger!! What a little spitfire she was! I think she snuck( ;) ) up on Mr. Garilbaldi...He liked her a lot. I think what stopped him was the prospect of messing up his life even more, and maybe inadvertently hers, with an ill-planned move.

Dodger said a lot of things to Michael in his quarters that clearly showed who she was and revealed much about the life she led. Some of her words haunted me when I saw she'd been killed. :( Did she hear the shot that took her out...?? :( I hope not...

I loved the bar fight because of what happened in the middle of it. Michael and Dodger nearly took a swing at each other! They had almost no time to react, but you could just see it kind of tickled them that they came that close! I liked that part so much; the rest of the fight is just a blur.

I also liked the General Franklin character. Paul Winfield was just an excellent actor. I think the stiffness of his dialog and posturing was intentional. Watch him. It almost appears that he's holding his breath, as if he's carrying the weight of this mission and his troops on his chest.

I think he knew what was coming...that it was a dicey mission, that the likelihood of heavy losses was great, and the only chance of savings some of those lives and meeting the objective was to never take his eye off the ball.

Long time a soldier, I think he knew he could ill-afford to mentally stray from his mission, or his men, to address personal relationships or make speeches. The rest would have to wait; he had a job to do.

I gave it an "A". :cool:

Jacqui January 12th 06 13:33

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
This episode is a favorite, but also gripes me in many ways. I won't even get into the military protocol debate. I'm daughter of Navy, was Navy briefly myself, and was married to Navy for 15+ years (first enlisted, then he was promoted to CWO, then full officer over the course of his career). The less said about those mistakes the better. But it is true. Darling Michael would not be standing around a superior officer with his hands in his pants! :lol:

One point, though. . .Garibaldi is a CWO--Chief Warrant Officer--in Earthforce. That is a commissioned rank, not a noncommissioned one. Someone refered to him as a noncom in a previous post. Currently, Warrants are usually helo pilots, 2-year degree nurses, etc. That's how my ex went from E6 to CWO. . .his ADN.

Anyway. . .

I'm of the "Garibaldi, you idiot!" camp. Don't take a girl to your room, smooching her madly, then drop her like a hot rock when you have this blinding flash of insight. That's the sort of thing that comes BEFORE you get to the grunting and grappling stage. Think with the OTHER head before you get within 25 feet of a bed, thanks! I've always liked the idea of a woman like Dodger for Garibaldi. Lise is a whining, useless, sack of codependent, temper-tantrum-throwing-in-dire-need-of-therapy (expletive deleted). That JMS had him end up with her totally yanks my chain. Michael is one of those powerful characters that compells people either to love him or hate him. I'm in the love him (truly, madly, desperately) category. But, truth be told, he's what I refer to as a "science project man." A real fixer-upper. You don't put two science projects together because it just won't work. Today or centuries into the future, humans are still humans. That's my rant for the day on that topic. No wonder Zack dubbed Daffy the "Egyptian God of Frustration." G totally frustrated me in that ep as well as "Day of the Dead." Being in love with (or just wanting to. . .ahem. . ."boff") men like him truly is all we need to know of hell.

All in all, Dodger was a great character and deserved a little more screen time. But, that's just me. LOL

Jacqui

crazyhorse July 17th 06 23:44

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Garibaldi,what you playing at man.First bit of action to come your way in years and you decide to go all moral.Not on and not believable.
The squadies behaved like squadies,shallow and out for cheap laughs.
As for the brawl it is in my opinion impossible to do these things realisticly as in real life they are pretty nasty and it would never be allowed on a programme with this sort of audience.A 18 rating would be needed for any real brawl.This is why you don't see any blood.
They all die,I actually like that.One of the differances of B5 compared to other series was the fact that people are just killed off.No last minute rescues or escapes just dead.Adds the realism that war is no game.
I also liked the fact that earth was using its military might once again.Was this because of shadow influence or was the EA thinking that they had to flex their muscles.
Once again,Garibaldi you are either gay or have been castrated.Single men never say no to a bit of no strings attached fun.
Well I don't anyway.

A_M_Swallow July 18th 06 00:17

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:


Once again,Garibaldi you are either gay or have been castrated.Single men never say no to a bit of no strings attached fun.
Well I don't anyway.

Well Jerry Doyle's pregnant wife was watching. He did not ditch Andrea Thompson until after the birth.

vacantlook July 18th 06 01:17

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

I also liked the fact that earth was using its military might once again.Was this because of shadow influence or was the EA thinking that they had to flex their muscles.

I think the planet they were doing the thing on was of some sort of transportationally strategic importance.

KoshFan July 18th 06 11:53

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Yeah, but the background was never really made clear.

It's kind of like Grenada, only bloodier.

Springer July 18th 06 14:30

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I think with the Narn and Centauri duking it out, Earth wanted to strengthen their position and take advantage of whatever the outcome of the war was going to be. I don't think they were particularly interested in the civil war on that planet, they just wanted it for strategic purposes. In fact, doesn't General Franklin say something like that during the episode?

And I'd take Lise over Dodger any day of the week.

Jade Jaguar July 18th 06 22:48

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:


And I'd take Lise over Dodger any day of the week.

Yeah, but how about nights of the weekend? :D

Lousy_Dodgers August 16th 06 18:19

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
First off, I agree with the idea that it is far more efficient to simply bombard something from orbit. I suspect that planetary bombardment in any form might be frowned upon though. We already know that treaties exist surrounding the use of mass drivers. At the very least, planetary bombardment--even just using regular beam weapons as the Narn and Drazi used in their assault on Centauri Prime--might bring interstellar condemnation.

In a larger sense, that is always something that has bugged me about alien invasion movies. These supposeldy intelligent beings decide to leave the relative safety of space to land on a planet and enable the humans to have a chance to hurt them.

I guess one argument might be that either Earth or the government in question wanted to capture the rebel leaders...or at least keep their bodies intact. If you obliterate the base from orbit, it is harder to show conclusive proof that you managed to eliminate the leaders of the rebellion. I am sure the government then took those bodies and distributed images of them to their news outlets to show the public that the resistance had been crushed.

However, even if this is the case, the tactics employed were still kind of stupid. I can understand wanting to send in ground forces to capture any leaders but why did the helicopter-like craft have to be right on top of the base when engaging its defenses? Even without planetary bombardment, they could have launched missiles at some of the gun emplacements from a hundred miles away or more.

Chilli August 24th 07 00:18

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Two points on the episode after having watched it earlier today:

* Is Larry DiTillio some kind of monk? Has he actually ever *met* a man?? Though I'm the least qualified person in the universe to speak of how to deal with women, with my immense crap-with-the-ladies aura, which I by now cannot put down to anything but voodoo or some shit ... oh boy.

GKE is completely right, Garibaldi is beyond dork here. Not wanting to shag her? Okay, also if his reasons seem silly to us. But only thinking of that after having dragged her to his quarters? Garibaldi would never be that much of a loser.

* JMS speaking on this episode:
Quote:

As for GROPOS, that one episode was so far over budget that I had to write 2 smaller ones to make up for it, and the many people you saw were really just one small group that took forever to digitally composite into looking like a much bigger group.
Aside from it being an awful waste on GROPOS, I'm trying to figure out which ones these would be. I would have thought Hunter, Prey and There all the Honor Lies. As the latter is a Peter David episode though, that doesn't quite seem right. Comes The Inquisitor?

Skander August 24th 07 19:34

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
GROPOS is a B-episode to me. I liked it for the most part. Cheesy bar fight scenes and all.

I'm on the "black dude is cool" bandwagon.

I'm also in the "don't know enough of military protocol to get really peeved at various inconsistencies" crowd. Though reading this now, it sort of fits with Garibaldi's character to do the hand-in-pockets bit on purpose.

Dodger was feisty and looked like she'd be an animal under the sheets (guess Garibaldi will never know). Twice rejecting her!! Doesn't make much sense that he rejected her and makes even less sense that they brought her back for "Day of the Dead". The man rejected her when Lise was out of the picture, now that he's practically married he'll go for it, c'mon. Instead have Talia come back and really cause a dilemma for Garibaldi (and Doyle in real life).:cool: Gen. Franklin was an OK character being played by a good actor.

For having nothing to do with the main arc, the episode held up pretty well. As far as blowing the budget out of the water; if its any consolation to JMS, I could tell they pulled out all the stops to make this episode. From the CGI invasion, to the landing of all the troops on B5. Its one of those episodes I point to and go see how much better B5 is than all the other shows at giving your imagination a break and actually SHOWING you its universe.

Elipsis August 27th 07 01:56

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I B'd this one as well. The "walking stereotypes" as someone correctly put it cracked me up. (Sgt. Plug, I believe the guy's name was.)

The ending was pretty strong imo, and dark enough that it is another episode that seperates B5 from many of the "optimistic" sci-fi shows.

maneth August 27th 07 12:16

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I don't know military protocol enough to be bothered by the glitches there, but we must remember that in spite of his position, Garibaldi has always been an anti-authority guy. He didn't like General Franklin stamping in and giving orders where he would've accepted them from Sheridan.

I never really saw the point why the GROPOS couldn't be quartered in their ships. Why did they have to invade B5? Sure, the guys could use some shore leave, but let them visit the station for a few hours each, and not all at the same time. I suspect that was only because they wanted to make things chaotic on station, and for Dodger to hook up with Garibaldi.

I found Garibaldi's refusal of Dodger at that stage a bit weird, but surely not all guys are ruled by their gonads? Garibaldi loved Lise, and he only realized how much when he found out she was married.

Skander August 27th 07 13:31

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I just re-watched this episode this weekend and am thinking more that it was Talia that hung over him, not Lise. He mentions how news of Lise really messed him up, but then he says ". . . then there's this lady that I shouldn't have a shot in hell with . . ." and continues " . . . maybe its with this other lady, maybe its with you, but for once in my life I want to slow down and think . . ."

The poor guy doesn't know it, but Talia has already made her decision on who she wants to be with at the end of "A Race Through Dark Places" when she goes into Ivanova's quarters late and calls her ". . . the only person on the station she could think of."

I still think Garibaldi should've thought of all that Lise/Talia stuff before laying the girl down on his bed and then stopping--ya just don't tease like that.

hypatia August 27th 07 14:38

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maneth (Post 307217)
I never really saw the point why the GROPOS couldn't be quartered in their ships. Why did they have to invade B5? Sure, the guys could use some shore leave, but let them visit the station for a few hours each, and not all at the same time. I suspect that was only because they wanted to make things chaotic on station, and for Dodger to hook up with Garibaldi.

I assume it might be no small matter trying to round up soldiers who've been given just three hours of shore leave. :) ;)

I just assumed shore leave was always done this way: a minimal crew stays behind, while most of the crew take off.

A_M_Swallow August 27th 07 16:55

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maneth (Post 307217)
I don't know military protocol enough to be bothered by the glitches there, but we must remember that in spite of his position, Garibaldi has always been an anti-authority guy. He didn't like General Franklin stamping in and giving orders where he would've accepted them from Sheridan.

Garibaldi is a policeman not a soldier so generals are not authorised to give him and his men orders. Sheridan may be a military officer but he is also governor of Babylon 5. It is the post of Governor that can give orders to Garibaldi.

Having said that refusing a request for a man able to give orders to you boss is inadvisable.

maneth August 27th 07 19:31

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
True. I think his point was more that Gen. Franklin wasn't his direct superior. He'd certainly consider a request, but he wouldn't accept a military-style order. Given the way Franklin ran his home like a boot camp when he was there, he might've had some trouble distinguishing between civilian and military relationships. The rules are very different.

Sindatur August 27th 07 19:53

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I'm not sure his "rejection" of Dodger in this episode was neccessarily due to feelings for any woman in particular. I got the sense it was just a general, "I make impulsive decisions all the time and screw things up". He's been sober and had a position of authority for some time, and his life is on the road to recovery, more than it ever has been. I think Dodger just happened to be the point in his life he finally decided to think about and analyze a decision before making it, to ensure he was making the right decision and didn't damage the possible future. Admittedly, he should've come to this decision earlier. If not before taking her to his cabin, at least before the clothes started coming off.

KoshFan August 31st 07 16:26

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
As I understand it, the Security/EarthForce relationship was a little awkward; some of Security were EarthForce personnel and some weren't. But yes, Sheridan was still in charge, even if Franklin outranked him.

Cell November 18th 08 23:36

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by A_M_Swallow (Post 307250)
Garibaldi is a policeman not a soldier so generals are not authorised to give him and his men orders. Sheridan may be a military officer but he is also governor of Babylon 5. It is the post of Governor that can give orders to Garibaldi.

Having said that refusing a request for a man able to give orders to you boss is inadvisable.


Having just watched this episode, Garibaldi is an officer in EarthForce, if a General gives him an order he will follow it and they are well within their right to do so. Look back at the episode Eyes, he has to answer to the orders given to him by a Colonel because Garibaldi falls into the military chain of command and in turn his security officers will do whatever he tells them to do and he will tell them to do whatever a higher ranking officer tells him to tell them to do.

A_M_Swallow November 19th 08 04:06

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
On Babylon 5 Garibaldi does nor wear a soldier's uniform. He wears a security uniform.
It is after Eyes that Garibaldi determined his chain of command.

KoshFan November 19th 08 04:32

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Except Garibaldi's uniform is distinctly different from the rest of B5 Security: it has the leather panel, and the EA insignia.

But every time we stick our head into this "B5 ranks/chain of command" stuff, we end up arguing, because it's not perfectly internally consistent and it doesn't match any real comparable system we have today.

RommieSG November 19th 08 11:22

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Garibaldi is a Non-Commissioned Officer with the rank of 'Chief Warrant Officer'. According to what I'm reading, the Warrant Officer has all the authority and responsibilities of a commissioned officer, but restricted to a single speciality or discipline. In this case, Security. Warrant officers are placed in authority over enlisted personnel, but answerable to senior officers. It would explain why his uniform is a variant of the security grey.

On the topic of the episode itself though, I just got done watching this a little while ago, and I loved it. I loved the camraderie that formed between Keffer and the two GROPOS, and felt the sorrow when they found out their fates at the end of the episode. I can't wait for 'Day of the Dead' in Season 5 now.

vacantlook November 19th 08 12:19

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Keffer standing there at the end reacting to the casualty list was probably the character's most dramatic moment in the entire show, let alone in the episode.

Cell November 19th 08 21:21

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by A_M_Swallow (Post 332645)
On Babylon 5 Garibaldi does nor wear a soldier's uniform. He wears a security uniform.
It is after Eyes that Garibaldi determined his chain of command.

He wears the uniform of an EF Officer, as the chief warrant officer he is a part of the chain of command. While B5's chain of command may be murky, it is never in question that Garibaldi is an officer in EF and that he is answerable to all the same military protocol as any other officer.

A_M_Swallow November 19th 08 21:30

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Cell loop up what an NCO is.

Cell November 19th 08 22:47

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I know exactly what an NCO is, and based on the fact that for the most part EF appears to operate under the same ranks as the present day US Armed Forces, Garibaldi would actually be a commissioned officer since he is the Chief Warrant Officer on B5. In the US Armed Forces a chief warrant officer, and that is what Garibaldi is, isn't a non-commissioned officer but rather a commissioned officer. Even if Garibaldi were a NCO, he would still be within the chain of command and therefore wouldn't be a civilian in any way. He would be answerable to any superiors in rank, and when told to be at ease, he certainly wouldn't be putting his hands in his pockets. He would also follow all orders from superior officers, he does this in Eyes, and he does this all the time when he takes orders from Ivanova, Sheridan and Sinclair. If any other officer of a superior rank were on station he would also take orders from them, because that is what NCO's or CO's do.

G'Kar February 4th 09 22:48

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Overall the episode is average so I give it a B, but I always liked the ending of this episode for some reason. I guess it's just the thought that the person you could be sitting next to one minute can be dead the next day.


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:20.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2001 - 2008 B5TV.COM