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-   -   EpDis: GROPOS (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=8089)

vacantlook June 6th 05 17:40

EpDis: GROPOS
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for GROPOS
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for GROPOS

GKarsEye June 6th 05 18:47

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I like it. Dodger is a babe. Garibaldi is a moron- I lost a lot of respect for him after that episode.

KoshFan June 6th 05 19:01

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Kind of a letdown after the last one. A spearcarrier ep, so to speak.

My respect for Garibaldi went up after this episode, but hands up: who's surprised GKE and I have radically different approaches to that whole deal?

Shaal Mayan June 6th 05 19:44

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I gave this one a B I gained a lot more respect for Garibaldi cause he didn't sleep with Dodger .His feelings for Talia which had been obvious are what kept him from doing so .

vacantlook June 6th 05 19:50

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

His feelings for Talia which had been obvious are what kept him from doing so.

I remember it being feelings for Lise that kept Garibaldi from going at it with Dodger.

Sindatur June 6th 05 19:56

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I was gonna post the same thing VL, and then I thought, maybe I was wrong and it was Talia in Gropos, but, Lise in Day of the Dead.

So, was it Talia in Gropos, or Lise as I initially thought?

Shaal Mayan June 6th 05 19:58

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I think it was Talia in Gropos cause Lise would have been to Franz at this time .And in Day of the Dead it is Lise .

deaded June 6th 05 20:04

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Not my favorite episode. Bad acting all around (except maybe Dodger). I too read it as Lise, not Talia that he was saving himself for. I'd go back and watch it again but I don't want to. This ep anoyed me.

GKarsEye June 6th 05 20:31

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

I was gonna post the same thing VL, and then I thought, maybe I was wrong and it was Talia in Gropos, but, Lise in Day of the Dead.

So, was it Talia in Gropos, or Lise as I initially thought?

See, exactly! We don't even know why he's not doing it!
Lise? That relationship was OVER. He left her, the end. It's immature to break it off with someone and then complain and whine and let it hinder your future happiness. Remember- it's not that they had an extremely long distance relationship- they were done. She moved on with her life and married two guys.

And Talia? All he had for her was a physical attraction or infatuation at best, with a very occassional flirtation- the kind of thing most men have with like a dozen women, which is meaningless. He was not in love with her.

Also, it was just stupid to have two episodes about Garibaldi refusing the sexual advances of the same woman.

And don't think I'm just reacting negatively to any scene where a dude turns down sex. Sheridan turning down the Nightwatch skank was awesome.

Sindatur June 6th 05 20:38

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Now that GKE puts it like that, I'm pretty sure that it was his feelings for Lise, but, not so much about his actual feelings for Lise, but, rather the mistakes he made in his past relationships (especially with Lise). He didn't want to rush into anything new, he wanted to be sure he got it right this time. Then in Day of the Dead, he was back in a relationship with Lise.

Not that I agree with his reasoning for not bumping uglies in Gropos, but, I remember now that was how I saw it as being related to us.

GKarsEye June 6th 05 20:42

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Yeah, Garibaldi was full of self-pity and regret. Ok, fine. But he must have known that Dodger was really into him, plus that she wouldn't be there long. Then he refused her.

That means he led her on, and that shit ain't right.

vacantlook June 6th 05 20:43

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
The extended synopsis from the Lurker's Guide says Lise.

Quote:

Garibaldi takes Dodger to his quarters, where they are barely able to keep their hands off of each other. They sit down on the bed, and prepare to continue, but before they go any further, Garibaldi explains the troubles he has had recently, with Lise and his near-death after being shot by his aide. He tells her that, if she is the one for him, he doesn't want to ruin it by going too fast. She gets up and explains her situation to him. "You know, I didn't come here expecting to set up housekeeping. I'm a ground pounder. I'm cleaning latrines one day, the next I might be up to my hips in blood, hoping that I don't hear the round that takes me out. You got it? In between, I like to try to see what I can get, to remind myself that I'm alive. Right, it's not romance, but it's all I got time for. I'm so sorry it's not enough for you." He tries to call after her as she leaves, but she won't speak to him.


admiraldave June 6th 05 21:34

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Eh, I liked this episode, but "Gropos" is kinda weak. Outside of Franklin's father, I didn't like any of the guest cast (the grunts were walking stereotypes), there's some clunky lines, and I'm this is one were I started to get sick of the over-the-top station riots.

On another board, we were talking about how one of the problems with the new Battlestar Galactica, is that the cast seems somewhat divorced from the rest of the fleet, there's talk of "water riots", but they aren't shown, or seem to affect the cast. But if the alternative is some B5-esque free-for-alls, I'd prefer not to see them.

vacantlook June 6th 05 21:48

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I agree that the episode was -- especially compared to many other episodes -- kinda weak. The biggest hitpoint for me in the episode is the shot at the end with the dead soldiers laying on the ground. And then everyone walking away on B5 after the news report leaving Keffer standing alone; it was probably his biggest dramatic moment in the entire series, in my opinion.

PillowRock June 6th 05 22:11

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

But if the alternative is some B5-esque free-for-alls, I'd prefer not to see them.

The problem was that doing a *good* street riot or bar brawl scene (or even small scale hand-to-hand fight) is a very time consuming (and therefore expensive) proposition. B5 never had either the budget or the time in their shooting schedule to do those thngs up right. So those fights go on the list of things that, for the sake of the good story that they're telling us, you just forgive that as having been a a concession to budget limitations (like a lot of the sets, for example).

So when I watch the Susan's bar brawl in Eyes, my "willing suspension of disbelief" kicks in and I choose see an example of what a badass Susan is when provoked (which is what all of dialog and acting choices seem to be telling us). If I took what I actually saw Susan doing in that fight as the true indicator of her prowess, I would have to conclude that she missed every hand-to-hand lesson in all of her military training and had also never been much of an athlete in general. She looks awful in that fight (as does everyone else involved).

I'm not sure whether BSG would have the resources to do one of those scenes well.

GKarsEye June 6th 05 22:18

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Oh yeah, this is the one with Franklin's father. I liked that part. I just don't like that he was never mentioned again. I'm sure he was on Clark's side during the Civil War.

hypatia June 6th 05 22:40

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Yeah, Garibaldi was full of self-pity and regret. Ok, fine. But he must have known that Dodger was really into him, plus that she wouldn't be there long. Then he refused her.

That means he led her on, and that shit ain't right.

Or he didn't like the idea of sleeping with a woman he just met and he might, very soon, never see again.

Is that really so horrible? :)

hypatia June 6th 05 22:49

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Oh yeah, this is the one with Franklin's father. I liked that part. I just don't like that he was never mentioned again. I'm sure he was on Clark's side during the Civil War.

Franklin's father and Dodger were the best characters in this episode, definitely. For me anyway.

It had not occured to me that one of Keffer's best moments (if not THE best) was that silent shot. Good point, Vacantlook. :cool:

GKarsEye June 7th 05 02:22

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Quote:

Yeah, Garibaldi was full of self-pity and regret. Ok, fine. But he must have known that Dodger was really into him, plus that she wouldn't be there long. Then he refused her.

That means he led her on, and that shit ain't right.

Or he didn't like the idea of sleeping with a woman he just met and he might, very soon, never see again.

Is that really so horrible? :)

Well he should have thought of that before bringing her into his room.

Isn't it great to have a sci-fi show that has us thinking about sexuality and relationships in realistic way?

hypatia June 7th 05 03:29

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
That's true, I guess. But I never though of him as a loser for what he did. I figured he wanted to show her Warner Brothers cartoons. ;) :D

deaded June 7th 05 03:45

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:


Or he didn't like the idea of sleeping with a woman he just met and he might, very soon, never see again.

Is that really so horrible? :)

It is if you're a guy.

hypatia June 7th 05 06:22

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Only if you are one kind of a guy, Deaded. Although what old Mighty was referring to, I think, was more the "leading on" idea.

If a gal can changer her mind, why can't a guy? :)

RW7427 June 7th 05 06:48

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I gave it a C. Not great stuff, but entertaining enough nonetheless.

Elric June 7th 05 09:28

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
This is my least favourite episode in season 2 (not bad enough for a D though). I think it appears worse coming after one of (if not the) best episode in the season.

As previously pointed out, the end was very good. I like the way that B5 does not glorify war, but shows it for what it really is - a terrible loss of life!

Springer June 7th 05 09:34

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I didn't really like this episode very much. It was a character-driven episode, but none of the characters were very interesting. The Franklin's father/son storyline was a bit wishy-washy, and I could never see the attraction of Dodger. Probably the best character moment in the episode is between Ivanova and Franklin in medlab. I gave the episode a C.

And the riot scenes always make me laugh. This one in GROPOS wasn't too bad, but there is one later in The Long Twilight Struggle which is really really bad! But because the story is so strong you can gloss over it.

GKarsEye June 7th 05 14:58

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
They can, it's just annoying.

I was of course exaggerating when I said my "respect" for Garibaldi went down. After Sheridan, he's my favorite human character on the show. He just had moment of idiocy. Happens, no big deal.

I don't think it would bother me at all if it weren't for Day of the Dead, actually.

Quote:

and I could never see the attraction of Dodger.

Cute, ass-kicking fiesty red-head. Amongst the top three hottest chick characters to guest star on B5 (along with Number One and Franklin's singer).


Here's something that I don't like about the episode: the battle had no significance to the overall story. I must have seen the entire series half a dozen times and I don't even remember what they were fighting about.
Also, isn't a bit cheesy that everyone we met died? Yeah, yeah, war is horrible, we know. I think the only character we met that survived was General Franklin (and maybe the drill seargent).

The big black guy that crashed with Keffer: cool or annoying?

hypatia June 7th 05 15:56

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Yea, it was a bit over-the-top that they all died, I suppose, but it was a quick way to make his point.

I liked the back-slapping big, black guy. Yea, I agree with those who say the characters were awfully stereotypical. Depth wasn't what JMS was going for in this one, I think. He was going for color, flavor more than content or depth.

Despite the 2-d kind of guest characters, I actually liked them a lot.

Will anyone vote with me about the backdrop during Franklin's father's interview was the most unconvincing you've ever seen in B5? :lol: I have not seen the series for some time, and have not seen it 12 times. But I still remember thinking "wow, that's pretty horrible". :lol:

GKarsEye June 7th 05 16:04

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Heh, yeah, that was pretty weak.

RW7427 June 7th 05 16:11

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

The big black guy that crashed with Keffer: cool or annoying?

He's okay, but I'm leaning toward annoying.

PillowRock June 7th 05 16:31

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Quote:

and I could never see the attraction of Dodger.

Cute, ass-kicking fiesty red-head. Amongst the top three hottest chick characters to guest star on B5 (along with Number One and Franklin's singer).

Yeah, I liked Dodger. I'm not sure about the "top 3", though. Naturally this is a matter of personal taste, but I also liked Julie Catlin Brown when she came back to guest as a human (Sheridan's appointed lawyer).


Quote:

isn't a bit cheesy that everyone we met died?

On the other hand, it isn't necessarily unrealistic. Most of them were in the same squad. It looked like they had gotten caught in a "killing zone" area (probably approaching the fortifications); *lots* of corpses in a very small area. It happens. Whole units can get wiped out pretty easily if they get caught in a spot like that. That has been true since at least the American Civil War (much before that the weaponry just wasn't efficient enough).

aajay June 7th 05 17:07

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Not one of my favorites either. Really nothing in it to get excited about. The ending is very moving.

vacantlook June 7th 05 17:07

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Quote:

The big black guy that crashed with Keffer: cool or annoying?

He's okay, but I'm leaning toward annoying.

I lean toward annoying too.

PillowRock June 7th 05 17:25

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
As a one-shot he was OK.

If he had been around for an ongoing period, he would have quickly become annoying (if they didn't flesh him out more).

Sindatur June 7th 05 17:35

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
I thought he was annoying, but, I can understand how his close friends could really come to love him.

GKarsEye June 7th 05 19:08

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

I thought he was annoying, but, I can understand how his close friends could really come to love him.

He's probably great to have with you during a fight.



I'm not saying the ending is unrealistic, just that it's heavy-handed. Oh look, all those colorful characters we met are dead now because of the futiliy of war.

vacantlook June 7th 05 19:19

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

He's probably great to have with you during a fight.

Very true.

Jade Jaguar June 8th 05 04:57

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
What I liked most about this EP, was that war, instead of being portrayed as brave and glorious, was portrayed as ill-conceived, brutal, and deadly.

I also liked the Garibaldi-Dodger thing for its interesting role reversal. It's usually the guy going off to war, not knowing if he will ever make it back, who expects sex from a woman, due to his situation. And, in the movies, he usually gets it, even in WWII era films! This was a total reversal. I think Garibaldi was a jerk to wimp out as he did, under the circumstances. Dodger was right - it was supposed to be uncomplicated, and not a continuing relationship, so Mr. G's baggage had no place there.

Chilli June 24th 05 00:40

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

Depth wasn't what JMS was going for in this one, I think.

It's not a JMS episode .. which probably explains why we all like it less than any random other given episode :D

I agree .. *everyone* dying was a bit too .. over-the-top predictable drama. Yes, it's war, yes, lots of people die .. but .. everyone really? Except for the general .. who would be in the safest position anyways I suppose.

As for the complete non-relevance of the war .. reminds me a bit of the times there have been US military strikes on the news outside of reported conflicts that just seemed so .. random. Though this was a bit .. big for random, yes.

And I guess I'm the only one for whom the Franklin's dad thingy just got a bit too .. clichee in the end. Oh well :D

vacantlook June 24th 05 03:10

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Quote:

As for the complete non-relevance of the war .. reminds me a bit of the times there have been US military strikes on the news outside of reported conflicts that just seemed so .. random. Though this was a bit .. big for random, yes.

I rewatched this episode recently, I having read of others mentioning how irrelevant it was to other things, I was actually surprised to find that there are a few lines in the episode that make it relevant (though not super-relevant; it was connected, I guess you could say).

General Franklin tells Sheridan that the world that he's taking the GROPOS to help squash a rebellion at is in a strategic position. In helping the government of that planet put down the rebellion, Earth is going to get the right to establish a military presence there. And that that planet is quite near both Narn and Centauri space. So should the Centauri-Narn War get to a point that Earth would have to full-on take part of, that planet would be a serious base for Earth's forces.

QMCO5 October 14th 05 23:06

Re: EpDis: GROPOS
 
Having watched this episode recently on my DVD here's a response. I thought there were some great dialog moments, such as the scenes in LT Keffer’s room, General Franklin’s put down of Garibaldi, and the reconciliation between younger and elder Franklins. But, being an Army veteran there were some glaring glitches. When Sheridan, Garibaldi and Ivanova report to the initial briefing and General Franklin orders “at ease” Sheridan and Ivanova assume the proper position, but Garibaldi puts his hands in his pockets, a definite no-no. (If a Soldier stands around with his hands in his pockets, he might suffer a rude joke.) After departing the briefing from General Franklin, Sheridan, Garibaldi and Ivanova carry on a veiled conversation about it in the hall with subordinates present. I can assure you that no top secret information would be discussed in any fashion in the hearing of anyone that did not possess the same level of clearance.

Another matter was that I noticed that everyone properly addressed the GROPOS Command Sergeant Major as “Sergeant Major,” except for Ivanova. She committed the faux pax of calling him “Sergeant.” Under normal circumstances the Sergeant Major would probably have reported the matter to the General and she would have received a private counseling about showing the respect due the division’s senior non-commissioned officer. The military takes respect of every rank very seriously. (Actually a real Commander would know better.)

In terms of the operation on Akdor, JMS, writing the episode in 1995, seems to have conceived the tactical assault with Viet Nam in mind rather than the modern strategy employed in the first Gulf War, which occurred in 1990-1991. Where was the air support that could have taken out the mine fields and leveled the fortress with bunker busting bombs? Why didn’t the EA Division level the fortress with rockets from ground artillery? Why not level the fortress with missiles from the Destroyer in orbit? Why not use a tactical nuke on the fortress? But, if you actually wanted to preserve the fortress there is such a thing as a neutron weapon that kills without destroying the infrastructure or even chemical weapons. And, what was the point of a helicopter assault as was commonly used in Viet Nam? Today helicopters are not flown close enough to an objective to receive direct fire from the enemy. The infantry makes far more use of light armored vehicles to take them to an objective. I would expect that military tactics, weaponry and equipment would get more sophisticated two hundred years from now, not be inferior to current capabilities. (JMS must not have had a military advisor on this episode.) This aspect of GROPOS was disappointing!

QMCO5


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