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-   -   EpDis: Soul Mates (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=7983)

vacantlook May 16th 05 05:58

EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Next episode.

Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Soul Mates
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Soul Mates

vacantlook May 16th 05 06:06

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
I'll make three preliminary comments about this episode.

I didn't like the Matt Stoner plot. Of the multitude of former relationships brought coming surprising to the station that have occurred on the show, this one bores me the most. We already had Talia having a former relationship from PsiCorps come onto the station with Jason Ironheart having had some new psi power brought out in him at the hands of PsiCorps. Having a second one is just "Eh" to me.

I find it interesting that the original name of this episode was "Pestilence, Famine, and Death." Londo originally called his three wives this back in season one's "The War Prayer." I don't remember if it was brought out in the thread for "The War Prayer," but I'll bring it out here: if Londo's three wives are Pestilence, Famine, and Death -- three of the four Horsemen of the Apocalypse -- does that make Londo War?

And third brief comment: I love the small Ivanova-Delenn hair plot.

deaded May 16th 05 08:21

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
I think the Stoner thing (GOTTA love the name) would have meant more had Talia stayed and turned into the Lyta character. She sure did sleep around though, didn't she? Kinda makes me wish I'd met her.

And the three wife thing? Perfect!! Pure gold IMHO. It DEFINES Londo and the Centauri. It was perfect.

(plus bald chicks turn me on)

Also, here is the first time you begin to realize that Londo is suffering from dimentia. I mean SERIOUSLY. You can choose one wife of three: An ugly bitch who hates you, an even uglier bitch who hates you even more and is even MORE ambitious than you; and a hot chick with a great body and lips that obviously want to encompase cylindrical objects who wants to please you as much as she can.

Hmmmmmmm...... Let me THINK. :rolleyes:

Your choice.

vacantlook May 16th 05 08:44

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Quote:

...and a hot chick with a great body and lips that obviously want to encompase cylindrical objects who wants to please you as much as she can.

You forgot to add that she just attempted to assassinate you.

RMcD May 16th 05 13:21

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
It annoys me that there are three episodes in a row here early in Season 2 that devote a lot of time to developing Talia's character, a) because I don't like her half as much as Lyta, and get pretty sick of her whining vulnerability and b) because in the end its all in aid of nothing anyway..

The stuff with Londo's wives is all okay, but all Peter David's episodes do tend to remind me of Star Trek more than JMS'.. The whole harem thing is very TOS..

But I do like the traditional B5 technique of building an episode by cutting together three or four plotlines that don't necessarily intersect. It's one of the series' strengths that it can do this.

vacantlook May 16th 05 13:44

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
I wonder if these three in a row Talia heavy episodes were a result of Andrea's expressed desire for more featured screentime.

Shaal Mayan May 16th 05 17:16

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
I gave this one a B almost a C but I loved seeing Londo's three wives finally show up in the series the downer is the Matt Stoner plot with Talia never really took to the character .

GKarsEye May 16th 05 17:55

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Quote:

Also, here is the first time you begin to realize that Londo is suffering from dimentia. I mean SERIOUSLY. You can choose one wife of three: An ugly bitch who hates you, an even uglier bitch who hates you even more and is even MORE ambitious than you; and a hot chick with a great body and lips that obviously want to encompase cylindrical objects who wants to please you as much as she can.

Eh, I bet as Londo became more important and successful he was getting his choice of primo Centauri tail, he didn't need that crazy bitch. The marriage is a business arrangement.

Londo is simply pulling a Clinton.

I like the ep for the Lond and G'Kar stuff. The Matt Stoner thing is ok, not great.

KoshFan May 16th 05 18:48

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
A- for the dialogue. You've got Londo being funny, Timov being witty, and G'Kar being G'Kar. It's fun.

RW7427 May 16th 05 20:35

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
I love it! :D Except for Matt Stoner. I hate him. :mad:

admiraldave May 16th 05 22:04

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Yeah, the Stoner plot was weak. The guest actor was okay, it's just that particular plot dragged. Timov, however, rules. It's one of my small regrets about the show, that we never got her back for more verbal sparring.

RW7427 May 16th 05 22:08

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Yeah, I loved Timov! She was great! :D

vacantlook May 16th 05 22:51

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Yeah, I'm on the wagon of Timov-lovers too.

Springer May 17th 05 13:04

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
I'm surprised that this episode isn't that popular. I found it smart, and one of the few examples of genuine humour in B5 (the other being Sic Transit Vir). I also didn't mind the Stoner plotline either, although I'm disapointed that the Talia/Garibaldi relationship didn't go anywhere. As for Talia, I prefer her to Lyta, I think Andrea Thompson is a much better actress than Pat Tallman. Its a shame that Talia's character was underdeveloped, and the only screen time she ever got was when an old flame came onto the station (at least that's the way it seemed sometimes, either an old flame or an old friend like Taro Isogi).

B5obsessive May 17th 05 13:21

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Great ep! B++ 'cos A's are reserved for the real mindblowers. Timov RULES! As a brown belt in the art of "verbal fencing" I bow to her prowess, the woman is pure venom! :lol: "A bitch like you WOULD know about breeding." *applause* I defend the Matt Stoner plot. The controlling Talia to breed more empaths bit. Think about what that means for a sec. :(*shudder* :( All in all great stuff.

GKarsEye May 17th 05 15:37

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Quote:

As for Talia, I prefer her to Lyta, I think Andrea Thompson is a much better actress than Pat Tallman.

Agreed!

Lyta is better as a character simply because she's the one who's arc gets carried out to where the story needed it to go. She just happens to be the show's telepath when the most exciting events in the series happen.

But if you look at their work, Thompson is just such a stronger actress. For one thing- she can actually act! Tallman's delivery of jokes is so corny and obvious. She has no sense of grace and subtlety. Her only strong on-screen moments as an actress are at the end of season 5, when she's ultra-powerful badass, because that demands a lack of subtlety, and her sharp features and red hair help that image.

Andrea's Thompson's smooth, silky way of speaking and acting make the flirting with Garibaldi fun. Her sensuousness makes the Ironheart thread (which was just made-up to replace Tallman's absence in the first place) actually believable. Her dealing with that murderer (who was gonna get his brain wiped) was engaging and intense, wereas had Tallman done it it would have been awkward to watch.

RMcD May 17th 05 15:53

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
There is an interview with Claudia Christian somewhere out there, in which she points out (to paraphrase) that Andrea Thompson brought a kind of vulnerable sexuality and helplessness to the role that wasn't there anywhere in the script.

I'm afraid I tend to agree with that assessment.. I find it annoying..

A_M_Swallow May 17th 05 18:47

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Yes, the station telepath was meant to be an action role, probably including physical fighting.

GKarsEye May 17th 05 18:59

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Quote:

Yes, the station telepath was meant to be an action role, probably including physical fighting.

Well if that's true than it makes to hire a stuntperson like Pat Tallman.

Makes one wonder why they didn't hire another one like her and instead went with someone so different in Thompson.

Quote:

There is an interview with Claudia Christian somewhere out there, in which she points out (to paraphrase) that Andrea Thompson brought a kind of vulnerable sexuality and helplessness to the role that wasn't there anywhere in the script.

I'm afraid I tend to agree with that assessment.. I find it annoying..

Yeah, see, I like that a lot, I guess that's the difference.

And it's not as if Talia was some helpless damsel in distress- she exhibited a real attitude when she fought off Bester with the underground telepaths. Plus, her external demeanor could be very "ice queen," so the vulnerability played well off of it. It was a nice compliment to Ivanova's "tough as nails" personality and having that balance on the show was neat (as well as he third feminine element- a character becoming more "womanly"- Delenn).

A_M_Swallow May 17th 05 19:03

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Quote:


Well if that's true than it makes to hire a stuntperson like Pat Tallman.

Makes one wonder why they didn't hire another one like her and instead went with someone so different in Thompson.


Possibly the studio wanted a sexy dumb blond.

GKarsEye May 17th 05 19:17

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
She was not dumb.
You have issues with stereotypes, dude.

A_M_Swallow May 17th 05 19:28

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Quote:

She was not dumb.
You have issues with stereotypes, dude.

I know. That is what JMS wrote, not what the suit planned.

deaded May 18th 05 02:58

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Quote:

Quote:

...and a hot chick with a great body and lips that obviously want to encompase cylindrical objects who wants to please you as much as she can.

You forgot to add that she just attempted to assassinate you.

Meh. Details. :rolleyes:

deaded May 18th 05 03:02

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Plus she didn't really try and assassinate him. That artifact was sold to the tall guy by Stoner. No one knew it was dangerous.

As far as we know.

vacantlook May 18th 05 03:14

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Mariel knew exactly what she was doing. The conversation between G'Kar and Mariel in G'Kar's quarters reveals this.

Quoting from the extended synopsis:

Quote:

G'Kar is in his quarters, talking to Mariel. "You know," he says, "the problem with mysteries is that in order to get rid of the headaches, I have to figure them out. Here, we're faced with a staggering set of coincidences. A Centauri artifact, an ancient booby trap, it seems, happens to show up on Babylon 5 just in time to be purchased as a gift for Londo. And rather hide or deny responsibility, the gift giver makes it a point of saying she gave it to him, which neatly avoids any accusation of malicious intent because, usually, when you're trying to kill someone, you hide the attack. And there, you see, my head no longer throbs."

Mariel asks him who he will tell his theory to. G'Kar says he won't reveal it, but that Londo will figure it out eventually. As she leaves, he warns her to not be overconfident -- if he were married to Londo, he'd be concerned right now. "G'Kar," Mariel says as she leaves, "if you were married to Londo, we'd all be concerned."

Mariel's goal was to kill Londo before he had the opportunity to divorce her and leave her with no money. Londo's death would have enabled her to keep her title of being his wife and a nice chunk of Londo's money.

deaded May 18th 05 04:57

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
I see the motive and I see G'Kar's line of reasoning. But there is no proof. Just as there was no proof that Lyta blew up Zahadum. Sheridan had a theory that he discussed with Lyta and she looked really scared/guilty, but she never admitted it. Muriel didn't admit it either. As we know from the Centauri trilogy she was quite resourceful but there are just too many coincidences there. Another way to look at it is that Muriel was innocent but when G'Kar approached her and told her his theory she didn't deny, seeing an opportunity to get on G'Kar's good side. He certainly is a good ally and she is all about politics.

GKarsEye May 18th 05 15:16

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Theater done well includes the art of implication and subtlety. No, "officially" she didn't plot to assassinate him, but we all know she did.

PillowRock May 18th 05 15:54

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
There is no proof that you could make stand up in a court of law.

However, as it is played out by the characters, it is very clear that she did know what she was doing. She tacitly admits as much to G'Kar, while being careful not to actually say so just in case the conversation is being recorded.

hypatia May 18th 05 19:40

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
The day a show has to follow court of law rules is the day I give up watching t.v. entirely.

It was one of the many great scenes in B5. :)

Londos6 May 19th 05 17:13

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Another bit of evidence that she knew what it was was that she pointed to the artifact rather than touching it.

deaded May 19th 05 19:35

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Maybe...

Chilli June 24th 05 00:49

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Thompson definitely was the better actress .. I still just couldn't help .. not really liking Talia very much. She just seemed so .. cold and distant somehow, even when she was starting to thaw. Lyta on the other hand seemed a lot more appealing in general .. just her acting was .. hmm .. she is the one character that was more believable in the dubbed german version I first saw of the show :D .. I *really* noticed it in the early fourth season .. her handling of Kosh2, her explaining the Vorlon situation .. it felt SO obviousley "I'm reading out the lines that I've memorized" to me that it kind of broke the mood for me at times.

The_One June 24th 05 12:40

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
I appreciated this episode more once I'd read the Centauri Trilogy.

*MILD* Centauri Trilogy Spoiler Below...






Isn't it confirmed in the books that Mariel did, indeed, try and kill Londo?

RW7427 June 24th 05 21:23

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Quote:

Isn't it confirmed in the books that Mariel did, indeed, try and kill Londo?


I don't quite remember, but I think she was either under Drakh influence or she was working for Durla.

Chilli August 24th 07 01:21

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Strange how this is the only non-JMS episode I can enjoy almost as much as any random JMS episode. If you ignore the Stoner-plotline, that is.

It's strange .. I can't decide if it's really just the quality difference in the scripts, or if there is something psychological in there too. If an episode was not written by JMS, my mind automatically sees anything happening as not that important .. because if it was important, JMS would be writing it, wouldn't he?

Skander August 24th 07 18:47

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
"Because I don't have a real sword handy." -- Timov

If that line didn't take you to the floor, you need to buy a sense of humor. Timov was an awesome character--stone-cold, witty, and yet very genuine.

I gave this story an A. It's just one of those episodes that makes me really happy. You've got a Londo story (already big points), a continuation of his famous "Pestilence, Famine, and Death" lines, a Talia plotline (scoring points again) and it was all very well-done. I even like the Stoner character--obviously I did't like him--but I drew an extreme DISLIKE of the guy so the actor must have done a good job. Having the character play off Garibaldi, who cared for Talia deeply, was good form. It's a rich character episode and the humor wasn't forced or awkward as is the case in numerous other episodes. This episode does a good job of fleshing out the universe even while not necessarily being overly important to the grander story arc.

To chime in on the Lyta/Talia argument. IMO Andrea is the stronger actress--which immediately gives her character an advantage. It was Lyta's story that was carried througout so I can see how many people would feel loyal to Lyta. I think Andrea would have done just as good if not better job were she to stick throughout the show. Talia had a presence in limited screentime that Lyta doesn't really have and had to work to get. You see mere glimpses in Seasons 3 and 4, and she really comes into her own in Season 5.

All that being said I wouldn't trade Pat Tallman's Lyta for anybody. From the episode "Walkabout" until "Objects in Motion", she makes a monumental ascendance on my favorite characters list. In the pragmatic sense she is the MOST important character in Babylon 5, yet is the one most under-valued and consistently under-appreciated. No wonder she later embraced Byron so quickly and vehemently since he was the only person who'd strike up a conversation without needing something from her.

Sindatur August 24th 07 19:24

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Definitely agreed, Andrea was a better actress than Pat Talman. most of her acting jobs was because she was a stunt woman who could act to a degree, so she got many small "one shot" background parts with a line or two, but, they required a stunt person.

Jade Jaguar August 25th 07 21:35

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindatur (Post 307006)
Definitely agreed, Andrea was a better actress than Pat Talman.

Well, I don't agree. I think Pat is better looking, and the better actress. :p

Elipsis August 27th 07 02:51

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
I grant this episode a "B"

While I wasn't blown away, I was throughly amused and felt the character development and portrayal of all 3 wives was spot on.

maneth August 27th 07 13:25

Re: EpDis: Soul Mates
 
The three wives were wonderful and just what a schemer like Londo deserved. I totally understand why he chose Timov, given that he has access to hot Centauri chicks any time he wants them. It was a marriage of convenience, nothing more. And if you're stuck in such a marriage, it must be a relief to know your wife isn't plotting to kill you, isn't it?

Mariel's plotting was very subtle, but very well done nonetheless. One of my favorite episodes. The only weak point was Stoner. If it hadn't been for him, I'd've given this an A.

Lyta and Talia are very different women, and the actors playing them are also very different. I never found Pat Tallman particularly good, but she's not useless either. I really enjoyed the repartee between Talia and Garibaldi, knowing they were married in real life for most of the shooting.


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