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-   -   EpDis: A Spider In The Web (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=7960)

vacantlook May 10th 05 02:13

EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Episode 2.06.

Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for A Spider In The Web
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for A Spider In The Web

Shaal Mayan May 10th 05 16:41

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
I gave this one a B. Good setup for a another avenue of the B5 universe would have been/might have been a good storyline had AT not left and JMS not knowing about the game with the same name

B5_Obsessed May 12th 05 00:10

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Yeah, the execution was a little off, but I liked a lot of what was in this episode: Project Lazarus, Control, Free Mars, not to mention Bureau 13 and the San Diego Badlands.

RMcD May 12th 05 16:49

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Is the shot of the San Diego Badlands the only non-CG location shot in the whole series? It doesn't look CG to me..

B5_Obsessed May 12th 05 22:48

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Definitely a model.

vacantlook May 12th 05 23:11

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
So here's a question: does anyone think that it was Bureau 13, unspokenly as it was, that modified Garibaldi between seasons 3 and 4? I know it was done under the instruction of Bester, but I doubt Bester did the modification directly on his own. I've wondered if it was B13 under the order of Bester who did the direct modification of Garibaldi's mind.

Granted, I can't remember the specifics of "A Spider In The Web" as well as other episodes, so I can't remember: Bureau 13 was in charge of/responsible for both Control and the "dead" assassign guy, right?

RW7427 May 13th 05 01:52

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
I figured it was Psi-Corp that did it.

**Shrugs.**

vacantlook May 13th 05 01:56

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Bureau 13 was a covert sect of PsiCorp.

RMcD May 13th 05 14:08

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
It was Harlan Ellison. :)

Springer May 13th 05 16:51

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Quote:

Is the shot of the San Diego Badlands the only non-CG location shot in the whole series? It doesn't look CG to me..

I think it was actually a special effect that was taken from Captain Power. I remember spotting it in an episode once, and thinking it was funny that it had been in B5. Then I remembered JMS was involved in both.

As for this episode, I'd give it a C+, mainly because it was a plot thread that was left hanging, and never went anywhere. One of DiTillio's better epsiodes though.

deaded May 15th 05 01:38

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
I give it an A-. I do believe that it was Bester himself that "modified" Garibaldi. I don't see him intrusting it to anyone else. Besides, only a P12 could implant those suggestions so deeply that no once (except Lyta) could remove them. Also the inability to harm him is such a personal thing that it also makes me think he did it himself.

A_M_Swallow May 15th 05 22:58

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
I suspect that Bester did not do the modifications himself but specified the changes. He took Garibaldi to Mars because he needed the help of a specialist.

deaded May 16th 05 07:13

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
I'm not challenging you or anything but tell me, WHY do you think Bester didn't do it himself? He did so many terrible things to so many people I just can't imagine that he'd leave one of his arch enemies to someone else's devices.

vacantlook May 16th 05 07:46

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
I would imagine the process of implanting a subpersonality into a person would require a lot more work than just a single person could put out.

RMcD May 16th 05 12:11

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Quote:

I'm not challenging you or anything but tell me, WHY do you think Bester didn't do it himself? He did so many terrible things to so many people I just can't imagine that he'd leave one of his arch enemies to someone else's devices.

Isn't there a B&W flashback in an episode somewhere (maybe its Exercise of Vital Powers) where Bester is seen telling Harlan Ellison what he needs done to Garibaldi, a-la-carte fashion?

Sindatur May 23rd 05 15:34

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
I was of the impression that we had been told Bester had most of the stuff done to Garibaldi by others through his orders, and then he threw in the Asimov himself after the grunts were done with him?

Chilli June 23rd 05 23:45

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Not-so-great episode mostly serving to set up a conspiracy we never hear more about .. not my favorite.

Chilli August 24th 07 00:05

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Having just seen it again yesterday .. STILL not my favourite. When I first saw it, 11 years ago when I was 11 (EGADS!), I was completely "WOW"-ed. Now I just notice how .. very 11 I was at the time.

B5 for me is unique not only in the fact that it's simply the most awesome TV show ever made, but in that it's a show I always trusted. I always knew there was a payoff coming.

Except for here. Yeah, payoff comes if one sees Bureau 13 as just another facette of Psi Corps. Nevertheless, Sheridan's "There is a spider in its web .. and I will find it, and kill it" is a very big promise that is never built on.

And mystery woman in San Diego. That she is never seen again actually makes sense - she'd be quite a rubbish secret operative if we kept seeing her. Still .. Talia's SHOCK! moment came off as extremely lame considering this - and considering that Talia only saw her in a year-old memory, where's the shock in her being dead?

A_M_Swallow August 24th 07 11:47

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilli (Post 306953)
{snip}and considering that Talia only saw her in a year-old memory, where's the shock in her being dead?

I do not think the Psi Cop woman was dead, I suspect that was just a cover story to hide her joining Bureau 13.

Chilli August 24th 07 12:31

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Neither do I, but I meant .. Talia's shock at seeing her listed as dead.

Sindatur August 24th 07 13:14

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
The reason there's no pay off is JMS had to drop the storyline because of real life concerns over the name (And Andrea being difficult to work with and having to be written out of the series)

Skander August 24th 07 20:20

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Gave it a C.

Lots of promises that were never followed up on. I'm not laying the blame on anyone's feet but its the reality of the situation and it detracts from the episode.

Still the ep had some redeeming features. Insight into Sheridan's various curiosities. Some would say his hobby of studying and seeking secret organizations figures prominently in the series and how he develops. Tidbits dropped here and there like Free Mars, personality manufacturing, etc.

KoshFan August 24th 07 21:18

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Yeah, the fact that Sheridan "collects secrets" explains how he knows about the Grey Council and can spot one of its members right off, when Sinclair knew very little.

Elipsis August 27th 07 02:00

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
B. I really dug the haunting aura of the possibility of black ops within Earthgov that hung over the episode.

maneth August 27th 07 11:52

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
It was an interesting episode. Not one of my favorites because we never find out what really happened with Bureau 13 after Horn's destruction.

Anybody else notice the tribute to Tron in the "computer being taken over by offensive program giving instructions to Horn" sequence?

Elipsis August 28th 07 01:58

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maneth (Post 307214)
It was an interesting episode. Not one of my favorites because we never find out what really happened with Bureau 13 after Horn's destruction.

Eh, we kind of do. I interpret it that Bureau 13 becomes less and less of a covert operation, and ultimately becomes part of mainstream earthgov (although by a different name of course).

maneth August 28th 07 19:35

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
That has to be inferred, though. There really isn't any conclusive proof.

Sindatur August 28th 07 20:50

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maneth (Post 307370)
That has to be inferred, though. There really isn't any conclusive proof.


I think considering the kind of activities they obviously engaged in with Talia and Horn, it makes sense to me that the less reputable parts of PsiCorps joined ranks with them, considering Garibaldi's reworking.

hypatia August 29th 07 04:26

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Elipsis (Post 307301)
Eh, we kind of do. I interpret it that Bureau 13 becomes less and less of a covert operation, and ultimately becomes part of mainstream earthgov (although by a different name of course).

I don't know, couldn't a powerful group do both? Keep their secret, well-funded department and send in the men and women you want in your puppet government?

I would think a secretive organization would hesitate to go openly public. They want their covert status to fall back on, in case something goes wrong with the puppets.

Just my thought. It is an interesting idea, though. It was a plot I had hoped would be mentioned again, if not resolved.

Cell January 31st 09 15:49

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Finally back with a new review,

http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/...babylon-5-206/

Estelyn May 27th 10 22:39

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
I thought this was a very interesting episode, with lots of foreshadowing: the Earth/Mars conflict (history repeats itself - it reminds me strongly of the American war for independence), Psi Corps subversive activity, and Talia Winters' upcoming fate, which is mirrored in the character of Abel.

I enjoyed the interaction between Winters and Garibaldi - obviously, the chemistry must have been good between the actors. He does a good job of helping her loosen up in this very tense situation, putting her welfare over his wishes.

I too wish that we could have seen more of Bureau 13, but according to JMS, there were issues of rights to that name. It would also have been interesting to meet the female Psi Corps character behind the scenes again later on.

KoshFan May 28th 10 02:15

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn (Post 361971)
I enjoyed the interaction between Winters and Garibaldi - obviously, the chemistry must have been good between the actors.

Up to a point! Did you know that those two were married for a while?

Estelyn May 28th 10 07:54

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Yes, I was aware of that - it would be interesting to hear at which point in the series their RL relationship began.

vacantlook May 28th 10 12:07

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Wikipedia says they were married from 1995 to 1997.

Dorvo April 19th 11 01:38

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
De gustibus non est disputandum. I strongly disliked the Talia character, but to be honest I'm not sure how much of it was Andrea Thompson's acting and how much of it was simply the way the character was written. She seemed to come in two flavors: tearful victim, and snarky bitch. I disliked both.

I far preferred Lyta, and I always much preferred Pat's acting to Andrea's; Pat had a warmth and genuineness that Andrea never achieved (tried for?). However, I think that as far as technical ability went, they were about on a level; neither was Royal Shakespeare Company material, but both were perfectly competent.

All that said, it's not surprising I rated the episode rather low, at a C. But that's strongly colored by personal preference for the characters, and the actresses who played them. I'm not at all pretending to any kind of definitive judgment.

Jade Jaguar April 19th 11 02:41

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Welcome to the board!

I didn't dislike Talia as much as you, but besides that, I agree with your observations. I do think that Andrea played Talia as JMS wrote, and wanted, her to be. Certainly not an ingratiating or likable character, but a strong one.

GKarsEye April 19th 11 14:04

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Quote:

She seemed to come in two flavors: tearful victim, and snarky bitch. I disliked both.
There's no reason to bring up my ex-girlfriends here.

Alioth May 12th 12 06:59

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 212355)
I would imagine the process of implanting a subpersonality into a person would require a lot more work than just a single person could put out.

In the Psi Corps trilogy we see Bester inserting "programming" into certain people he runs into, taking little time at all. Not sure if Garibaldi's was all that more sophisticated (the programming mainly enhanced his natural skeptic and paranoid tendencies, to where they would exceed his personal loyalty to close friends), as far as these telepathic operations go... but he had more time with him than he did with, for example, that thug who was extorting his landlord/semi-love interest (IIRC) in the books.

Lennier's Tears December 29th 15 20:13

Re: EpDis: A Spider In The Web
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 307022)
Yeah, the fact that Sheridan "collects secrets" explains how he knows about the Grey Council and can spot one of its members right off, when Sinclair knew very little.

That's a good point, I had never considered that :)

I quite like this episode. The "unfinished storyline" thing is a shame, but by itself, this episode is perfectly fine, I think. I generally like all the Mars storylines because there's so many shades of grey there, it's all very interesting. I like the Abel Horn character and the secret project stuff. I also quite like the Talia character, so I don't mind Talia-centric episodes.

Comments:
  • Is this the only episode that gives us a timeline for the colonization of Mars (Amanda Carter's great-grandfather was on the first ship). I guess I haven't paid close attention that.
  • "The Mars Problem" That's such an Earther way to put it. I love that someone thought to write it like that.
  • Garibaldi really is kind of creepy. I think I said this in a different episode discussion thread, but how much would it suck to be creeped on by the head of security on a space station? Sure, he doesn't actually do anything creepy, and he's perfectly nice to Talia, but she can't know that .. well, actually maybe she can :p But, I still think that's not a great move on his part.
  • I like how concerned Ivanova is about Talia when she hears about the murder/assault.
  • Is "Snakehead" just a general slur used to describe ANY alien? I used to think it refered to specific species.
  • Hey look, it's Zack!
  • Why did security not check inside Amanda Carter's quarters before letting Talia go in? You'd think a quick check inside would be standard procedure, and you'd also think that Garibaldi would want to make super duper extra sure Talia was safe.


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