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-   -   EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=7811)

vacantlook April 11th 05 23:39

EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Episode 2.03

Refresher Links:
The Lurker's Guide Main Page for The Geometry Of Shadows
The Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for The Geometry Of Shadows

deaded April 12th 05 00:17

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
A- because I didn't like the green and purple thing at all. It was just dumb for an intelligent spacefaring race.

Shaal Mayan April 12th 05 00:22

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
A Loved the intro of the technomages in the B5 universe .The Ivanova plotline however is definately a downer but not enough.

vacantlook April 12th 05 00:25

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Well, the Green-Purple contest was an longtime cultural occurance for the Drazi, and there are some cultural things that just stick around for ages on ages. It was a contest of a considerable degree of chaos; who do we know that espoused the wonders of chaos and fighting that may have one day long ago injected this contest into Drazi culture long before the Drazi became a spacefaring race? Interesting to think about it that way, I think.

RMcD April 12th 05 09:07

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
This is one ep I can't dis! Geometry of Shadows is an out and out classic.. Vintage B5. :cool:

KoshFan April 12th 05 13:34

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
I love it. Vir has some great lines; Elric has some great lines; Ivanova has some great lines... who am I to argue with greatness?

Springer April 12th 05 16:00

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
I thought Michael Ansara was excellent as the technomage, although during the part with Sheridan in the Zocolo its obvious he is reading from cue cards! Londo and Vir are great in this episode, very watchable. Londo is flirting with darkness but in this episode he very much has his 'light' persona despite the dark undertones of what Elric tells him. Its an intriguing contrast.

What lets it down for me is the Drazi plot. I've never really though that the Drazi were fleshed out as well as other species in B5, and I thought the green/purple thing was too simplified, and it made the Drazi look a bit dumb IMO. Still, Garibaldi coming to the rescue is a good moment.

aajay April 12th 05 16:07

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Liked all of it...even the green/purple conflice.
Another classic line comes near the end when Ivanova grabs the green scarf and the Drazi look befuddled cuz they are unsure if an "alien" can be green leader "rules still tied up in committee". Great line.
Was hoping to see more of the techno-mages in B5
Didn't know I had to wait until Crusade.

RW7427 April 12th 05 16:19

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
This in my opinion, is one of the best eps of season 2. :D

RMcD April 12th 05 16:37

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Quote:

A- because I didn't like the green and purple thing at all. It was just dumb for an intelligent spacefaring race.

I think there are two psychologically distinct but physically identical species of Drazi. One half are the dumb, narrow-minded, gullible zealots seen in Parliament of Dreams, this episode, Rumours Bargains and Lies, the Paragon of Animals, and many others. The other half are the noble and self-sacrificing Drazi as portrayed in Matters of Honour, A Call to Arms, Shadow Dancing, Intersections in Real Time (kind of) etc. There doesn't seem to be any such a thing as an in-between Drazi, they're either one or the other. :)

GKarsEye April 12th 05 16:58

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
I think it's quite possible to be both stupid and brave, narrow-minded and noble. At the end of the day, the Drazi are tough sons of bitches who you'd want at your back when the shit goes down, but they need to work on thinking things through a bit.

They're kind of opposite of the Minbari, who are elegant and seemingly sophisticated and "pure," but their weaknesses are the same as anyone else once you scratch the surface. The Drazi's weaknesses are obvious, but at the core of many is something worth respecting.

The purple/green thing is OK. Maybe kind of silly in concept but I just love watching it play out. One of Ivanova's better moments, IMO (and I'm not a fan) because she doesn't ham it up here as she usually does, even though there's plenty of opportunity for it.

I must be the only hardcore B5 fan that doesn't like technomages. They're a bit too sword 'n' sorcery D&D kind of stuff for Babylon 5.

B5obsessive April 12th 05 18:49

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Great ep. Susan's face after her promotion :lol:! I always feel like saying "Sorry girl, but a certain diplomatic assignment a couple months down the road is gonna make this look like sending a couple of five-year-olds to their rooms!" *cough*ActsofSacrifice*cough* Susan certainly develops a reputation for "alternative diplomacy techniques". And that Acme rescue is genius, I keep expecting to hear a toon organ in there! :lol:!

deaded April 13th 05 00:16

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Quote:

Quote:

A- because I didn't like the green and purple thing at all. It was just dumb for an intelligent spacefaring race.

I think there are two psychologically distinct but physically identical species of Drazi. One half are the dumb, narrow-minded, gullible zealots seen in Parliament of Dreams, this episode, Rumours Bargains and Lies, the Paragon of Animals, and many others. The other half are the noble and self-sacrificing Drazi as portrayed in Matters of Honour, A Call to Arms, Shadow Dancing, Intersections in Real Time (kind of) etc. There doesn't seem to be any such a thing as an in-between Drazi, they're either one or the other. :)

Ok, I'll buy that. We have the same thing with humans.
~One half are the dumb, narrow-minded, gullible zealots seen in Parliament of Dreams, this episode, Rumours Bargains and Lies, the Paragon of Animals, and many others~

Republicans.

~The other half are the noble and self-sacrificing Drazi as portrayed in Matters of Honour, A Call to Arms, Shadow Dancing, Intersections in Real Time (kind of) etc. ~

Democrats.

(sorry but it was just too easy)

Springer April 13th 05 08:29

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Quote:



I think there are two psychologically distinct but physically identical species of Drazi. One half are the dumb, narrow-minded, gullible zealots seen in Parliament of Dreams, this episode, Rumours Bargains and Lies, the Paragon of Animals, and many others. The other half are the noble and self-sacrificing Drazi as portrayed in Matters of Honour, A Call to Arms, Shadow Dancing, Intersections in Real Time (kind of) etc. There doesn't seem to be any such a thing as an in-between Drazi, they're either one or the other. :)

I'd forgotten about their appearances in Matters of Honour and Intersections in Real Time. Into the Fire also had one of the Drazi ships sacrificing itself to save the White Star 2 from one of the Shadow rockets. So yes, they possibly do have more characterisation than I realised, although when I think of Drazi the first thing I think of is purple/green, and I don't know if that's such a good thing.

vacantlook April 13th 05 16:30

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
One of the more prominent things about the Drazi that sticks in my mind from the show is their partnering with the Narn to bomb the hell out of Centauri Prime. (I don't know what that contributes to the conversation, but I felt like saying it.)

RW7427 April 13th 05 18:29

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Well, it shows that the Drazi had no qualms about kicking the Centauri when they were down because they competed with the Centauri for trade.

Cell November 2nd 08 21:29

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
I'm writing up my review of this episode right now, while at the same time my B5 reading has reached the first book of the TM Trilogy. In case I don't get to it before I finish writing the review, is it in book one or two of the trilogy where it's hinted at that the Shadows may have had a hand in the creation of the Drazi's green/purple idea?

Galahad November 2nd 08 21:51

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 206032)
One of the more prominent things about the Drazi that sticks in my mind from the show is their partnering with the Narn to bomb the hell out of Centauri Prime. (I don't know what that contributes to the conversation, but I felt like saying it.)

The thing that struck me most about that, was that we know the Drazi and the Narn don't get on. We at least get as much of a hint of that when Londo addresses Earthgov in Rising Star.

It was a classic example of the enemy of my enemy.

Cell November 16th 08 17:14

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
My review,

http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/...babylon-5-203/

RommieSG November 18th 08 03:07

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Just got done watching this one today. Had to give it an A.

Ivanova, freshly promoted to Commander, and given the Drazi situation. One of my most favorite problems on B5, because it's just so absurd.... "Green!.....Purple!" I laughed so hard....

Michael Ansara was just another of the 'Old Guard' of Science Fiction actors to come aboard almost as a 'blessing' of Babylon 5, and his performance did not disappoint as Elric. I almost wish his role was bigger in the episode. I have to wonder if maybe things would have gone different if he were the Technomage used in 'A Call to Arms' and 'Crusade'. Well they say that hindsight is 20-20.

And of course, Garibaldi being Garibaldi. Can't ask for much more from an episode. Loved it. :)

G'Kar February 4th 09 22:45

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Gave it an A due to the interesting arc significance found in this episode and that of Michael Ansara's performance. A very nice entry into the world of Babylon 5.

RW7427 February 11th 09 14:42

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Yeah, I agree that Michael Ansara made a good Elric.

KoshN February 11th 09 16:28

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RW7427 (Post 336059)
Yeah, I agree that Michael Ansara made a good Elric.


He certainly has the voice of a Technomage.

RW7427 February 11th 09 19:31

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Yeah, when I read the Technomage trilogy, I tried to imagine his voice while I was reading Elric's lines. :lol:

G'Kar February 11th 09 22:50

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RW7427 (Post 336088)
Yeah, when I read the Technomage trilogy, I tried to imagine his voice while I was reading Elric's lines. :lol:

You're not the only one.

KoshN February 12th 09 00:22

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by G'Kar (Post 336090)
You're not the only one.

I didn't "try." I "heard" all of the characters played by on B5 and Crusade saying their lines, as well as some others (e.g. Kell by Frank Langella, Elizar by Eric Etebari, Razeel by Juliet Landau, etc.)

vacantlook February 12th 09 01:45

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Ooo, Juliet Landau would be wicked cool as a techno-mage.

KoshN February 12th 09 21:56

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 336096)
Ooo, Juliet Landau would be wicked cool as a techno-mage.

Especially as the more than slightly crazy, homicidal Razeel (Elizar's sister). A lot like Drucilla.

Estelyn May 26th 10 23:11

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
I must say, I would have liked to see more of the technomages in this episode - I found their part of the plot weighed less than the Drazi conflict. However, there were several Lord of the Rings references there that I very much enjoyed. The "Do not try the patience of wizards" is a wonderful variation on a great original quote. Also, Vir's encounter with the fiery monster reminded me of Gandalf and the Balrog - I almost expected Vir to say, "You shall not pass"! It was nice to see his bravery in the face of apparent perceived danger. I also chuckled over his mixed-up metaphorical speech on the currents.

Another Centauri is introduced who is significant for much of the story in the next seasons - Lord Refa. His obvious scheming is almost as creepy as Morden's polite attitude. He repeats what Londo said to Morden about the Centauris' "rightful place in the galaxy" - why do they perceive themselves in a role which they really never had? Is it a "big frog in a small pond" syndrome?

I like seeing Garibaldi getting checked by the doctor - this is not a sci-fi universe with instant healing. It takes time, and he has scars.

Most annoying detail - the orange blossom that Elric gives Sheridan. Ansara (whom I remember well from Star Trek) acts wonderfully, and I would have liked to see more of him, but of course he speaks the lines given to him by the author. I hope we lose all those orange references soon.

JoeD80 May 26th 10 23:27

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
What's wrong with oranges? I love oranges. I wish there were more orange references. Anyway, there is a further point Joe is going for here in that Sheridan should start out in a happy-go-lucky space that slowly descends into the hardened version of Sheridan later.

KoshFan May 27th 10 00:10

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn (Post 361916)
Another Centauri is introduced who is significant for much of the story in the next seasons - Lord Refa. His obvious scheming is almost as creepy as Morden's polite attitude. He repeats what Londo said to Morden about the Centauris' "rightful place in the galaxy" - why do they perceive themselves in a role which they really never had? Is it a "big frog in a small pond" syndrome?

Once upon a time the Centauri really did dominate -- but it was ages ago, so it would be like the Austro-Hungarians suddenly rising up and saying, "We should rule the Balkans again!" Not exactly a recent claim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn (Post 361916)
Most annoying detail - the orange blossom that Elric gives Sheridan. Ansara (whom I remember well from Star Trek) acts wonderfully, and I would have liked to see more of him, but of course he speaks the lines given to him by the author. I hope we lose all those orange references soon.

It makes a lot more sense when you realize that Sheridan's been out on long-range patrol, away from fresh food (and basically everything) for two years. He's obsessing because he's been out of contact.

Estelyn May 27th 10 07:47

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
I know, both of you are right, but it still gets on my nerves when there's too much of it, and that effect is cumulative.

Alioth July 17th 11 08:26

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
The Technomage Trilogy describes many of the events of this episode, plus some more things going on on B5 we don't see... and of course what happened immediately after their departure*. I had noticed in the episode that Elric seemed to have a rather pained expression on his face the whole time--the Trilogy explains why, and just exactly how pained he was what with the loss of his Place of Power (which became a large part of his being, suddenly ripped out) and the very dire circumstances of the Technomages' journey, and the terrible sacrifice that was to be made.... I wonder if Ansara's acting there was made with this background in mind (did JMS have some of this backstory in mind then), or if the writer of the trilogy noticed this acting too and created an explanation for it. But given these circumstances and goings-on behind the scenes, he actually handled his interactions with people with a lot of strength and grace.

And of course Londo was just so completely and mercilessly exposed here--probably the first real cold hard assessment of his character we see made to his face or even hinted at really. Everyone else saw him as a buffoon (except G'Kar who had mostly personal grudges with him, and the grudge of his people toward Centauri in general), but Elric was the first person we've seen who squarely assessed the serious flaws in Londo's character from an objective standpoint, and took the danger he and his actions posed seriously. (In the Trilogy his assessment is even more scathing, because of just how much of his activities he and/or his order through their spy devices have been able to observe.) I for one found it kind of refreshing, because while some of what Londo did on the show to that point made me laugh out loud and want to like him, I was already seeing him as a liar and a cheat who took paths of least resistance no matter what cost to others--or even himself, unreflective as he was--and no one as yet had called him on it. But he would learn what Elric warned him of, the hard way... and that would make me more sympathetic of him.

There's this poignant exchange:
"I hear billions of voices calling your name."
"My followers?"
"No, your victims."

And of course Londo didn't make a good first impression on Sheridan either (is this the first direct interaction we see between the two?). Come to think of it, I don't think they ever really became friends (his statements in "Objects at Rest" aside), and Sheridan was a bit more wary of Londo than others were, from that point.




* This I kind of had a problem with in the books--if the [SPOILER] explosion of one of the ships occurred right outside Babylon 5 pre-jump, surely there wouldn't have been the quiet ending to the episode we saw. The Trilogy writer should have had the explosion occur after the jump, in hyperspace or at the reentry to normal space wherever the next waypoint was, to fit better with the episode. [/SPOILER]

Lennier's Tears December 24th 15 06:01

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
The Geometry of Shadows is the first Babylon 5 episode I ever (sort of, partially) watched. I happened to catch part of it on the TV one night, but I was busy with other stuff so I didn't really see much of it, and it wasn't until later that I really got into it and started watching from the beginning on VHS. Still, I remember which episode it was, and I'm sort of fond of it for that reason, as well as the technomage thing.

I like the technomages, although I have so many questions about them that are never answered. I think I posted about that in some of the Crusade threads. Maybe if I read the books/comics I would know, but I have as of yet not gotten my hands on any technomage material.

I like the technomage aesthetics, especially Elric's outfit and general look. I like the general sort of magical quality about them.

I like the Centauri stuff that's going on in this episode as well. I always enjoy an appearance by the Refa character. He was great.

The purple/green stuff ... I have SO many questions about that, too. This is one of those episodes where I sit and watch and wonder how the Drazi are technologically advanced enough to go into space. But, that aside, the green/purple thing is a long tradition that is repeated every five years. It apparently transcends kinship ties or any kind of social grouping, which is REALLY weird. I understand that they are aliens, and thus shouldn't be expected to be organized in a way that makes sense to humans, but ... we've seen their planet, their cities (well not yet at this point in the story, but we will), and those cities are remarkably similar to human cities, their society doesn't seem all that different from ours. I just don't see this green/purple thing working at all, especially when they start actually killing each other. How coincidental that that starts happening the one year they have taken the fight to Babylon 5.....

All that said, the scene in council chambers, where Ivanova is trying to mediate, and wants to understand the nature of the conflict ...the facial expressions on those Drazi when they say "Purple!!" and "Green!" as though that explains everything ... still makes me laugh every time.

Stuff and things:
  • Is Londo's room fancier than it used to be?
  • Vir's offended look when Refa implies he and Londo can't speak freely in front of him is pretty great, and is followed by his look of absolute horror when Londo and Refa discuss overthrowing their government.
  • Why does Earthgov have any business meddling in the affairs of the technomages as they are leaving? They can control who immigrates into their jurisdiction, but why do they expect to be able to control emigration?
  • Why didn't Ivanova's page go through when she tried to call security?
  • Lou Welch fell for that fake call from Ivanova's link?? They really do need Garibaldi around the place ...
  • Does Garibaldi have a thing for the mid-20th century? Why is he so familiar with door-to-door sales pitches that ask for the "lady of the house"? He does also seem to like 20th century cartoons, so I'm going to go with "yes, yes he does" :p

Wulf December 28th 15 15:31

Re: EpDis: The Geometry Of Shadows
 
The technomages are better left to the imagination than explored. The book series following Londo 20 years after the tv series ended had technomages and they were actually kind of lame. I'd assume they get better treatment in whichever book series was actually about them, but.... meh.


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