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-   -   EpDis: Points Of Departure (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=7726)

vacantlook March 23rd 05 21:41

EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Beginning season two!

Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Points Of Departure
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Points Of Departure

Shaal Mayan March 23rd 05 21:56

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
I give this one a B .Good opener for the 2 second season establishes the minbari hatred of Sheridan .

vacantlook March 23rd 05 21:59

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
One thing that really annoys me about the episode is how many times characters repeat the "honor and death" bit. It was too repetative to me in attempts to illuminate Sheridan's thought process in figuring things out. I would have much prefered it done more subtle.

RMcD March 24th 05 01:00

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Nah, I don't like the Minbari-centric episodes much.

And this one quite sensibly doesn't resolve any of the cliffhangers from Chrysalis and just focuses on introducing Sheridan. But I think the whole 'Sheridan is not Sinclair because the Minbari hate him' thing is a bit overdone. And his fetish for oranges and showing his teeth too. Still, it's amazing how much his character changes over the years.

Also, this episode commits the cardinal sin (in my book) of going through all the buildup to a battle that then doesn't happen, or happens offscreen, or in your imagination. That used to be DS9's favourite budget-saving trick..

This may be Jerry Doyle's favourite episode :) but not mine.. I'd still give it a C, though.

vacantlook March 25th 05 01:34

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Two things I did quite like in this episode:

One, I liked Lennier's part. He got to have several different emtional states, and he got to bust out the revelation of why the Minbari surrendered at the Battle of the Line, which is something quite significant for a minor main character, which he had more or less been to that point.

Two, I liked Hedronn's conversation with Sheridan in Sheridan's office. "I would tell you -- if I recognized your authority." Burnt! I think I've enjoyed Robin Sachs in every alien role he's playe don Babylon 5.

RW7427 March 25th 05 17:02

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
I gave it a C because I don't care for the actress that plays Sheridan's sister. :lol:

B5obsessive March 25th 05 20:06

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Like. Like lots. Some great setup for John, showing his strengths in tactics and reasoning. His "Captain Smiley" thing is important too, as that grin is going to get *well and truly* knocked off over the next 4 years. :devil: You must admit, Johnny's in for a rough ride! We are also very cleverly put in the same place as the crew, as this new guy is sprung on us all of a sudden, and we neither know him or if we can trust him. And for some weird reason, those
"A coccoon? Like a moth or a butterfly?"
"Yes sir. 'Bout yay high."
"Interesting pace you have here."
lines just crack me up every time! :lol:

RMcD March 26th 05 12:28

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Quote:

I gave it a C because I don't care for the actress that plays Sheridan's sister. :lol:

That's okay then, cause she's in Revelations! :D

KoshFan March 26th 05 16:09

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
A few excellent lines, such as the aforementioned one about the cocoon and the "paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate" one.

Personally I really enjoy Sheridan, and so even though he seems a bit of a puppydog with his smiling and oranges, you also see his resourcefulness, his courage, and his introspection here. And frankly it's just a bit of a comfort to have him aboard -- he's the Captain!

RW7427 March 27th 05 18:45

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Quote:

Quote:

I gave it a C because I don't care for the actress that plays Sheridan's sister. :lol:

That's okay then, cause she's in Revelations! :D

Oh yeah. **Hits self in the head.** I knew that! :o :lol:

Springer April 3rd 05 20:21

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Hello, I'm new to the forum, so be kind!

Points of Departure: I was hovering between a B and a C for this episode. Compared to the rest of season 2, it feels very different, and to be honest I found that many of the season openers had a different feel to them. Its hard to explain- maybe its just the series trying to find its feet again at the start of the new season.

The first time you see this episode it feels massively significant, what with the arrival of Sheridan and Lennier revealing to him and Ivanova what happened to Sinclair at the Battle of the Line. But now, looking back, it doesn't feel that important.

In this episode we see one of the big EA destroyers for the first time- I really like those ships. And Sheridan takes a huge risk at the end when interpreting what the Minbari captain had said, I suppose to show that he has a tactical brain and can 'think outside the box' but it doesn't quite come off as convincing to me.

RW7427 April 3rd 05 21:56

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Quote:

Points of Departure: I was hovering between a B and a C for this episode. Compared to the rest of season 2, it feels very different, and to be honest I found that many of the season openers had a different feel to them. Its hard to explain- maybe its just the series trying to find its feet again at the start of the new season.


Yeah, I know what you're saying. This first ep of season 2 is kinda like a whole new show. There's no more Commander Sinclair, but a Captain Sheridan instead. That in itself gives a new feel to season 2. Plus Delenn is in her cocoon. After she comes out, she's not the same Delenn any more. Plus Garibaldi is in Medlab with a PPG wound.

Shaal Mayan April 3rd 05 23:49

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Quote:

After she comes out, she's not the same Delenn any more


Delenn isn't the same character peiod once Sinclair leaves and Sheridan comes in .

RMcD April 4th 05 23:39

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Quote:

This first ep of season 2 is kinda like a whole new show.

Some visual things change as well.. The blue earth force uniforms gain a red trim and flight wings. Garibaldi's grey uniform gains a green trim and flight wings. (The changes cause a slight anomaly in the continuity, since the EA uniforms in In the Beginning feature these trims and badges..)

Some of the sets are also redesigned, specifically the corridor walls have a new colour and texture, and C&C gets a facelift. It really is a completely different show..

GKarsEye April 5th 05 15:51

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Man, I never notice stuff like that.

Chilli August 16th 07 21:51

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
I love this episode for the way it really drives in a very important plot point of B5 that way too many people seem to forget: The Minbari suck.

So you're fighting a "holy war" over a misunderstanding, that you KNOW to be a misunderstanding. Your holy war isn't anything more than genocide, effectively. Somewhere along the line, one human manages to defend himself and actually hurts your war machine - he doesn't even injure any civilians.

So what do you do, as a species completely obsessed with honor?

You go "boo hoo, starkiller, starkiller!" and spend several decades whining. What a bunch of pisspots. Reminds me of the asshole German that assaulted my mother a few years ago for all the pain Germany went through at the US' hands in World War II. Want to avoid pain and suffering? Don't wage unnecessary wars.

Also, all this crap of how MInbari never lie and never hurt eachother .. like hell they don't. They're just better at it than everybody else.

Oh, and the only thing that made them willing to stop pointless genocide? Noticing that humans have Minbari souls, which is a load of crap anyways. What pure motives...

hypatia August 17th 07 06:35

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Yea. Very good points. :)

I don't think there really was a race or a character that didn't have a dark side and a light side, so to speak. The "seemingly sacred" Minbari included.

I wonder, with people being who they are, enough of a word got about among Humans that Valen was really Sinclair, gone back through time with station B4. They'd be stunned to know the race that gave the Minbari such an edge in technology was... us. :D

I know the Minbari already had spacefleets able to survive space battles. But wouldn't that "sneak peek" at future technology help spur what they already knew?

Maybe not, and they were just advanced because they evolved earlier than we, and the Vorlons gave them a lot of help. But I've always wondered just how much the Minbari learned technologically from Sinclar, as well as what they learned about organizing themselves into some kind of an effective government.

Babylon5fan07 August 17th 07 07:53

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Very nice intro to Captain John Sheridan (Bruce Boxleitner) I really love this episode even though a whole lot doesn't happen until the very next episode Revelations. Minor complaint on this thread.. I was going to vote but it's shown as Quality of Mercy? I love Sinclair but Bruce Boxlietner has a way of putting a smile on everyone's face even non Babylon 5 fans :) Garibaldi still in coma..I can't wait til he's out of it ;)

Alex

Chilli August 17th 07 11:22

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 306491)
Yea. Very good points. :)

I don't think there really was a race or a character that didn't have a dark side and a light side, so to speak. The "seemingly sacred" Minbari included.

Yes, indeed. But at least the other races seem quite aware of that. The Humans, Narns and Centauri never pretend to not have their own agenda. The Minbari, on the other hand, go around with all the pseudo-pacifist holier-than-thou crap, which really makes them the biggest creep of the lot - with the exception of the Vorlons, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 306491)
I wonder, with people being who they are, enough of a word got about among Humans that Valen was really Sinclair, gone back through time with station B4. They'd be stunned to know the race that gave the Minbari such an edge in technology was... us. :D

Well .. the Minbari were keeping this knowledge under a pretty tight lid - though I forget exactly what happens in the fourth season here. Not sure if humans would have ever gotten to hear about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 306491)
I know the Minbari already had spacefleets able to survive space battles. But wouldn't that "sneak peek" at future technology help spur what they already knew?

This is the kind of stuff which makes time travel stories headachy.

I don't think human tech from the "present" was much ahead of Minbari tech from a thousand years ago. The Minbari would have come out losers of the last shadow war without Babylon 4 and Sinclair, though, and would not have been the smug major power to attempt to erradicate humans thousand years later. And no Earth-Minbari war .. no Babylon project.

No Minbari victory --> no Babylon 4.
No Babylon 4 --> no Minbari victory

It all kind of works out in the end if you see time as circular, and assume that the Minbari victory, and B4's trip back in time, were "always there" .. or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babylon5fan07 (Post 306496)
I was going to vote but it's shown as Quality of Mercy?

There is a bug with poll titles on older polls. It is only the titles, though, you can vote normally.

snockit June 17th 08 17:28

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilli (Post 306503)
No Minbari victory --> no Babylon 4.
No Babylon 4 --> no Minbari victory

Re-watching the series again, and reading up on the comments again. So, read this and thought to correct it :)

It was established that the Minbari win the war 1000 years ago without B4, however, at the cost of more Vorlons / troops, therefore they have the inability to survive the war that is to come ... hence the foreshadowing in Season 1 about B5 being destroyed. That was the future that was going to be, if B4 wasn't sent back in time.

That is one thing I really liked about B5, time travel was used, but it wasn't to crazy in its circular logic.

S.

Cell October 31st 08 20:23

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
It's time for more Babylon 5, thus kicks off my reviews of season 2,

Points Of Departure
http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/...babylon-5-201/

Estelyn May 24th 10 22:51

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Having seen all five seasons of B5 recently, and now rewatching them again, it's interesting to see Sheridan being introduced in this episode. He looks so young and carefree! (Mind you, I like him better toward the end of the series.) He comes across as annoyingly smiling, optimistic, and with that ridiculous obsession with oranges, but also astute in his assessment of the tactical situation with the Minbari ship. I get the feeling that we viewers are seeing him with Ivanova's eyes, and she knew him previously, and we trust her judgement, since we know her, so we tend to trust him more quickly than would otherwise be the case.

It's a bit surprising to have Lennier clear up the mystery about the reason for the Minbari ending the war so early in the season, right in the first episode! However, the chrysalis is kept a mystery, so it's not all solved at once.

I loved seeing Ivanova handling things with her usual energy and sarcasm, yet still being relieved that she didn't have to keep leading the station on her own.

The Minbari are shown to be flawed, which is a good thing, and the rift between religious and warrior castes is again mentioned. I agree with those who wondered about their judgmental attitude toward Sheridan for achieving the only victory in the war - why attack someone for doing what they had been doing the whole time?!

I miss Sinclair, but enjoyed reading about his further development in the book "To Dream in the City of Sorrows". I thought JMS did a good job of finding a plausible reason for the change and of giving him a great role in the future - and in the past, of course!

JoeD80 May 24th 10 23:09

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn (Post 361824)
It's a bit surprising to have Lennier clear up the mystery about the reason for the Minbari ending the war so early in the season, right in the first episode!

He didn't mention that Sinclair was Valen though; he only mentioned that Minbari souls were in human bodies. It's also not yet evident that Sinclair went back in time which is how he was Valen in the first place. All the pieces for solving this mystery are not in place in this episode, even though we learn a bit. According to Joe, learning what Lennier says here was originally going to occur in episode 3 of season 2 if Sinclair was still there, so it still would have been early in the season either way.

vacantlook May 25th 10 05:54

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeD80 (Post 361826)
He didn't mention that Sinclair was Valen though; he only mentioned that Minbari souls were in human bodies. It's also not yet evident that Sinclair went back in time which is how he was Valen in the first place. All the pieces for solving this mystery are not in place in this episode, even though we learn a bit. According to Joe, learning what Lennier says here was originally going to occur in episode 3 of season 2 if Sinclair was still there, so it still would have been early in the season either way.

Well, interestingly about that, it wasn't until Michael O'Hare decided to leave the show that jms decided to make Sinclair be Valen. The memo, or outline, or whatever you want to call it that got released in the bonus volume of the Babylon 5 scriptbooks reveals that the original plan for the show never included the Sinclair=Valen element. In that original plan, no one went back in time at all: Babylon 4 was taken forward in time to replace Babylon 5 after it had been blown up by the Minbari after the Warrior Caste had expelled the Grey Council from the Minbari government.

Estelyn May 25th 10 15:43

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
That's interesting information about the original plan for B4! I hadn't read that yet.

One thing I noticed about Lennier at the beginning of this season is that he looks changed - more serious, less innocent. Do you think his concern for Delenn's change has affected him in this way? It seems that he has a sense of protectiveness toward her, and of course during her time in the cocoon he is the top-ranking Minbari on the station, so carries the weight of additional responsibility.

KoshFan May 25th 10 15:43

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
And now that you mention it, I remember most of our information on Valen coming later, after S1...

Sindatur May 25th 10 16:05

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 361844)
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeD80 (Post 361826)
He didn't mention that Sinclair was Valen though; he only mentioned that Minbari souls were in human bodies. It's also not yet evident that Sinclair went back in time which is how he was Valen in the first place. All the pieces for solving this mystery are not in place in this episode, even though we learn a bit. According to Joe, learning what Lennier says here was originally going to occur in episode 3 of season 2 if Sinclair was still there, so it still would have been early in the season either way.

Well, interestingly about that, it wasn't until Michael O'Hare decided to leave the show that jms decided to make Sinclair be Valen. The memo, or outline, or whatever you want to call it that got released in the bonus volume of the Babylon 5 scriptbooks reveals that the original plan for the show never included the Sinclair=Valen element. In that original plan, no one went back in time at all: Babylon 4 was taken forward in time to replace Babylon 5 after it had been blown up by the Minbari after the Warrior Caste had expelled the Grey Council from the Minbari government.

Thanks VL, that is news to me. I always thought Sinclair was always destined to be Valen (but, at the end of the Series). Then JMS started thinking about how he had way too much on Sinclair's plate to be believable for just 1 character, so he decided to bring in another character about half way through the Series (Sheridan) and have Sinclair become Valen mid way through the Series. Then, when Michael O'Hare left after first season, JMS simply sped up the timeline of bringing Sheridan into the mix, but, left Sinclair becoming Valen at mid way through the Series.

JoeD80 May 25th 10 17:21

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 361844)
Well, interestingly about that, it wasn't until Michael O'Hare decided to leave the show that jms decided to make Sinclair be Valen.

Not quite right. According to Joe the Valen plot was thought up about 2/3 of the way through the first season. That's why Delenn says in Voice in the Wilderness that Sinclair has a destiny. At the end of season one, plans were still there to have Sinclair in place. As late as April (filming of season one wrapped in March) Joe mentioned Sinclair's brother arriving soon. The talks with Michael O'Hare didn't occur until the hiatus between seasons, and the official switch of commanding officer was in the May 1st memo. In the script book Joe talks about having Valen return from 20 years ahead, or having to take Babylon 4 in to the future in case of cancellation in the 3rd season. It seems from this description that he had the Valen idea at least as early as Babylon Squared (which would be slightly past 2/3 in).

Lennier's Tears December 22nd 15 02:42

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
I like Points of Departure. Yea, it's kind of introduction-ey, but still, I think it has a lot going for it. Not the least of which is the introduction of Sheridan. I'm still kind of sad that there is VERY little Sinclair after this, but I do like the Sheridan character, and I like the introduction of his character here. I'm apparently the only person here who finds his odd food obsessions amusing/entertaining. It reminds me a little bit of Agent Cooper on Twin Peaks. I guess Sheridan gets over it after he gets used to having access to stuff he didn't have on the Agamemnon, though he does always appear to have oranges in his quarters in later episodes.

Anyway, the Trigati stuff is pretty much your general "angry Warrior Caste Minbari" plotline, except now it illustrates the whole Sheridan Starkiller thing, which works alright.

I like that we're suddenly getting a lot more information about the Battle of the Line and the Minbari secrets surrounding the surrender and all that, explained by Lennier, no less. Then Lennier gives us (the audience) a teeny little bit more of the story than he gave the human characters on the show, by way of telling Delenn's cocoon, which is less clunky than some other exposition scenes and it would make anyone all curious about "the two halves of our souls uniting against the coming darkness".



But, all that aside, can we talk about the opening credits?? The opening credits on the DVD set I have, show post-cocoon Delenn. It bothers me immensely, and I'm pretty sure that the VHS set didn't show her until AFTER the reveal in Revelations. Ever since I've gotten the DVDs, when I watch with someone new to the show (it's happened a few times), I make a huge effort to distract them during the opening credits for the first two episodes of Season 2 because I don't want that reveal spoilered. Amazingly, that has actually worked :p

Stuff and things:
  • "We don't harm our own kind. We never have". NEVER? Are we going to pretend those pre-Valen years didn't happen? :p
  • Why does everyone walk into Delenn's quarters like that? Also, is the cocoon in her bedroom?
  • Why/how does Clarke know about the Minbari surrender / soul thing.

Springer December 23rd 15 12:43

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
I can't remember what was on the VHS, but when it first aired on TV the first two episodes of season 2 definitely had season 1 Delenn in the credits. Just another reason why the DVDs suck.

Regarding how Clark knows, the JMS-written first issue of the comic explains this a little bit. (Spoilers, I guess.) After Chrysalis, Sinclair was recalled to Earth, and in the comic he goes to Earthdome and meets both Clark and Rathenn, who explains everything to him. Clark says he only found out about it when he took office, but that EarthGov had known at the time what had happened to Sinclair and had given permission for the Minbari to wipe his memory.

I think I'm right in saying that issue actually came out before Points of Departure aired, in the US? Although I remember buying it from the local comic shop, I'm sure I didn't read it until afterwards. Probably the best issue of the comic.

Lennier's Tears December 26th 15 06:23

Re: EpDis: Points Of Departure
 
That's a perfectly reasonable explanation, regarding the Clark thing. It makes perfect sense for him to be informed about all Earth's secrets upon becoming its president. It's maybe a little weird that Rathenn would be there when Sheridan is informed, but OK :)


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