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vacantlook January 24th 05 23:04

EpDis: Legacies
 
Next.

Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Legacies
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Legacies

vacantlook January 24th 05 23:09

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
I thought "Legacies" was pretty good. It was a good introduction to Neroon, who is one of my favorite reoccuring characters. I think the story is a good early piece of the conflict between the Religious and Warrior castes of Minbari. It is interesting to me to note that the mother's side takes precidence in Minbari society. And we also get that great piece of early foreshadowing when Neroon says to Sinclair, "You talk like a Minbari, Commander."

Jade Jaguar January 25th 05 00:59

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
We also get the results of an analysis of a Pak' mara's stomach contents!

KoshFan January 25th 05 09:11

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
A solid episode -- but it should have come after Babylon Squared, since Delenn uses the triluminary to freeze the guards. (Which, incidentally, tells us interesting things about the triluminary's powers, a side of things I've rarely seen examined.) Slight continuity error.

Also, how the heck did Sinclair manage to subdue Neroon in a fair fight? Marcus couldn't handle the guy!

Other than that, though, a great introduction to the Minbari warrior caste and all the problems it brings with it -- and in particular Neroon, who pretty much embodies his caste until near the very end.

sleepy_shadow January 25th 05 09:21

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
Quote:

Also, how the heck did Sinclair manage to subdue Neroon in a fair fight? Marcus couldn't handle the guy!

Well, it has been stated that the fellow had been fasting, for something like a long while.

I also have a guess about Minbari night vision being next to nothing. For which the questions like "will you follow me into darkness". If one saw properly, one wouldn't need to ask.

GKarsEye January 25th 05 09:50

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
IIRC, this is also the episode where the teenage girl is found to be a telepath and everyone fights over her, telling us a lot about how various races and factions deal with teeps and intensifying the conflict between Ivanova and Talia. Pretty clever plot device, but the girl was annoying.

Sinclair beat Neroon because it was a grappling street fight, not a skill-match like Marcus with the pike, so the two aren't comparable.

The next interaction the two would have take place in a comic I haven't read and a novel I have read (To Dream in the City of Sorrows). In these stories Neroon is framing or persecuting or attacking Sinclair and basically giving him a hard time, so if those are canon, the hint of goodwill and respect between them that we see in this ep doesn't last.

RW7427 January 25th 05 10:12

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
I like this ep. Good viewing indeed! :)

PillowRock January 25th 05 10:39

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
Quote:

It is interesting to me to note that the mother's side takes precidence in Minbari society.

Was that ever made clear? My memory is that the line was ambiguous as to whether the precidence referred to was mother-over-father or religous-over-warrior.

vacantlook January 25th 05 15:06

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
Well the exchange was (as best my memory serves):

NEROON: He is warrior caste by right of his father.

DELENN: And religious caste by right of his mother; you know which takes precidence.

Now, given the structure of that exchange, I don't see the point in bringing up his parents if the argument is over which of the castes someone in Minbari society belongs to over the other. I take the exchange to be that Neroon is trying to say that because Bremmer's father was warrior caste, that Bremmer himself should be treated in death as one of the warrior caste is, but Delenn interjects saying that because Bremmer's mother was religious caste, with one's mother's side taking precidence, that Bremmer's death should be conducted under religious caste guidelines.

vacantlook January 25th 05 15:09

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
Quote:

...but it should have come after Babylon Squared, since Delenn uses the triluminary to freeze the guards.

I remember thinking about this as I watched "Legacies" a few weeks ago and then continued on to finish watching out the rest of season one. I can't remember now, but there was something about "Legacies" that made me think that despite the use of the triluminary to stun the guards, that the story couldn't take place before "Babylon Squared," but for the life of me I can't remember what it was now. It was enough that as I watched I started thinking, well, maybe what they used to sun the guards wasn't actually a triluminary but another device that the Minbari just manufactured to look like a triluminary. I guess it's just a part of discontinuity that just can't be realigned to the rest of the story.

vacantlook January 25th 05 15:10

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
Quote:

...but the girl was annoying.

Yeah, was she ever!

PillowRock January 25th 05 17:03

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
Caste (generally speaking) comes from your parents' caste. What that exchange is still vague about is whether the rule for parents from different castes is:


If one parent is Religous that takes precidence of the other parent's Warrior status (which in turn would likely take precidence over Worker, given most of the attitudes that we see during the series).

Or

The mother's always takes precidence.


Either one has to do with parents and makes mentioning them relevent.

KoshFan January 25th 05 19:08

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
Well, I think according to the Lurker's Guide Legacies was originally intended to air after B Squared but for some reason they needed to move it -- I think so "A Voice in the Wilderness" would have a better airing time.

B5_Obsessed January 26th 05 12:21

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
Quote:

Well, I think according to the Lurker's Guide Legacies was originally intended to air after B Squared but for some reason they needed to move it -- I think so "A Voice in the Wilderness" would have a better airing time.

I believe there were a few times when they altered the airing to accomodate the completion of the heavier FX laden episodes. A Voice in the Wilderness definitely qualifies. For Season 1, it was very heavy on FX.

PillowRock January 26th 05 13:56

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
There were also a few times in the first and second seasons when episodes got swapped purely because of PTEN's fairly odd pattern of when new episodes aired and when reruns aired. Either they wanted to start a run of new eps with a bang, or finish a run of new eps with something of teaser to bring people back later, or they didn't want a 2-parter split with 2 months between part 1 and part 2, or whatever.

Shaal Mayan February 2nd 05 17:06

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
I thought it was excellant with a good introduction to the character of Neroon and seeing Talia and Ivanova square off on the fate of a young teep .Makes this one of my favs and because a few glimpses of minbari funearls at least among the warrior caste.

Cell September 3rd 08 22:06

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/...babylon-5-117/

Estelyn May 20th 10 12:28

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
I just checked to see who wrote this episode - I was pretty sure it wasn't JMS. Certainly Delenn has a darker side and is stronger and more dangerous than she appears, but she seems to be out of character in this story. Being so fanatic about an issue that she lets others take the blame and endangers the whole station, even to the point of risking a new war, just does not conform with her actions before and after this episode. The whole idea of serving others, which she preaches, does not go with letting others suffer for her actions. Of course we see enough characters in and around B5 who don't practice what they preach, but I don't see Delenn as one of them.

I too went "What the...?!" when the ship approached the station - the open gunports tradition of the Minbari should be known to EarthForces by now. Why the panicky surprise?

Though he picks a fight every time he has an opportunity, I like Neroon, who is introduced here. There's something about him that makes him believable as a member of the warrior caste and interesting as a character. Part of that is his sense of humour - subtle, but winning. We see so few humorous Minbari.

I also like the way Talia and Ivanova's relationship progresses. Though they squabble about the destiny of the young telepath, it seems more like two parents disagreeing about how to raise their kid - I don't get a feeling of animosity anymore. And like parents, they let their protegé go when she makes her own decision.

JoeD80 May 20th 10 20:55

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn (Post 361689)
I too went "What the...?!" when the ship approached the station - the open gunports tradition of the Minbari should be known to EarthForces by now. Why the panicky surprise?

Probably because the Minbari knew by now that it was a threatening gesture to the humans so it caught them off-guard. The Warrior Caste were making a deliberate decision here and probably don't normally approach the station this way, even if it is their tradition.

KoshFan May 21st 10 01:33

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
Yeah, the easiest fan-wank is that the Minbari haven't been coming in with open ports in the past ten years -- but Neroon was looking for a fight, or at the least was unwilling to bend tradition even an inch for mere humans.

JoeD80 May 22nd 10 15:45

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 361714)
Yeah, the easiest fan-wank

You could say it like this, but this is supported by the show on-screen in the movie In the Beginning; Dukhat says "with who's authority?!" when he's informed that they are approaching the humans with gun ports open. It's clear that he didn't think the warrior caste tradition was always the best way to go.

Lennier's Tears October 11th 15 18:17

Re: EpDis: Legacies
 
I like this one alright ... I think it's fairly average overall, but it does have some exciting things in it. The introduction of Neroon, for one. I always liked that character. The conflict between Warrior and Religious castes is interesting, and of course will be very important later on. I do agree with Estelyn that while Delenn sneaking around to make things right for a former Religious Caste leader seems entirely appropriate for her character, it seems weird that she's so willing to let Sinclair and his whole staff take the fall. I also like the "fight" between Ivanova and Talia Winters about the fate of the young telepath although it gets a bit clunky after a while. Still, I like that storyline alright, and the young woman who plays the teenage girl doesn't bother me nearly as much as she does some other viewers :p It does seem ridiculous for Talia to mention that her telepathic abilities probably manifested because of the onset of puberty. It's not just that the actor is clearly much older than that, the character is, too. Minutes after Talia makes that comment, it's revealed that Alisa Beldon is 14. Ok, so that's a minor detail :p

I find it interesting that Alisa gets away from the Psi Corps. Ivanova says to Sinclair at one point that she thinks there might be other options for Alisa as long as they can keep her under their (B5) jurisdiction long enough. How does that work, exactly? Babylon 5 is Earth jurisdiction, isn't it?

The list of random thoughts and things:
  • Minbari War Cruisers are gorgeous! Not "big and ugly", but then, I didn't just fight a war against them. It's taken me a couple decades to appreciate that aspect of Babylon 5. Ten years seemed like a very long time when I was young. It doesn't, now.
  • I think I say this every time there's a Warrior Caste Minbari on screen, but damn those robes are cool.
  • It kind of amuses me that Minbari fold flags at funerals/memorial services. Did they pick that up from the humans they fought against, or did is that just ... parallel evolution? :P
  • Stomach pumping of the Pak'ma'ra. How can this be legal?
  • How did Delenn have that body cremated? Is there a cremation facility on B5? Did she take the body off-station?
  • I love how Delenn is casually building her tower in these episodes, although because the airing order got switched around, I guess her tower is taller here than it should be. I have never compared between episodes so I can't say for sure :p
  • There's one conversation between Talia, Ivanova, and Alisa where all three are wearing bright shades of lipstick. It just stood out to me because it's all three! Did they just have a makeover or something? Ivanova's lipstick looks way more pink than her usual shade. Alisa is probably experimenting with all the new stuff she suddenly has access to. I guess Talia always wears bright colors, but this seems more pink than her usual reddish shades, no? I wonder if a salon scene was cut, or was implied, or if I'm just making WAY too much out of some pink lipstick :p
    http://www.lotje.be/fanstuff/legacies1.jpg
  • Sinclair and Neroon stand REALLY close together when they talk to each other. I'm starting to think this must be a Minbari thing, as there's similar conversations in other episodes.
    http://www.lotje.be/fanstuff/legacies2.jpg


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