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-   -   EpDis: TKO (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=7195)

vacantlook December 26th 04 20:11

EpDis: TKO
 
So, now we're on to TKO.

Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for TKO
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for TKO

vacantlook December 26th 04 20:18

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
I can't help it; I just don't like "TKO." Ivanova being sad over her father's death and finally dealing with her emotions over it is good, but it's just not enough for me to like the episode as a whole. Her calling out to her uncle as he's about to leave to instead stay and help her mourn is too melodramatic for me. I do like that Sinclair wants to attend to show his support for Ivanova.

I don't like the mutai plot at all. If it had been less boxingy, I might have liked it more. Also, the cultures of the mutai just feels as cheap-plasticy as the religion of the aliens in "Believers" to me. Of course there is the foreshadowing statement of "Watch your back," but it's not enough for me to get much out of the mutai plot.

Ninja_Squirrel December 26th 04 23:07

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
I don't like sports, especially boxing and other forms of fighting, but oddly, the Mutai doesn't bother me that bad. The part I don't like is that it is never explained exactually which races can participate in the Mutai and what disqualifies Humans. Also, are Humans the only ones disqualified? Is the Mutai a League thing, so Minbari, Centauri, and Narn are also excluded? Or, is it just Humans who can't participate? If so, is it about damaged pride knowing Humans bailed the others out of the Dilgar War? The concept is never fleshed out to my liking.

Also, it would be nice if the alien fighting styles were more...alien.

However, I love Ivanova's subplot. It may not deepen her character in a way that comes up later in the series, but sometimes character development is about coping with the short-term ordeals. I like learning about her family and her religious beliefs. It's the type of thing you would rarely, if ever, see on Star Trek except maybe in an alien culture.

I don't know why I like this episode when most people don't, but I would have to give it a B-.

GKarsEye December 27th 04 09:04

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Quote:

Also, it would be nice if the alien fighting styles were more...alien.

I don't think it would work so well. For one thing, they tried that when GKar was fighting other Narn and it looked retarded. More importantly, how different can fighting really be? Yes, there are different styles, but as long as we're dealing with bipeds who are all really pretty close in size proportionally, they're not going to develop radically different fighting motions.

Quote:

However, I love Ivanova's subplot. It may not deepen her character in a way that comes up later in the series,

Actually I think it does, if indirectly. It continues the theme of Ivanova constantly losing people she cares about. It makes the eventual death of Markas that much more poignant.

RW7427 December 27th 04 11:05

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
I like this ep. :D

fisheggs December 27th 04 18:16

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
I liked it. I didn't love it. Still better than 90% of the dreck out there, tried to make you think.

aajay December 28th 04 11:34

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
I liked the Ivannova plot from the 1st time I saw the episode. Loved the scene in Fresh Air when Susan and her uncle tried to figure out if something (treel??) was kosher!The mutai plot has started to grow on me.
A good, not great, episode.

B5_Obsessed December 28th 04 14:33

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Quote:

Yes, there are different styles, but as long as we're dealing with bipeds who are all really pretty close in size proportionally, they're not going to develop radically different fighting motions.

Unless you count "Drunken Master". :lol:

For all of it's cheese, including the cheesiest human/alien joint thumbs up scene between Garibaldi and Don Stroud's character, I've always liked it. It's probably because my expectations of B5 were not very high in the beginning, so I enjoyed the goofy white-blood-spewing action and Ivanova's jewish angst. What can I say, I'm a sucker for a Rocky IV immitation.

"You imbecile! They cheer for HIM!"
Roc-KY!
Roc-KY!

I mean, SMITH! SMITH!

What I find even more funny about this episode was the fact that they got THEEEE most japanese sounding guy to play Mutah-do (was I even close?), the Mutai Leader.

RW7427 December 28th 04 21:10

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Quote:

I liked the Ivannova plot from the 1st time I saw the episode. Loved the scene in Fresh Air when Susan and her uncle tried to figure out if something (treel??) was kosher!The mutai plot has started to grow on me.
A good, not great, episode.

I like the Ivanova plot too. :)

Quagmire December 29th 04 15:43

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Ivonova part was good.

I'm still waiting for soem distant voice to yell "Mortal Comabat" for the other part. Cheese.

grumbler December 30th 04 17:48

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Even the Ivanova subplot was too heavy-handed for me. I know DiTillio was trying to show that the humans were not universally loved (a Centauri could fight, a human could not) and that Ivanova's career came at a price, but there are ways to handle those issues without hitting me over the head with a sledgehammer. Not quite an out-and-out failure, but one of the least interesting 5 episodes in the series.

Marshal January 1st 05 02:31

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Personally I always liked the Mutai part the best. There is something I can't put my finger on with the Ivnova subplot that just doesn't work for me. I think the reason I like the Mutai is because straight forward. Theres a persona on the down and out he wants to fight he gets to fight and draws. there is also the issues of respect for other people and there ideas.

All and all its still only a C but Half is better than none.

Shaal Mayan February 2nd 05 17:24

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Average and mainly for the Ivanova story of greiving for her dad finally.

Gollum February 3rd 05 14:42

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
I liked the Ivanova plot, She is trying to get over her fathers death privatly by working all the time and not giving herself time to think about it.. The Rabbi makes her stop and grieve properley.. It was touching..

However the fighting story was probably the worst sub story I have seen on B5, It was Rocky in space, The old Alien was Mickey and Garabaldi was Apollo Creed, It was a combination of Rocky 2 and Rocky 4, I half expected Smith to shout out ADRIAN.... at the end ;)

Chilli August 16th 07 19:55

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
I generally hate boxing episodes. So no big surprise in my dislike for this one.

What especially bugged me about it though was how it fell into a Star Trek-y trap that the universe is split up into humans and aliens.

"The mutai is not for humans!" .. when it's obvious that it's quite fine for a few gazillion alien races to join.

Maybe it's a league thing, and the Centauri wouldn't be allowed in either, for example. But not once did they mention it. It was always just "not for humans", as if humans would be anything but random alien species #783 for the mutai-do.

Jade Jaguar August 19th 07 00:00

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilli (Post 306455)
"The mutai is not for humans!" .. when it's obvious that it's quite fine for a few gazillion alien races to join.

Humans were 'new,' upstarts, and had no knowledge, of or respect for the traditions involved. That is why they were not allowed. Although we never saw it, that could apply to other species as well. We only see a few species competing. I doubt it would apply to the Centauri, but perhaps. I guess we'll never know, unless JMS decides to make a series about the Mutai Doh. :eek:

Chilli August 19th 07 01:53

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
One can hope not :eek:

It's just something that bugs me me about so many Sci-Fi genres .. how aliens from any culture will always treat humans as "the normal" guys, as opposed to a random alien species - which, of course, humans SHOULD be to any alien race in a unvierse where there are X races.

Take Star Trek, for example. Spock is half human, half Vulcan. He grew up on Vulcan, and identifies himself as Vulcan. Yet, he refers to himself as "half Human and half alien". It just makes no sense - he should be seeing himself as "half Vulcan and half alien"

Babylon 5 was extremely good about this, in general. This is the one time over the run of the series that my pet peeve got petted.

Yes, other explenations are quite plausible, that races need to go through rites to get to join the mutai, or god knows what. But this was never introduces. We just saw "The mutai is not for you humans! It is for us aliens!"

Jade Jaguar August 19th 07 03:31

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilli (Post 306634)
Yes, other explenations are quite plausible, that races need to go through rites to get to join the mutai, or god knows what. But this was never introduces. We just saw "The mutai is not for you humans! It is for us aliens!"

This is a lot like sumo was in Japan. They were very reluctant to accept non-Japanese competitors, but no longer. I think the current champ is Mongolian. They are mad at him for not keeping tradition. :D

crazyhorse August 19th 07 10:26

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
It made me think of Bloodsport actually with the same this competition is not for you attitude.

As for him being refused entry at the beginning it was hardly surprising considering his attitude and big mouth.Was this done to show Humans general lack of respect for aliens?Clarke played on this later in the series.

As I understood it Humans were also one of the weaker races when it came to physical strength.Was it not shown that female Minbari had more strength by far than your strong Human?

It also seems to me that the other races seem to have been in space nearly a thousand years and resent the new boys pushing there way around the block.Considering they are new to space the Humans do seem to have a big political influence and a powerful military one.A certain amount of specism would be expected anyway and the Human Race would still be fighting to be accepted in many ways.

I didn't mind this episode at all,in fact one of the things about B5 was that I liked it all,well apart from the bits where Byron was in it.It opened up the rest of the universe a little more and made it a little richer.

Ivanova was,as usual,nice to watch as well.

I'd say a B

Mutai Sho-Rin August 22nd 07 01:55

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
This is the episode that sold the show to me. Both arcs worked for me and all of the characters just jelled. I still get choked up when Ivanova recites the mourning prayer - and I'm not Jewish. I guess my username is sort of a give away.

KoshN August 22nd 07 13:30

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Why is this thread and Poll titled "Favorite recurring character: Season 3" ???

Elipsis August 22nd 07 22:28

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Interesting that some people like this. This for me is the only episode of B5 that I would ever rate a failure.

Sindatur August 22nd 07 22:31

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Elipsis (Post 306882)
Interesting that some people like this. This for me is the only episode of B5 that I would ever rate a failure.

Even the Ivanova part of the episode mourning for her father?

Elipsis August 22nd 07 23:04

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindatur (Post 306884)
Even the Ivanova part of the episode mourning for her father?

I still thought it was pretty painful. If Ivanova had a part in the other story and it was effecting her in some way it would have been more relevent (similar to the way Sheridan's "beauty in the dark" session with Kosh helped him in There All the Honor Lies) It was ok as character development but it seemed out of place somehow, and I didn't find it nearly as interesting as the actual death of her father.

Cell August 24th 08 17:25

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/...babylon-5-114/

dreamer August 25th 08 20:05

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
I rather like TKO, but then again I don't think that the first season episode Infection is at all that what some might moan. It had a very valid concept.

Walker Smith's character was rather off with the tone of the series, but the story wasn't half bad - an ex contender trying to get back in the game by competing in a sport where no human has competed before. Honestly, I don't see any better way to promote yourself back to the show and how is that not a story worth telling? I mean, there will and always has been human martial arts champions, but to be the first to fight in something no other human has done before? That will get attention from all directions because first of all, it suggests that you're tougher than other humans and I bet that every single serious fighter would try to fight that guy to prove otherwise.

Also, expecting realistic choreography is nothing but unrealistic - even though when a fight scene breaks... about anywhere, you have everyone doing jump kicks and backflips and whatever. I agree however that the story was a bit too lightly told since there could've been a lot there, but this isn't the new BSG and things just aren't very heavy in the show.

Hating the Ivanova story because of one's own view on religions is a bit foolish. I hoped too that Susan wouldt've sat shiva, but how wrong can one millionbillion people be? I mean, in the end Susan also felt that having people close to you was a good idea when you're hurting. That's how Susan's character was portrayed, no matter how remote a russian she has been occasionally portrayed before. Also, how else a rabbi should've behaved? From a writer's point of view it would've been rather useless to throw in a unorthodox rabbi who would've agreed with Susan 100% and not do what they usually do.

And these are just my immediate thoughts about your thoughts of the episode.

"See good in bad. I like."
- Some guy on Fifth Element

Cell August 26th 08 00:05

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamer (Post 327665)
Hating the Ivanova story because of one's own view on religions is a bit foolish. I hoped too that Susan wouldt've sat shiva, but how wrong can one millionbillion people be? I mean, in the end Susan also felt that having people close to you was a good idea when you're hurting. That's how Susan's character was portrayed, no matter how remote a russian she has been occasionally portrayed before. Also, how else a rabbi should've behaved? From a writer's point of view it would've been rather useless to throw in a unorthodox rabbi who would've agreed with Susan 100% and not do what they usually do.

I didn't hate the Ivanova storyline, it just wasn't great. It was a decent storyline that was acceptable TV, but it wasn't anything special. TKO can thank that storyline for even garnering a D+, because without it this was a definite F episode and probably the worst of the series, behind even Infection.

As for my feeling on the religious issue of Shiva being forced, they are what they are. I thought it was terrible how that aspect was handled. I have no problem with Ivanova deciding to sit Shiva after all, but I didn't like the way the episode hammered home "Rabbi Koslov is right, you are wrong, sit Shiva or you are a bad person." Maybe you didn't get that vibe or pick that up, and that's cool, but I couldn't stand how heavy handed the episode was about religion, not a trait usually found in B5.

Jade Jaguar August 26th 08 01:05

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
I think the real point was not that she sit Shiva specifically, but that she stop suppressing/denying her emotions, and express them.

I've already explained, often enough, in other threads, why I think TKO is actually a good ep, because of the Mutai Do story line, so I won't repeat that again.

maneth August 26th 08 15:09

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
It's not one of my faves, but I still like it. Especially the Ivanova part, but I don't hate the fighting either.

dreamer August 26th 08 19:58

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cell (Post 327676)
vibe

Yeah, I did, and like you said that it was "acceptable TV", I don't think that anyone could've watched the episode and not expect things turn out how they did. Interestingly enough, if Susan would've stayed firm and perhaps even distance herself from everyone even more by telling them one by one that it was none of their concern, I would've rated that episode to my top 10 or something immediately. Not so much because a particular religion would've gotten a bitch slap, but mostly because it really would've established her character great deal more. I loved the cynical and pessimistic occasional Ivanova, and a degree of dysfunction over relationships would've gotten a big welcome from me.

Alexa April 25th 09 00:29

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
I really liked the Ivanova part, esp seeing her call the Rabbi 'uncle'. It brought a real softness and humanity to her character, which, up until this point, had been reserved and hard,esp in the first few eps. I didn`t think she did the sobbing very effectively though when she broke down crying. It just didn`t ring true for me, but the other scenes were, I thought, very well done.

The other plot line, well, I hated it. I`m not a sports fan, and this just seemed too much like a rehash of all the bad sports movies I had tried to sit through with my ex. The "stroke off" line was funny, even though it was not intended to be. It was just so bad, I had to laugh.

GKarsEye April 25th 09 13:42

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Recoil once wrote a really great post defending the A story of this episode while the rest of us were shitting all over it and I've since come around to his point of view.
Also I've since come to love fighting and sports movies and stories actually and I watch Rocky like very other month so I guess I'm biased now, but I like this episode.

The actor that played the alien that acted as coach in this episode comes back in season 3 as the Nightwatch creep that kidnaps Delenn and a Minbari captain in season 3.

Jade Jaguar April 26th 09 05:22

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexa (Post 341179)
The other plot line, well, I hated it. I`m not a sports fan, and this just seemed too much like a rehash of all the bad sports movies I had tried to sit through with my ex. The "stroke off" line was funny, even though it was not intended to be. It was just so bad, I had to laugh.

I'm not at all a sports fan, but I have defended the A story several times. It is about racism. Walker-Smith, black human, calls the aliens "snake heads," a racist epithet. The aliens of the Mutai Doh are also racist, which is why they won't let humans participate. Eventually, they learn to see each other as equals. That's the simple description, 'cause I'm too lazy to search for the better ones I've written... :D

Galahad May 4th 09 18:52

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Yes it's also quite interesting that you have two different types of racism at play.

Estelyn May 19th 10 19:39

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
I had to look up "TKO" because I was unfamiliar with that combination of letters. Does it mean "technical knockout" in this context?

I could have missed the fight parts of this episode without even a bit of regret. It did not interest me and it added nothing to the B5 universe, as far as I'm concerned. Granted, I am one of those people (we do exist!) who has never had the least desire to see a Rocky movie or anything similar.

The Ivanova part of the plot did bring closure to her loss and an opportunity to show emotion differently than normal for her. I liked the aspect of Sinclair's friendship that comes to the foreground. Whether that is enough to get me to watch this episode repeatedly is dubious though.

KoshFan May 19th 10 20:21

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Yes, that's the correct acronym.

There's some worthwhile stuff in the main plotline -- especially Smith's final warning to Garibaldi -- but you definitely have to dig for it. The Ivanova plotline works a lot better.

Lennier's Tears September 21st 15 12:39

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Ehh, TKO. I have never gone so far as to skip it, and I likely won't, just because I like to watch things in the proper order, but if I HAD to make a list of skippable episodes, I'm thinking this one would be at the top of the list. I don't find the A plot interesting enough to be an A plot. If it were a B plot alongside a very exciting A plot I might not have minded. Maybe. I'm just not that into boxing stories, or "disgraced fighter redeems himself" or whatever it is.

I can sort of appreciate some of the things they were trying to do here, like the lingo. Someone put a fair bit of effort into creating this slang that makes conversation between Garibaldi and Walker Smith almost difficult to understand. I can also kind of appreciate the general sentiment they were going for with the whole "humans need to butt out of this because they're butting into everything and we don't like it", but that is then sort of ruined by having a young Centauri enthusiastically nodding along to some unidentified alien who is expressing this sentiment. A Centauri! Because they're not busy trying to conquer everything in the known universe.

I'm also not really buying the sudden transformation of Walker Smith from some guy who casually throws out racial slurs to guy who respects alien traditions, but ehh, I guess I can deal.

As for the Ivanova plot .. it's alright. It makes me uncomfortable to watch everyone (ok, just the rabbi and Sinclair, but it feels like EVERYONE) butting into her life like that. I understand that they're doing it because they care about her and they can tell she's suppressing some things and she'd feel better if she expressed her grief but ... uncomfortable! I'd be way more pissed than she was if someone from my past came into my (very far from home) workplace and went behind my back to discuss my private life with my boss. That's not to say I think that's a bad storyline. It's exactly the kind of thing people do :p

I like the story Ivanova tells about going to the reading with her father. It's such a small thing, but it's great background stuff.

Also, I agree with Estelyn that Sinclair is great in this. He's showing so much compassion and caring with pretty much no words.

Mororless October 8th 15 08:25

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
One thing that did always stand out for me relative to Trek at the time was how much better the physical fighting was on B5. Trek normally descending into the infamous Starfleet "double axehandle" that KOed Klingons instantly where as in B5 we get some pretty well choreographed scenes with some decent skill on display.

I spose it was helped by having a lot of the fighting on B5 being done by minor characters, a lot of whome I'd imagine were stunt men first rather than actors.

Dorvo November 4th 15 00:34

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Dunno why, but I'm strangely fond of this episode, I think because it's particularly well acted by the guest stars. I really like the boxer (don't have the name at my fingertips) and the wonderful actor who plays rabbi Koslov (he recently passed away) is fantastic. Other things I like: the foreshadowing (Garibaldi, watch your back), and the general idea that humans are often seen by the other aliens as aggressive, pushy and culturally insensitive (the same charges, tellingly, that the human xenophobes in the series seem to level at aliens). It builds well on Ivanova's "emotionally stoppered" character, which gets so much development later in the series. So this one is a win for me, if not in my top picks.

Springer November 4th 15 13:28

Re: EpDis: TKO
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorvo (Post 452132)
Dunno why, but I'm strangely fond of this episode, I think because it's particularly well acted by the guest stars. I really like the boxer (don't have the name at my fingertips) and the wonderful actor who plays rabbi Koslov (he recently passed away) is fantastic.

Sadly the actor that played Walker Smith, Greg McKinney, also passed away in 1998.


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