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-   -   EpDis: Signs And Portents (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=7156)

vacantlook December 19th 04 21:41

EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
It's a big one: Signs And Portents.

Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Signs And Portents
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Signs And Portents

vacantlook December 19th 04 21:47

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Ok, so, "Signs And Portents" is quite a big episode! Me likey!

So, the potatoes of this episode is Mr. Morden going about from ambassador to ambassador asking, "What do you want?" How out of the blue and weird of a thing to ask someone, eh? ;) The various reactions are great.

We also have a rather minor (in terms of reoccurance) story of the Eye. The important stuff of course is that it is stolen by some raiders backed by a Centauri seeking to seize power, but that a mysterious ship pops out of nowhere and blows them up after it's been stolen and it is recovered and returned to Londo via Morden. The beginning of a wonderful relationship! :devil:

And of course, we get the prophecy from Lady Ladira of B5 blowing up, which of course does come to happen, just not quite as we expected.

GKarsEye December 20th 04 09:22

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
I don't see how any member of this board can choose anything less than a B for this one.

RW7427 December 20th 04 10:15

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
I picked B. :D

Oh, and I also wanted to say that Lady Ladira is kinda scary. :eek: :lol:

KoshFan December 20th 04 11:20

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
G'Kar and Londo's responses are magnificent. And we see Kosh fighting Shadows, for once. Wonderful fun.

And how's that for the first appearance of a Shadow ship?

fisheggs December 20th 04 12:08

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Londo scheming, prophesy fulfilled (he will be killed by shadows) Morden, first sighting of a shadow ship. An A all the way!!!

RMcD December 20th 04 12:25

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
It's a big episode and definitely gets an A, but it's marred a little for me by the raider captain, possibly the worst bit part performance by any actor in the whole history of B5. Maybe flying 2D space ships squashes your brain..

rangerPHIL December 20th 04 14:38

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
the whole kosh/shadow confrontation

'they are not for you'

utterly creepy, and Morden - what a slimeball.

and the Ladys' prophecy - 'The Shadows have come for Lord Kiro, The Shadows have come for us all'

amazing episode.

:D :D :D

KoshFan December 20th 04 22:20

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Quote:

It's a big episode and definitely gets an A, but it's marred a little for me by the raider captain, possibly the worst bit part performance by any actor in the whole history of B5. Maybe flying 2D space ships squashes your brain..

Worse even than Major Krantz of B4 infamy?

2aMageing December 21st 04 10:28

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Must give A.....is there a higher score??? I mean COME ONNNNNNN......one of the best raider battles of the B5.....predictions......kosh and delenn, ......kosh and morden mixing it up!!!......a shadow capital ship says "Hi.".....sinclair's personal wheel(s) is started turning......and of course the standard prediction of doom upon this station .......you can't pack much more top shelf stuff into an episode. :eek: :)

GreenMonkey December 21st 04 18:45

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
A. Of course. Too many threads are set in motion here, or are foreshadowed.

grumbler December 23rd 04 19:00

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
The episode around which the show turns. I literally was left "WTF!" at the end, and determined that I would never miss another episode (I thought at the time that the Shadow ship was no big deal to the fans, because I had missed a coupla eps, until I talked with my business partner the next day). They don't get any more "A" than this one.

B5obsessive January 5th 05 14:32

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Really like this ep,but doesn't quite fit in my A list. B++.Morden is the best baddy EVER! I love the way he just seems to check all the ambassadors off on a mental list, and after he talks to Londo you can totally here him thinking "Bingo! He'll do veeeeery nicely. (insert quiet evil laugh here)" :devil: And JMS's way of winding don the story then hitting us with this massive great spider THING out of the blue is just brilliant! But can someone out there PLEASE tell me how they managed to blow the raiders to hell and then retrieve the Eye intact!?

KoshFan January 6th 05 10:18

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Magic. Black magic.

sleepy_shadow January 7th 05 08:59

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Quote:

But can someone out there PLEASE tell me how they managed to blow the raiders to hell and then retrieve the Eye intact!?

Simply. One of them got personally involved. We already know that Vorlons can move though walls, without leaving a hole... so why should Shadows not?

One simply boarded the ship... took the Eye (from the hands of some *rather surprised* Raider)... and left the ship before the Shadow vessel fired.

Or alternatively (because the box seemed a *little* bit charred) a Shadow was not personally available. The Shadow vessel simply "flipped" part of the Raider ship into hyperspace (for example the cubic meter around the box) and destroyed the rest.

KoshFan January 7th 05 11:35

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Shadow weapons don't fry everything, either. Cut a big hole in the ship and if the Eye wasn't in that hole, it's safe with the rest of the space debris.

2aMageing January 8th 05 01:32

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
There also could have been a shadow agent in amongst the raiders.......in the time lapse of cutting away and before they are sliced and diced.....the shadow agent killed everyone in the room with the Eye, and departed the ship one way or another......ok, burn'em........but I suppose since it was charred, someone said, it was probably on board when the ship got dissected.......

Shaal Mayan February 2nd 05 17:16

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
A A A++++EXCELLANT No further comment needed .

Truth_Seeker March 30th 08 21:18

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Absolutely an excellent episode.The first time I saw it I didn't think that it would be so important for the whole story but after "Chrysalis" it was obvious that Morden is not just an ordinary guy.Londo's answer was exactly what the Shadows wanted to hear.We also see Lady Ladira's prophecy which in my opinion was refering to the possible future in "War Without End 1", showing a Shadow fleet destroying B5.It would be great if we could see the fight between Kosh and The Shadows and the damaged encounter suit.

Cell August 16th 08 12:31

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
I'm lazy, but eventually I got it done,

http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/...babylon-5-113/

Telepath August 16th 08 18:22

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Quote:

which in my opinion was refering to the possible future in "War Without End 1", showing a Shadow fleet destroying B5
According to the original outline in vol.15 of the scriptbooks, the prophecy refers to Delenn and Sinclair leaving in a shuttle while the Minbari warrior caste attacks and destroys B5.

Lousy_Dodgers August 17th 08 19:29

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
I like the episode for many reasons. In terms of the whole battle with the raiders, it was nice to see someone using some strategy for a change rather than just screaming "Fire phasers!"

The responses of G'Kar and Londo to Morden's question are great, though it would have been interesting if Delenn had answered the question too.

The elevator scene with G'Kar and Londo also merits a nod :)

Alexa April 23rd 09 22:29

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
I loved this ep. It has to be A for me. It was the ep that really blew me out of my seat. It was (for me) the best ep so far in the series, and an early display of what the show would accomplish. The dialogue, the plot, the teasers, all was superb. Even the humor...*kiss my pouch* :D

Alexa April 23rd 09 22:33

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
I would love to have a copy of the Eye. Anyone know if one was produced? I don`t know how much merchandising was done for this show.

Jan April 24th 09 00:05

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Having been on shows that were written around the merchandise, JMS very much avoided merchandising for quite a while. To the best of my knowledge, nothing like the Eye was ever produced. Patches, some pins...that was about it as far as reproducing props.

Jan

Estelyn May 18th 10 20:32

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
This episode is pivotal to B5. It sets the stage for future developments like no other story in the first season. So many significant things happen, it's so well conceived and written and acted and directed.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is Delenn "playing" with those coloured glass pieces. Only much later do we find out the significance of that structure - an important arc detail that isn't even mentioned, only shown without comment. Well done - signs and portents indeed!

JoeD80 April 28th 11 23:37

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
It's interesting to listen to Londo & G'Kar's answers again after seeing the Movements of Fire and Shadow/2-parter in season five.

Bab5nutz April 29th 11 05:23

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn (Post 361607)
This episode is pivotal to B5. It sets the stage for future developments like no other story in the first season. So many significant things happen, it's so well conceived and written and acted and directed.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is Delenn "playing" with those coloured glass pieces. Only much later do we find out the significance of that structure - an important arc detail that isn't even mentioned, only shown without comment. Well done - signs and portents indeed!

If I remember rightly, you see Delenn working with those as early as "Soul Hunter"

Orion October 20th 12 01:21

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Telepath (Post 327226)
Quote:

which in my opinion was refering to the possible future in "War Without End 1", showing a Shadow fleet destroying B5
According to the original outline in vol.15 of the scriptbooks, the prophecy refers to Delenn and Sinclair leaving in a shuttle while the Minbari warrior caste attacks and destroys B5.

Interesting. I never read this. What would the backstory have been for that to have occurred and at what point in the series? I always understood that it was from the shadows attacking like the previous poster wrote.

vacantlook October 20th 12 18:54

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Orion (Post 402110)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Telepath (Post 327226)
Quote:

which in my opinion was refering to the possible future in "War Without End 1", showing a Shadow fleet destroying B5
According to the original outline in vol.15 of the scriptbooks, the prophecy refers to Delenn and Sinclair leaving in a shuttle while the Minbari warrior caste attacks and destroys B5.

Interesting. I never read this. What would the backstory have been for that to have occurred and at what point in the series? I always understood that it was from the shadows attacking like the previous poster wrote.

Babylon 5 would have been destroyed at the end of the series, but instead of being decomissioned as in the finished product it was going to be destroyed by the Minbari, who were being led by the Warrior Caste with the Grey Council having been overthrown. They were trying to stop the Minbari's big prophecy, which the Warrior Caste interpreted to mean the end of the Minbari race (whereas the Religious Caste interpreted it to be the renewal of their race). Part of that prophecy involved Delenn and Sinclair having had a child together. The Minbari would destroy the station in an effort to kill their child before he could grow up and bring about the believed destruction of the Minbari race. Sinclair, Delenn, and their child would escape the destruction of the station on a shuttle.

That then would have been the set up for a spinoff that would involve Sinclair going back in time, grabbing Babylon 4, bringing it forward in time to use in the war against the Shadows (in the original outline, the Shadows wouldn't have been defeated during the five years of Babylon 5) and Earth would defeat the Minbari.

JoeD80 October 20th 12 19:08

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
The outline says the the Warrior Caste was responsible for the station's destruction. But also the outline states that all the races were after them, so perhaps they had all come to Babylon 5 to destroy it. The Narns end up being one of the few allies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series Brief/season five
the return of G'Kar, who reveals Londo's complicity and the Shadowmen intervention
...
the Minbari military caste...stage a coup and take control from the Grey Council.
...
Londo assumes control of Babylon 5's sector of space in the name of the Centauri Republic.
...
a Vorlon ship...is destroyed by the Shadowmen with Londo's help...Earth is blamed.
...
Season Five ends with an assault on, and the destruction of Babylon 5 by the Minbari.
...
[Sinclair and Delenn] are now wanted by everyone in the galaxy, it would seem; by Earth...by the ruling Minbari warrior caste...to some extent by Londo and the Centauri...and by the Vorlons...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series Brief/Babylon Prime
Sinclair, Delenn, their infant, Garibaldi, and a Narn...make their way to a meeting with the Grey Council.


Orion October 20th 12 21:54

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Hmm. I'm glad it didn't go that route. I had always thought that if O'hare had stayed, that the end of the series would've been the War Without End eps, thus closing his character arc at the end.

I understand from what you wrote, Vacantlook, why the Minbari warrior caste went after them. I wonder what would have occurred to cause the rest of the civs to be after them.
Joe, I think you're idea that they were all there to destroy B5 is right on. For the actual ending when B5 was decommisioned, ships from all the races were there to see it. So, JMS probably kept that part in the actual ending.

Thanks for the insight.

Psi Cop October 21st 12 14:10

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Orion (Post 402137)
Hmm. I'm glad it didn't go that route. I had always thought that if O'hare had stayed, that the end of the series would've been the War Without End eps, thus closing his character arc at the end.

I understand from what you wrote, Vacantlook, why the Minbari warrior caste went after them. I wonder what would have occurred to cause the rest of the civs to be after them.
Joe, I think you're idea that they were all there to destroy B5 is right on. For the actual ending when B5 was decommisioned, ships from all the races were there to see it. So, JMS probably kept that part in the actual ending.

Thanks for the insight.

I agree that if Sinclair had remained the final episodes would have been WWE. It's amazing to see how the original story arc evolved particularly regarding actors leaving the show. I did however feel that some of the transition from Sinclair to Sheridan was a bit awkward, Sheridan taking on some of the arc clearly meant for Sinclair (both had wives involved in exploration/romantic involvement with Delenn). The same for Lyta and Talia (the connection with the Vorlons for example).

JoeD80 October 21st 12 16:18

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Orion (Post 402137)
I had always thought that if O'hare had stayed, that the end of the series would've been the War Without End eps, thus closing his character arc at the end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psi Cop (Post 402149)
I agree that if Sinclair had remained the final episodes would have been WWE.

According to the outline, the Babylon 4 trip would have been the beginning of the sequel series, not the end of the Babylon 5 story. Sinclair was there to the end of the sequel as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psi Cop (Post 402149)
Sheridan taking on some of the arc clearly meant for Sinclair (both had wives involved in exploration/romantic involvement with Delenn).

On the Anna/Catherine both being explorers thing, I think it more likely Carolyn Sykes -> Catherine Sakai -> Carolyn Sanderson. According to the outline, Sakai was to have her memory erased in season three, which would have happened if she was taken aboard one of the Shadow ships. Catherine being on board the Icarus would not have made sense since Morden and the Shadows were already around in "Signs and Portents" and Sakai certainly doesn't seem to be under Shadow influence during the first season.

vacantlook October 23rd 12 13:38

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Orion (Post 402137)
I had always thought that if O'hare had stayed, that the end of the series would've been the War Without End eps, thus closing his character arc at the end.

jms's original plan would've had the stealing of B4 from the past be the beginning of a spinoff series, and instead of B4 being taken into the past it would've gone into the future to be used as a moving (B4 had engines) base after B5's destruction. In that original plan, Sinclair never was Valen; according that original outline jms wrote, that spinoff series would have ended with Sinclair living out the rest of his life alone on some planet somewhere fishing.

Jan October 23rd 12 14:43

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
One of the things I liked about the outline was that it seemed that Delenn remained more alien than we saw in the actual series.

Teep Trick October 23rd 12 22:50

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
Wow, its amazing how, even with a well-outlined story, how major changes can take place, with actors leaving, special effects team changes, all kinds of influences... is that outline here on the website, or do you have links to it you can post?

Jan October 24th 12 02:18

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
No, it was included in the 15th volume of the B5 scriptbooks, given to those who'd bought the entire 14-volume set. There's a synopsis around someplace but I don't know where.

Jan

Psi Cop October 25th 12 01:06

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
I don't get the title of the is poll. I'm assuming it means rating the episode. What does it mean by "favorite recurring character?" :confused:

JoeD80 October 25th 12 19:13

Re: EpDis: Signs And Portents
 
^
IIRC, the database got a little glitched awhile back, so that title came from a different thread.


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