B5TV.COM

B5TV.COM (http://www.b5tv.com/index.php)
-   B5.world (http://www.b5tv.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
-   -   EpDis: Deathwalker (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=6949)

vacantlook November 18th 04 01:05

EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Moving on to Deathwalker.

Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Deathwalker
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Deathwalker

vacantlook November 18th 04 01:35

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
I personally love "Deathwalker;" it's one of my favorite season one episodes.

It's great to see what a Dilgar looks like, and this is the only time we ever do. And Jha'dur definitely portrays the horrors that the Dilgar are associated with. Knowing this lends greatly to the "history" of the Earth-Dilgar War, which helps one to understand somewhat the hubris of many in EarthForce when it came to Earth's wanting to investigate or whatever the Minbari prior to the start of the Earth-Minbari War.

First, we get Jha'dur saying that since she's created an immortality serum that it'll be great for her in that though the Dilgar are currently viewed by pretty much everyone as horrible people, but that everyone will turn to praising them for her discovery. That's bad enough, full of arrogance and vengefullness. But then we get a second hit and see first-hand how horrible Jha'dur really is in the massive pleasure she derrives from the thought that since the serum requires the death of a living person in order to create it for use by someone, people will fall to preying upon one another for it.

Of course the possibly biggest fun for me in the entire episode is the quick sudden twist at the end when a Vorlon ship suddenly pops through the jumpgate as Jha'dur is on a shuttle bound for Earth and blows the shuttle, Jha'dur, and the serum to smitherines. Kosh's statement, "You're not ready for immortality," is a great moment for his character early on. It keeps him mysterious, of course, but also hints at how advanced the Vorlons are. The ambassadors of the League of NonAligned Worlds are pleased that the horrorible Deathwalker is now dead, and there's little beyond filing a note of complaint that Earth could do in response to the Vorlon's actions because of how powerful the Vorlons are. Very nice.

I like that we get to see Ambassador Kalika again. I said it when they first popped up in "The War Prayer" and I'll say it again here, I like the look of the Abbai and wish they had been in the show more.

We also get to see three League ships in this episode: the Drazi, the Vree, and the Ipsha. I'm glad that the Drazi ships were eventually redesigned making them a bit more normal than the one in this episode. The Vree ships too were redesigned, but I kinda wish we'd see the old designs too and have had the Vree add both types of ships to the fleet Sheridan assembled. As for the Ipsha, I wish we'd actually seen what an Ipsha itself looked like and not just the ship (I'm unaware of any background aliens in the show being the Ipsha, if anyone else is, please point them out for me). I really like the design of the Ipsha ship, but it honestly looks like it should be a really advanced alien species's ship and not just a member of the League. I'd almost go so far as to say the Ipsha ship would have looked really cool if it had been the ship of one of the races of First Ones with that floating, glowing globe in the center.

Na'Toth had some great moments in this episode, it was a treat as always when the lovely Ms Brown brought Na'Toth to the screen. I liked how when G'Kar comes to pick Na'Toth up from Sinclair, though she's in trouble and upset at Sinclair for not allowing her to fullfill her shon'kar, Na'Toth stops on her way out and salutes/bows/whatever to Sinclair. It was almost as if she was saying "up yours" under the guise of being respectful.

And then we have the B-plot of Kosh hiring Abbut to record pieces of Talia's psyche "for the future." It definitely keeps Kosh's weird factor high and shows us yet another weird character in Abbut.

"Crab Nebula!"

It would kinda be nice to have a novel or something to endingly tie together Talia's character and that crystal beyond the tiny bit by Garibaldi saying that it might be useful with the Control personality overtaking Talia in "Divided Loyalties."

"Deathwalker" is definitely an episode I enjoy a lot from season one.

RMcD November 18th 04 05:04

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
I also enjoy this episode. I think it's about the first that I can ever remember watching the very first time it aired, long before I was a fan of the show, so my perceptions of it are perhaps a little rose-tinted. It's a really solid episode, very close to the heart of what B5 is actually all about (at least in season 1). It delves into Earth's good relationship with the league which is often hinted at - I wonder if this might help to explain why Earth is one of the major powers despite being so backward technologically (they beat the Dilgar, and technically they also beat the Minbari - not a bad record).

The moral dilemma is really interesting, and its also interesting to watch how Sinclair, as a deeply moral character, struggles to deal with it. The Vorlon ship appearing at the end is maybe a little deus ex machina, but it works fine in the context of the series and the character of the Vorlons.

Shaal Mayan November 18th 04 09:02

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
I gave it a B rating Overall well done and nice story of the dilgar and a little of the war .

KoshFan November 18th 04 09:32

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
One favorite bit of mine is Jha'dur saying, "Not like us? You will become us."

But the Vorlon playing deus ex machina was great. And if you look closely at this episode, you'll realize that Kosh is pretty darn telepathic, considering that Abbut's not the one sending the images to Talia's mind.

Besides, this episode contains two of my favorite Kosh lines ever:

"We shall meet at the hour of scampering."
"Ah. You seek meaning."

GKarsEye November 18th 04 10:45

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Yep, an excellent ep, and IMO, the 3rd great ep in the series where I can't remember anything I didn't like in it (Midnight and Parliament were the first two).

Textbook B5 in that it's mostly "stand-alone" but we get so much that gives us a deeper look into the world of this story.

I'm a sucker for weirdness, and the VCR guy thing was great.
"You seek meaning"
"yes"
"Then listen to the music, not the song"

J'Hadur is a wonderfully nasty piece of work. She has a bit of a Hannibal Lector thing going on, because she's evil and killed so many but is still around and catered to by legitimate forces of power because she has something they want.

We also learn that not all the Minbari are as unified and enlightened as Delenn makes them out to be.

phoenixrising November 18th 04 23:54

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Gave this one a B, simply because it's very, very good, but not as great as some later ones.

I love how the League flexed their muscles in this episode and showed they will not let the 'Big 5' push them around.

The subplot with Kosh and Talia was okay, but in retrospect was a waste of time since all it showed was that Kosh was doing some scheming behind the scenes and the main story showed that when he blew Deathwalker to atoms.

hypatia November 19th 04 00:07

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
I'd say that's more a sign of JMS's amazing flexibility. :cool:

He had a major idea/theme/concept and he also had the amazing ability to keep that idea/theme/concept flowing no matter what/who changed the dynamics.

For a guy who had a pretty detailed outline of his whole story arc, he was pretty amazing. This episode? As others have pointed out, it does forshadow a lot. And I loved the acting of the lead guest star.

She just exuded self satisfaction, didn't she? :devil:

Nice to have a villian you can really hate. ;)

phoenixrising November 19th 04 00:25

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Even better than a villian you can hate is a villian that has a personaility and doesn't see themselves as evil. Of course acting that can be difficult.

RW7427 November 19th 04 00:33

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
I give this ep an A. Thumbs up all the way! :D

Granite November 19th 04 03:38

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
I like the little notes on just how sadistic deathwalker was.

"She infected the entire planet of Arkata 7(?) with Stafford's Plague just to see how long it would take them all to die"

hypatia November 19th 04 08:56

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
That's of course a reference to that unbelieveably horrible Nazi who conducted bizarre experiments on Jews in WWII, I suspect. Same idea taken to ridiculous extremes in terms of population.

I liked the point that she made in the end. I forget the exact line, but 'like us? You will become us'. It's a lesson I have to remind myself of quite a lot these days. If you adopt the methods of yoru enemy, you start to become your enemy. :(

GKarsEye November 19th 04 10:28

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

Even better than a villian you can hate is a villian that has a personaility and doesn't see themselves as evil. Of course acting that can be difficult.

I think J'hadur accepted that she was evil. She didn't care about the lives of those outside of her race, and since they're destroyed, she might as well take everyone down with her, even if she's not around to see it. Her boasted was not that she wasn't evil, rather that she is and those around are also but are too hypocritical to admit it.

By the way, what did happen to the Dilgar? It seemed implied that they were completely wiped out- if so, how? Even after losing a devastating war, some remnants of the population survive. The only way to wipe out a species completely is with a supremely contagious incurable airborne disease with a 100% fatality rate (like the Markab).


Hyp, the Nazi war criminal you're thinking of was Joseph Mengel(sp?), who "experimented" with concentration camp prisoners.
(I was starting to type some of his actions, but I just ate breakfast...)

A_M_Swallow November 19th 04 10:41

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

By the way, what did happen to the Dilgar? It seemed implied that they were completely wiped out- if so, how? Even after losing a devastating war, some remnants of the population survive. The only way to wipe out a species completely is with a supremely contagious incurable airborne disease with a 100% fatality rate (like the Markab).


I think the sun went nova.

RW7427 November 19th 04 11:13

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
I remember Dr. Franklin saying that what Dilgar that weren't killed in their wars with the League Worlds and the Earth Alliance died when their sun went nova and wiped out their planet.

GKarsEye November 19th 04 11:22

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
I do remember that now, thanks.

But it seems completely silly to me. Wouldn't they have known about their sun going nova for decades, even generations before the war? They would have spent that time getting the hell away from that star, not invading other people.

Markas November 19th 04 11:36

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
It was Dr. Josef Mengele; here is a pretty good overview of his...work. :(

I agree that it is silly that all of the Dilgar would have perished in a nova of their sun. It's not that big of a surprise, unless someone made it go nova. There is not enough data to know. I suppose if they were as ethno or species-centric as they appeared to be, it's possible that they did not mingle in places with others.

A bit of a plot hole, I think.

sleepy_shadow November 19th 04 11:50

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

Wouldn't they have known about their sun going nova for decades, even generations before the war?

Apparently they did. And decided the best way to acquire new habitable systems... was taking by force.

During which they wasted the resources to peacefully secure a new planet or two (or provided technical expertise, create stations/ships/orbitals to manage without).

Sindatur November 19th 04 11:51

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Not neccessarily, it could have been caused by them, or it could have been caused by, say the Vorlons? Perhaps the Jhadur wasn't the first Dilgar that the Vorlons disposed of, but, rather the last?

KoshFan November 19th 04 12:18

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
The Dilgar sun went nova, yes -- and in Deconstruction of Falling Stars our very own sun goes nova somewhat unexpectedly. Evidently someone in the B5 universe has a habit of blowing up stars.

I think making a sun go nova was a little beyond the Vorlon's power, but as G'Kar says, perhaps "There's someone else out there..."

Sindatur November 19th 04 12:25

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
I thought it was the Humans that made Sol go Nova in DoFS, because we were ready to move into the Vorlon home Planet, and wanted to keep Earth out of the wrong hands?

Markas November 19th 04 12:30

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
If they can open a gateway to another dimension, making a sun go nova is well within a first one's power.

A_M_Swallow November 19th 04 12:31

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

Apparently they did. And decided the best way to acquire new habitable systems... was taking by force.


Which would explain why Deathwalker was developing pathogens to wipeout the populations of entire planets. They did not want slaves just the land.

Since the Dilgar ended up with all the members of the non-alighted worlds against them it sounds like they failed to stop when they were ahead.

GKarsEye November 19th 04 12:49

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

Not neccessarily, it could have been caused by them, or it could have been caused by, say the Vorlons? Perhaps the Jhadur wasn't the first Dilgar that the Vorlons disposed of, but, rather the last?

This wouldn't jibe with the "historical" importance of Earth saving the non-Allied worlds from the Dilgar, which made humans a major political force. Unless maybe the Vorlons decided to wipe out the Dilgar after they had already been beaten, but that ain't their style. I don't think they would even give a shit.

Quote:

I thought it was the Humans that made Sol go Nova in DoFS, because we were ready to move into the Vorlon home Planet, and wanted to keep Earth out of the wrong hands?

I don't remember anything in that episode that implied or indicated that humans caused it to go nova. And why would they- if the Vorlons kept their home planet secure, why wouldn't humans?

However, our sun won't go nova for billions of years, so making it go nova that soon is either, as you say, man-made (hardly the action the peaceful, enlightened race depicted in DoFS) or just a scientific gaffe by the show.

Sindatur November 19th 04 13:00

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
From Lurker's Guide, JMS Speak, Episode DoFS

Complaint/Question: "My personal nit is that JMS has the sun going nova in only a million years. This seems several orders of magnitude too soon for me."
JMS: Actually, the computer voice specifies that it is continuing to note atypical solar emissions...atypical meaning something unusual is going on.


And what if you, say, interfered substantially with the mass of the sun by, say, causing a series of jump points to open up *inside* the sun across several days?

You'd also substantially decrease the mass of Sol, which as I understand it, would result in the sun going nova.

Not, concrete, but I knew I got the impression from somewhere.

hypatia November 19th 04 13:01

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Or simply a thought JMS never chose to follow up on. I would think the world of possibilities in science fiction could come up with a plausible explanation. An experiment gone horribly wrong.

I assumed, as has been mentioned, the Dilgar became so aggressive because they knew their days were numbered. Is it possible the worlds they were so terrible to simply did not let them leave? I suppose not

FreeBaGeL November 19th 04 16:43

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

Not neccessarily, it could have been caused by them, or it could have been caused by, say the Vorlons? Perhaps the Jhadur wasn't the first Dilgar that the Vorlons disposed of, but, rather the last?

This doesn't really fit with the rest of the story. If the Vorlons could make a sun go Nova, why would they even bother making the giant planet killers later in the series, when they could just nova the star of that planet?

GKarsEye November 19th 04 16:52

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Because that would annihilate an entire solar system, when maybe they only want to take out the one planet.

vacantlook November 19th 04 17:01

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Anyone think that perhaps the Dilgar were being influenced and groomed by agents of the Shadows in hopes that the Dilgar would be the race they could use to start kicking over ant hills, but with the Dilgar getting beatened, they eventually went looking for new ones and decided on the Centauri?

PillowRock November 19th 04 17:33

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

I think J'hadur accepted that she was evil.

I don't so. I think that she considered herself to be similar to everyone else, relative to the capacity for good and evil. It was just that she had this vision about immortality that rendered her actions acceptable (in an "ends justifies the means" sort of way). A fair portion of her point in supplying the drug to the other races after the fact was to prove that they would all act the same way that she had, when a similar goal was presented. It would prove that she wasn't any worse than anybody else.

Now, she had long since accepted that everybody else though of her as being evil. That is kinda the starting point for trying to prove that everybody else is the same as you are.

vacantlook November 19th 04 17:38

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

It would prove that she wasn't any worse than anybody else.

I think that Jha'dur was less about trying to prove she wasn't any worse than anyone else and more about her trying to prove that everyone else is as bad as she is but just doesn't want to admit it.

PillowRock November 19th 04 18:05

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

Quote:

It would prove that she wasn't any worse than anybody else.

I think that Jha'dur was less about trying to prove she wasn't any worse than anyone else and more about her trying to prove that everyone else is as bad as she is but just doesn't want to admit it.

Could explain the difference?

Either phrasing says that she is trying to prove moral equality between herself (and maybe her people) and the rest of the known sentients. They appear to me to be logically equivalent.

vacantlook November 19th 04 18:27

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Both statements reach the same terminator, but they state different things.

Quote:

trying to prove she wasn't any worse than anyone else

This would be her trying to prove to that everyone has flaws. It comes from the perspective that all people try to do good and just occationally do things that can be construed as bad from a certain viewpoint due to mistakes in judgement that one makes along the way.

Quote:

trying to prove that everyone else is as bad as she is but just doesn't want to admit it

This is her fully acknowledging that she's got a significant portion of her being that's evil and that everyone else has that exact same evil in them but they just don't actually admit it. That she's being honest in that she does bad things and is going to prove to everyone else that they're as evil as she is despite their wanting to think otherwise.

FreeBaGeL November 19th 04 21:24

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

Because that would annihilate an entire solar system, when maybe they only want to take out the one planet.

So they were willing to kill entire planets with billions of people on them just to get to one person (Centauri Prime for Londo among others), so I don't think that would be something they were concerned with.

sleepy_shadow November 20th 04 07:15

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
I would think... that First Ones were quite capable of removing an inconvenient star.

However, even for them... directly destroying a tiny planet (tiny in relative sense) could prove notably quicker/easier than destroying a *massive* star.

Although, admittedly... it would probably depend on how easily a particular civilization could manufacture particular objects... namely black holes below their natural threshold mass. Portable ones.

Because such an object... a pre-manufactured singularity delivered into a star... probably could destroy a star quickly.

Resulting collapse would probably draw most of the star's mass inward. How fast... I cannot predict. My calculation (admittedly intuitive, not numerical) seems to suggest a quick collapse... but without adequate knowledge of the physical principles involved, I could be wrong.

If the star's element composition has reached a suitable phase... such a process might *slightly* resemble a nova.

But this does *not* seem what happened to the Dilgar sun (and probably neither to the Earth sun as depicted in "Deconstruction").

Because the resulting black hole would sure draw attention, and leave no question about the artificial nature of what has happened.

rangerPHIL November 20th 04 17:53

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
J'Hadur was a really wonderful nasty character and I have to admit that Deathwalker is my second fave season 1 episode.

:D

phoenixrising November 20th 04 23:12

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

I agree that it is silly that all of the Dilgar would have perished in a nova of their sun. It's not that big of a surprise, unless someone made it go nova. There is not enough data to know. I suppose if they were as ethno or species-centric as they appeared to be, it's possible that they did not mingle in places with others.

A bit of a plot hole, I think.

It would make a lot of sense if, as a condition of losing the war, they were confined to their home planet and a blockade set up. That would be very logical.

RMcD November 21st 04 06:27

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Maybe it was a case of mass suicide. After losing the war and perhaps being confined to their own planet, a 'moral majority' of Dilgar could have become aware of the crimes committed in their name. Then they or perhaps only a small faction among them might have found a way to detonate the star, out of guilt. The trouble is, the Dilgar invasion is only mentioned twice in the whole series, so anything like this is pure speculation.

GKarsEye November 22nd 04 11:29

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

Quote:

Because that would annihilate an entire solar system, when maybe they only want to take out the one planet.

So they were willing to kill entire planets with billions of people on them just to get to one person (Centauri Prime for Londo among others), so I don't think that would be something they were concerned with.

Morden implied that eliminating the Narn was on the Shadows' agenda. "All in good time" or something like that when Londo half-jokingly asked if they might as well not kill all the Narn. My guess is that they hold a grudge against the Narn for kicking them off their planet a thousand years ago.

But First Ones think very big-scale and are patient, so they combined the two goals of destroying Narn with corrupting the Centauri. If they couldn't get Londo, they would just use Refa (which they started to do) or any other ambitious Centauri, of which I'm sure there was no short supply.

aajay November 22nd 04 12:06

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
One of my Season 1 favorites as well.
Sarah Douglas gave a good performance (as she always does) as Jha'Dur. Na'toth was also in rare form.
The B plot was enjoyable as well...would have loved to see Kosh scampering.
Was good to see the non-aligned world aliens too. Did we ever see a Vree?? Are they the ones with the "gas mask" look?


All times are GMT. The time now is 00:46.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2008 B5TV.COM