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-   -   EpDis: Deathwalker (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=6949)

Jan July 6th 08 00:19

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cell (Post 325286)
That's fine, but I'm not them. If you like her posts that's fine, but I personally like insightful posts rather than quotes from JMS, or pressers from the President of his fan club.

I find that the people who play the 'worship' card are usually trying to shore up their own insubstantial viewpoints by going on the attack. In my case, what you like to characterize as 'worship' is simply considerable knowledge of the man's work, public postings and in particular, B5.

I'm a fan of JMS's, I make no secret of the fact but he has no fan club and no worshipers that I'm aware of. What that fandom means is that I'll give anything he produces a try. I certainly haven't loved everything he's ever done but the balance is tilted well on the side of things I like. As for considering him incapable of wrongdoing, :lol: that's another accusation by the ignorant. Suffice to say that when I disagree with JMS, it's actually in the group where he can see that and respond, not a forum he's not known to have ever visited.

You've chosen to take the stance that your views and interpretations as the viewer of the show are as valid or even more valid than those of the person whose vision produced B5 which is arrant, and arrogant, nonsense. For the first time ever, a TV show producer took the time to engage the fans of the show in a dialogue, telling them what he was trying to do, where he felt he succeeded and just as honestly, where he felt he failed. He's got 16+ years of credibility.

You choose to declare him a liar, saying "It's obvious" and repeating yourself over and over without adding any new data. I choose to back up my views with the public record. Sometimes at the beginning of a conversation, you make some interesting points. Unfortunately, your tendency to simply repeat points incessantly wears thin rapidly causing people to drop out of conversations.

Like now.

Jan

Jade Jaguar July 6th 08 01:34

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
:brickwall::brickwall::brickwall: :D

KoshFan July 6th 08 02:02

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
While usually my last word on internet arguments is admirably summed up by XKCD (http://xkcd.com/386/), I'm gonna give this one last throw, just for the fun of it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Cell (Post 325153)
I have presented plenty of reasoning

Let's test that theory, shall we?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cell (Post 325034)
The Talia as traitor was a retcon, that's the way it always came across to me. It wasn't a bad retcon mind you, but I do think JMS is being delusional by trying to claim that it was set up from the beginning, when by watching the series you can see it clearly wasn't. They were setting up for Talia to change, but not into another personality. All the mirrors and stuff like that was a nice way of setting up her eventual turn from the Corps and the life she knew to her new superpowered ways with the Vorlons. If JMS's explanation works for you that's cool, but to me it's an obvious retcon.

Exhibit A: Cell felt it was a retcon.
Exhibit B: The mirrors were a setup for something else, which didn't happen.

Exhibit A is actually an opinion and shall be stricken from the factual record. Exhibit B is... an interpretation, not actual data, and seems rooted mostly in how Cell interpreted the show. This interpretation is valid but cannot be construed to be a fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cell (Post 325080)
Follow the story, that's all one need do to see that JMS retconned the entire ulterior personality. First, mirrors do represent internal change, like Talia struggling with her identity as loyal Corps member and wanting to leave the Corps as she becomes more and more enmeshed in their abhorrent, to her, ways. That was the purpose of the entire Ivanova relationship, the run-in with the runaways Teeps, Ironheart, etc.. All of that was designed to move Talia towards the path of independence, or at the very least to the Vorlons. There was never any hint of a secondary personality, not until after Divided Loyalties and until JMS started trying to explain away all of Talia on the show as having something to do with her secondary personality.

I''m simply saying that JMS' trying to say that he intended all along for Talia to have a secondary personality or that it was always there as a failsafe is a crock. Him saying otherwise is very transparent and it serves a perfect purpose for a writer. It gives him a get out free clause, although in this case it backfires. It says, "Oh, that Talia thing wasn't abrupt, I had it planned all along just in case, so see, it works." Despite that attempt, it doesn't work, it's still abrupt and forced. It works out in the end, but that is only because of the following Lyta storyline where she takes over what was originally Talia's story.

Therein lies the biggest reason why it's an obvious retcon, from the start JMS painted the story of Talia leaving the Corps, of the internal struggle within.

Exhibit C: The mirrors were about internal struggle.
Exhibit D: Talia was moving towards the Vorlons, independence, and Ivanova.

Exhibit C is a rehash of the previously discredited Exhibit B. Exhibit D is true, but reflected an earlier arc... which, let the record show, was actually Lyta's originally, not Talia's, so bumping off Talia and bringing Lyta back restored continuity in the show, not harmed it.

In short, Cell provided us in this thread with three pieces of evidence for his opinion. One seems to be additional opinion, one is not evidence but interpretation -- which, however valid, does not stand in place of fact -- and the third is accurate but not exactly relevant, since of course Talia's arc would have gone that way, with all its attendant foreshadowing, but didn't because Thompson left. In other words, his opinion is backed up by other opinions, and does not actually constitute "reasoning" as asserted above.

Don't feel bad, Cell, it happens to all of us... and, in fact, 99% of the Human race (especially on the internet) functions in a facts-free environment all the time, so you're in very good, and very numerous, company. Just your bad luck that you've fallen in with crazy logic-lovers.

Moreover, all this doesn't actually mean that you are wrong. JMS could be lying through his teeth and you could be absolutely correct. However, going by the available evidence -- the reasoning you provided vs. the reasoning JMS provided -- and applying Occam's Razor (the simplest solution is probably right), the odds against you being justified in this are long enough to be measured in light-years.

Sincerely,
Summer Glau*



* http://xkcd.com/406/

Cell July 6th 08 02:07

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
The entire problem with your last post is that I never at any point stated that my thoughts were anything other than opinion. I believe in them to the fullest, but in the end they are the same as any argument that states it wasn't a retcon, a matter of opinion (sorry, but JMS' comments really don't matter on the subject, I never take any comments from any creator into account when arguing anything, whether it helps my argument or not).

Now, I'm not going to say, "Ooh, this is my opinion" when posting them because I feel that is counter productive since everything stated about an interpretive art is opinion. On the flip side none of the evidence presented to counter mine was anything but opinion as well. Like I said from the beginning, it's cool that you don't agree, or don't think it was a retcon for a second, but there isn't one solid piece of evidence that makes that opinion correct and mine false. That's been the case from the beginning, and I've never said differently,.

Jan July 6th 08 02:36

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cell (Post 325300)
(sorry, but JMS' comments really don't matter on the subject, I never take any comments from any creator into account when arguing anything, whether it helps my argument or not).

If I hadn't been so ostentatiously put on Cell's 'ignore' list, I'd've asked why he doesn't credit the creator's word for anything to do with their show. Does he assume that it's all lies and ego stroking?

Jan

Jade Jaguar July 6th 08 02:53

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cell (Post 325300)
(sorry, but JMS' comments really don't matter on the subject, I never take any comments from any creator into account when arguing anything, whether it helps my argument or not).

Ummm, well, um, okay...

:guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw:

:eek: :wtf: :guffaw:

Cell July 6th 08 05:54

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Film and TV is an interpretive art, what the creator has to say about their intentions matters not, it's what you interpret that matters. This is the main tenet of interpretive art in all its forms.

KoshFan July 6th 08 20:13

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cell (Post 325300)
The entire problem with your last post is that I never at any point stated that my thoughts were anything other than opinion.

Hmm, you did say "reasoning" instead of evidence, didn't you? Well, in that case it may be I went in expecting evidence and got interpretation instead -- which is perfectly valid. Point taken, error acknowledged.

Quote:

(sorry, but JMS' comments really don't matter on the subject, I never take any comments from any creator into account when arguing anything, whether it helps my argument or not).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cell (Post 325303)
Film and TV is an interpretive art, what the creator has to say about their intentions matters not, it's what you interpret that matters. This is the main tenet of interpretive art in all its forms.

But in essence everything B5-related, ever, is one giant comment by JMS. He did everything for a definite reason, it's all connected. Ignoring the creator's point of view would essentially require you to ignore what has been created. If you said that about painting, it would be up there with saying "I never take the paint into account when I look at a painting."

I really think you have been taking JMS into account, just only through the medium of B5. Which would be like reading all his nouns and verbs but refusing to read his adjectives, to employ a different simile.

Now, feel free to disagree with him -- and us -- but I really don't think you can ignore his commentary.

That said, this is a very old debate, fought over by philosophers for millenia, and I doubt we shall settle the issue here. We can keep discussing it, of course -- civilly, I hasten to add. None of us has really been kind, so let's watch that.

Cell July 6th 08 21:32

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
I have no problem at all with people that do take the creators words into account. It's a valid form of art critique, but it's not one that I follow. I can see where it is helpful and why people do follow it, but it's never appealed to me and personally I don't see as much value in that as I do in individual interpretation.

Pretty much my only problem with including creator commentary comes when you get people that can't form a thought of their own and instead reply to any question with quote after quote from the creator. This is especially prevalent among Star Wars fans, and one of the reasons I rarely if ever discuss Star Wars with actual hardcore Star Wars fans anymore.

snockit July 7th 08 16:41

Re: EpDis: Deathwalker
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cell (Post 325326)
Pretty much my only problem with including creator commentary comes when you get people that can't form a thought of their own and instead reply to any question with quote after quote from the creator. This is especially prevalent among Star Wars fans, and one of the reasons I rarely if ever discuss Star Wars with actual hardcore Star Wars fans anymore.

"Greedo shot first!"

... that one quote should be enough to make his points have some validation.

Though I don't agree with his opinions either, however, he can interpret the visual medium without any supplemental material, which is what he is doing.

Think of looking at a abstract painting. If you didn't know the title or the description, you may interpret it different, where that is a valid way to appreciate art. It is how the art speaks to us, not necessarily how the the message was given from the artist.

What matters, is that we can, and that Cell is still really enjoying the form! :)

S.


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