B5TV.COM

B5TV.COM (http://www.b5tv.com/index.php)
-   B5.world (http://www.b5tv.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
-   -   EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=6917)

vacantlook November 12th 04 21:55

EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Time for And The Sky Full Of Stars.

Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for And The Sky Full Of Stars
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for And The Sky Full Of Stars

vacantlook November 12th 04 22:08

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
"And The Sky Full Of Stars" is one of the major episodes of the first season. We get a lot more about the Earth-Minbari War and it's all good. And we get a buttload more of Sinclair's missing time.

That there are people back on Earth that are not content with Sinclair running Babylon 5 and with his story of what he remembers happening at the Battle of the Line is compelling. I like that there are people in power in Earth society and government that aren't pleased with Sinclair having the possition he has; it makes the government in the show seem more real.

I really like the scene in the beginning between Franklin and Delenn where she asks him what he did during the war and we learn that he destroyed all his data on Minbari rather than let Earth use it to make weapons. And the ever mysterious Delenn easily and simply shrugs off the question when Franklin asks what she did during the war.

But as we eventually learn, Delenn was there at the Battle of the Line as part of the Grey Council when they tortured and interrogated Sinclair. I love it that the mystery isn't solved by the end of this episode. We know more than we did prior, but we don't know the whole story (but will later), which I think is great.

With Delenn trying to talk Sinclair down in the large hallway near the end, we feel that Delenn is friendly toward Sinclair, but we also are given a worry that she might not be all that friendly at all. It was a very nice tone set to keep the mystery rolling.

Overall, I think it's a great episode.

RMcD November 13th 04 04:26

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
This is one easily makes it into my top 5 episodes overall. It's almost the one where b5 stops being a show about a group of people trying to hold down difficult jobs in a tin can and starts to touch on the big epic stuff as well. It can really send shivers up and down my spine - the desparate image of a tiny wing of starfuries drifting past the moon before the big attack, the look of horror on Sinclair's face when the helmet floats past his cockpit, the whole idea of a battle so one-sided that only 1 in 100 (is that right?) survive, and of course Christopher Franke's requiem music.

I thought the actor who plays Knight 2 did a great job of bringing the character to life - it's hard to imagine Walter Koenig would be as good in the role (was it originally written for him?). It's a shame he never reappeared. And Knight 1 was in Star Trek 2..

Shaal Mayan November 13th 04 07:53

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
A this is an excellant episode adds to the mystery of B5 and gives ua suspion about Delenn and what her real motives are for being on B5 in the first place that she may not be all that she seems to be.

KoshFan November 13th 04 12:11

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Quote:

I thought the actor who plays Knight 2 did a great job of bringing the character to life - it's hard to imagine Walter Koenig would be as good in the role (was it originally written for him?). It's a shame he never reappeared. And Knight 1 was in Star Trek 2..

Let us be grateful for large mercies that Koenig got handed the role of Bester instead. Far more room to continue and grow.

What might have been best, however, is if Patrick McGoohan (sp?), from the Prisoner, had been in the country at the time. I'm told he read the script and loved it, but couldn't make it....

Jade Jaguar November 13th 04 19:45

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Damn! I would have loved to see him in B5! There WERE a lot of other good, well known Brits in it.

phoenixrising November 13th 04 21:28

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Quote:

Quote:

I thought the actor who plays Knight 2 did a great job of bringing the character to life - it's hard to imagine Walter Koenig would be as good in the role (was it originally written for him?). It's a shame he never reappeared. And Knight 1 was in Star Trek 2..

Let us be grateful for large mercies that Koenig got handed the role of Bester instead. Far more room to continue and grow.

What might have been best, however, is if Patrick McGoohan (sp?), from the Prisoner, had been in the country at the time. I'm told he read the script and loved it, but couldn't make it....

This is correct. Koenig was recovering from a heart attack at the time and couldn't accpet the role (his episode 'Mind War' was originally scheduled to run tenth, but WB was so pleased with it they asked that it be broadcast earlier). McGoohan did love the script, but was going to be out of the country and never did get a chance to appear.

This the episode where we see that B5 is trying to cover a much larger canvas then we first thought. Conspiracy upon conspiracy piles up and we wonder who's zooming who. This was one of the best episodes on the first season.

FreeBaGeL November 14th 04 00:21

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
This episode finally seemed to be bringing in the whole major plotline, and I really enjoyed it.

I gave it a "B", just because it's hard to narrow these episodes down to one of 5 grades when a couple of them were just so great. I feel this episode was "A" quality, but I have to leave some point of differentiation for those few really great episodes, and can't justify giving this one the same grade as those.

vacantlook November 14th 04 01:07

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Eek, I wouldn't want you as my professor; I hate grading on a curve. :p ;)

RMcD November 14th 04 03:27

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Quote:

Let us be grateful for large mercies that Koenig got handed the role of Bester instead. Far more room to continue and grow.

I wonder if, in some alternate universe, Knight 2 as played by Walter Koenig is Babylon 5's most important recurring villain, while Bester is just a minor character who appears in only one episode..

hypatia November 14th 04 08:37

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Knight 2 would have to get his memory back for that to work. ;)

What a wild coincidence, I am going through the second set of "Danger Man" DVD's now. :cool: It would have been great to see Patrick McGoohan in B5. That roll in particular would have been perfect for him.

Oh, well. :(

GKarsEye November 15th 04 08:52

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
I gave it an 'A,' but not without reservation: who the fuck were the "Knights" actually working for?! That really bugs me.

Other than that, great ep, of course. One of my favorite things about B5's presentation is the scenery-chewing ham acting of the guest actors, and the knight in the VR with Sinclair was great at that.

vacantlook November 15th 04 12:50

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
For some reason, I've always been of the opinion that the Knights had a covert connection to the PsiCorps or Bureau 13.

RW7427 November 15th 04 18:17

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Maybe the Knights were stooges for then Vice Pres. Clark.

RMcD November 15th 04 18:17

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Ultimately they may have been answserable to the Vice President, Clark. He would have already begun scheming at this stage, and fomenting hatred against the Minbari would have suited his agenda.

RW7427 November 15th 04 18:18

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
We both posted the same thought about Clark being in on it at the very same time! :eek: :lol:

RMcD November 15th 04 18:23

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Quote:

We both posted the same thought about Clark being in on it at the very same time! :eek: :lol:

Yeah, obviously great minds think alike.. :D

RW7427 November 15th 04 18:28

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
I'm sorry, but I always say that if anyone thinks like me, it's scary! :eek: :lol:

Cell June 22nd 08 23:22

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
New review,

http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/...-108/#more-463

Garovorkin June 23rd 08 02:13

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Interesting that Delene was under orders to Kill Sinclair if he ever regained his memories, boy that would have been a mistake now wouldn't it. Whats interesting is the fact that the Mimbari in effect tortured the man who was Valen reborn.A rather interesting bit of irony there I'd also interesting that Delene just happened to pick the right ship to tractor in.:cool:

Cell June 23rd 08 02:38

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
I accepted a long time ago that the B5 universe just happens to be the most coincidental universe ever in the history of all fictional universes. It's amazing how many big events in the B5 universe boil down to pure chance or coincidence.

The entire Delenn killing Sinclair thing to me has always been a paradox, hence why I asked the question about it. The Minbari called off the war because humans had Minbari souls and so they couldn't kill them. Now all of a sudden they're all like, "Kill the one dude that we know has a soul for certain, a soul derived from the line of Valen no less." It's one of those things that really doesn't make that much sense from a strategic or planning point of view.

Garovorkin June 23rd 08 03:05

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
I don't think He was connected to bureau 13 but the psicorps? Maybe, he could have been a member of rogue agency within the military, that to me seems more likely, its to bad they dispensed with him so soon, I too would have liked seeing him do a few more episodes.

Cell June 23rd 08 03:35

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
You mean the Knights? I have always been under the impression that they were members of the military, or at the very least a covert government op. I don't see them as being Psi Corps because their operation was too overt to be Psi Corps. I don't think they would be Bureau 13 because they appear to be tied to the Psi Corps.

Galahad June 23rd 08 19:55

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Garovorkin (Post 324715)
Interesting that Delene was under orders to Kill Sinclair if he ever regained his memories, boy that would have been a mistake now wouldn't it. Whats interesting is the fact that the Mimbari in effect tortured the man who was Valen reborn.A rather interesting bit of irony there I'd also interesting that Delene just happened to pick the right ship to tractor in.:cool:


I don't think that was irony at all... that is where the circle begins... and not with Valen. If Delenn had pointed to another ship, it would presumably be that pilot's story and not Sinclair's.

Truth_Seeker June 23rd 08 21:50

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Garovorkin (Post 324715)
Interesting that Delene was under orders to Kill Sinclair if he ever regained his memories, boy that would have been a mistake now wouldn't it. Whats interesting is the fact that the Mimbari in effect tortured the man who was Valen reborn.A rather interesting bit of irony there I'd also interesting that Delene just happened to pick the right ship to tractor in.:cool:

Yes, if Delenn had killed Valen this would change the future in a very dark way.Without him and B4 the Shadows would destroy B5 just like it was mentioned in Ivanova's distress signal from the future.After that they would win the war easily.Also there wouldn't be any Rangers, Castes, Grey Council or any of the known organizations in Minbari society.

GaribaldisHair June 24th 08 09:00

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Go to agree with Galahad here ... this is not a coincidence at all, but causality. They didn't just happen to chose the ship containing the guy who was going to go back in time to become Valen, that guy went back in time to become Valen precisely because he was picked up at that point and went on to lead the life he led after the Battle of the Line.

Minbari grab Sinclair, and question/torture him
Minbari discover Sinclair has the soul of Valen
Minbari surrender and let Sinclair go but decide to keep an eye on him
Minbari select Sinclair to command B5
Minbari then select Sinclair to go to Minbar and become ambassador/Ranger 1
Sinclair goes back in time to become Valen

Presumably if the Minbari had selected Mitchell instead, then it would have been Mitchell who went back in time to become Valen and not Sinclair.

hypatia June 24th 08 13:24

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
That is an excellent explanation, GH. I think the point that was missed was that whoever was picked was slated to go back in time and become Valen. Of course, there is still room for individual choice, there was an alternate reality that peeked through from time to time showing what would happen if the circle did not complete itself. So about all they were lucky with was finding someone willing to be fate's 'arrow'.

KoshFan June 24th 08 16:00

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
And even then, hyp, Sinclair was looking for that purpose long before he knew about it. Since most of us struggle with our purpose in life to some degree or another, most anyone could have fallen into that pattern of destiny. They were lucky to find someone as canny and open-minded as Sinclair, though. Most of the pilots out there would not have learned to "ignore the propaganda" and see the Minbari for who they were ten years after the war.

Cell June 24th 08 21:02

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 324770)
see the Minbari for who they were ten years after the war.

I don't know, I think most pilots would have been able to see the Minbari for the forlorn puppets of the Vorlons that they were.

Jade Jaguar June 24th 08 22:39

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cell (Post 324783)
I don't know, I think most pilots would have been able to see the Minbari for the forlorn puppets of the Vorlons that they were.

:rolleyes:

Cell June 25th 08 00:28

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
C'mon man, that one's really obvious. From day one the Minbari accepted every single thing the Vorlons had to say and went along with all of their plans, no questions asked. The Minbari were in essence the exact same as the Drakh, except for they eventually figured out what the real deal was while the Drakh were still puppets of the Shadows even after they left beyond the rim.

KoshFan June 25th 08 14:44

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
But since the Vorlons were so quiet at that point, it's hard to say that we could have seen the connection between them. Sinclair sees it later, but only once he's on Minbar. No, what I meant was, it's not every soldier who can see the good qualities of his old enemies.

Cell June 25th 08 14:47

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
Yeah, I get that, but I'm saying that any of the other pilots would have eventually discovered what Sinclair did because you spend enough time around the Minbari and the Vorlons and you can pick up on what their relationship really is. So they could have picked Mitchell or any other pilot and over the course of time I think they too would have discovered the true nature of the relationship between the Minbari and the Vorlons.

Estelyn May 17th 10 08:49

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
This episode does lend itself to all kinds of conspiracy theories, doesn't it?! What I wonder is, why are the two main guest characters called "Knights"? That would indicate some kind of order to which they belong. I don't recall anything similar coming up during the rest of the series.

This is a strong story with major importance for the arc. I like the way JMS gives only bits of information at a time, letting the sum build up over the coming seasons.

Lennier's Tears August 12th 15 17:26

Re: EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars
 
What a great episode! This is a fun one to watch with new people, although I haven't done that in a few years. There's a big reveal, which then only creates LOTS of new questions. How could anybody NOT be drawn in?

I love all the Battle of the Line stuff, how Sinclair hasn't been able to remember, and how clearly this worries people. I love how all the scheming going on back on Earth is becoming more obvious ... I love the ever-growing mystery surrounding the Minbari. WHY did they surrender? Delenn was there! What do they not want Sinclair to remember? Why?? I love everything about it. :p

Until I read the Lurker's Guide page for this episode along with this comment thread, it never occurred to me that Ivanova's behavior is suspicious in this episode. I mean, yes, it's weird that Delenn has to walk over to the security office to get Garibaldi to check on the Commander, if she already spoke to Ivanova who apparently didn't try to contact the commander, or didn't care that she couldn't reach him. But, I figured that was just done to make it more dramatic and to involve Delenn in the disappearance right from the start. That is to say, I thought there were plot reasons for it, not in-story reasons. I never even picked up on the fact that Ivanova seems to be casually strolling down the corridor while everyone else is frantically searching for Sinclair. I figured she has business to take care of and some of that is going to involve walking places. It wasn't (isn't) at all obvious to me that she is strolling in a casual manner.

Is that on purpose like the stuff with Takashima in "The Gathering", or just a coincidence? Was it meant to make us suspect Ivanova when the [SPOILERS for Season 2, although if anyone's still reading this thread at this point I'm guessing they don't care about spoilers :D ] "Control personality" plotline came up?

Random little (or not so little) things that stood out on this viewing:
  • There must be a reason there is no telepath involved in this plot to uncover Sinclair's "secrets". But, what IS that reason?
  • Those outfits the "Knights" wear... They are interesting. Why are they wearing identical outfits? Is this a uniform of some kind?
  • Basically, after all these years and multiple viewings, the Knights are still kind of a mystery to me.
  • Are there no cabinets in Sinclair's kitchen?
  • That Grey Council dude in Delenn's quarters at the end. Is he blind?
  • The shiny triangles on the foreheads of Grey Council members .. I like how they look, but we don't see those again in later episodes, do we?
  • What languages are the signs in Babylon 5 (below)? Also, while I kinda like the look of the font they used for the English, I don't know if it's the best choice for legibility, especially if they're randomly dropping letters left and right to make things fit on signs, as we see here ...

http://www.lotje.be/fanstuff/atsfos_1s.jpg


All times are GMT. The time now is 23:59.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2008 B5TV.COM