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-   -   EpDis: The War Prayer (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=6883)

vacantlook November 7th 04 17:03

EpDis: The War Prayer
 
And the next one is of course, The War Prayer.

Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for The War Prayer
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for The War Prayer

vacantlook November 7th 04 17:13

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
I thought "The War Prayer" was an ok episode -- not great, but not sucky either.

There are some moments I really, really like though. For example, I loved the scene in the medlab where Londo tells Shaal Mayan that Aria and Kiron will get over wanting love, and Shaal Mayan replies to Londo, "Just as you did." It's a striking character moment for me. Shaal Mayan felt a wee bit bland for much of the episode, but this moment for her and Londo was superb.

The bringing of Human hostility toward aliens is of course seemingly decent on being somewhat stand-alone, but it is great in setting up for the movement of some Humans in the future of the show to become aggressively isolationistic.

I liked the introduction of the Abbai and personally wish they were a background alien that hadn't been abandoned; I thought they looked rather interesting and that they had potential to pop up here and there and would have looked nice as one of the more prominent lesser races in the coalition against the Shadows.

RW7427 November 7th 04 17:50

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
Not one of the best eps, IMHO, but entertaining nonetheless.

Shaal Mayan November 7th 04 18:29

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
Since this is the episode that I took my screen name from I must give this one and A all around the board .With the downside being of course is that Mayan is not seen again in the series .Disapointing since she is supposed to be from what I gather a good friend of Delenn's. :(

vacantlook November 7th 04 18:48

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
She is mentioned again though, but I can't remember which episode it is that this mentioning is in.

Jade Jaguar November 7th 04 23:16

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
This is the ep that convinced me that B5 was worth watching, because of it's choice of topics, and it's position and treatment of them.

RW7427 November 8th 04 01:05

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
Quote:

She is mentioned again though, but I can't remember which episode it is that this mentioning is in.

Yeah, she is, but I don't remember the details. I do seem to remember either Lennier or Delenn talking to Garibaldi in the episode EYES asking that she have better security than she did in her last visit.

RMcD November 8th 04 04:12

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
This is obviously a personal thing, but this is the first episode of B5 that does absolutely nothing for me. For some reason I don't care about the Minbari poet. I'm not interested in the eloping Centauri couple. I'm not interested in Ivanova's ex or his strange accent. I even find it hard to get enthusiastic about an idea that should be cool like black-light camouflage. The plot twist is obvious, the acting isn't the worst seen in B5 but it's not the best. There are perhaps a few good scenes between Londo and Vir that develop their relationship further, and a good shootout at the end, but that's it. Instantly forgettable. Luckily And the Sky Full of Stars is next..

GKarsEye November 8th 04 10:27

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
The episode's importance lies in its introduction to the anti-alien sentiment of Earth.

It was actually hinted at in the first episode on the news casts for Santiago's re-election; they mentioned putting "earth first" or something like that. It seemed completely innocent at the time.

Yeah, the poet and especially the couple were annoying, but they were something for the main characters to play off of, especially Londo and his too-tight shoes. Some important character insight there.

Actor note: Winnie Cooper was the Centauri girl. ;)

aajay November 8th 04 11:30

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
An average epsiode.
I do remember the 1st time seeing it that I was shocked for a moment at Sinclair's treatment of the Abatti ambassador.
Didn't the Abatti show up again in Deathwalker?

vacantlook November 8th 04 11:51

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
Yes, G'Kar contacts the Abbai ambassador and informs her of Sinclair's having Deathwalker in custody in order to cause a stir that would prevent Sinclair from removing Jha'dur to Earth.

GeoKuutio November 8th 04 16:26

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
I liked this episode a lot. I don't know exactly why, but something in this episode, maybe the setting or situations themselves do this, but as a whole, this is one of my favorite episodes from this season. I must give an "excellent" rating to this one. Just because I like it so much. Partially the reasons behind my choice are unknown even to me... so, don't ask furthermore explanation about this. :lol:

RW7427 November 8th 04 21:42

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
Quote:

Quote:

She is mentioned again though, but I can't remember which episode it is that this mentioning is in.

Yeah, she is, but I don't remember the details. I do seem to remember either Lennier or Delenn talking to Garibaldi in the episode EYES asking that she have better security than she did in her last visit.

Look at me quoting myself! :lol:

I'm watching Eyes right now, and Lennier goes to speak to Garibaldi on behalf of Delenn to request extra security for Shaal Mayan's next visit to the station. ;)

vacantlook November 8th 04 21:49

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
I sometimes wonder if there are any minor characters like Shaal Mayan that jms has thoughts about more that happens with them in the universe that just never gets told (and most likely never would get told) but that still floats around in his head.

KoshFan November 8th 04 22:11

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
Shaal Mayan is probably referenced in a Universe Today headline. Those headlines spoke volumes.

VL, that's a good question. I wonder how David MacIntrye fared as a resistance leader on Narn, and what he did after Narn was freed. Somehow I envision him in the Rangers eventually. And did the Cassandra-esque Lady Ladira survive the various upheavals of Centauri Prime? For that matter, did Vir's wife Lindisty -- and did she and Vir ever get married? Vir's star was on the rise again in Season 5 as the replacement ambassador to B5, and while that position was not as big as it was with the IA taking over, it was still better than being diplomatic envoy to Minbar, which was enough to get him engaged in the first place.

Of course Vir had his pick of women as Emperor, but I like to think that he tried to get Lindisty to change.

vacantlook November 8th 04 22:21

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
Quote:

I wonder how David MacIntrye fared as a resistance leader on Narn, and what he did after Narn was freed.

He's a character I, too, wonder about. I totally loved his connection to G'Kar. Perhaps if he did become a Ranger, which does seem like it would fit him well, he went back to Narn in the years afterward and used connections he made while there to begin training some Narn as Rangers.

Quote:

For that matter, did Vir's wife Lindisty -- and did she and Vir ever get married?

I can't ever see Vir actually liking Lyndisty after finding out what she did.

KoshFan, have you read the Centauri trilogy? There are considerably developments for Vir's character in those novels, including in the area of love interests.

KoshFan November 9th 04 08:39

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
Oh, yes, I did -- but if Londo is anything to go by, the Centauri play things a little fast and loose. And Vir's last words with Lyndisty suggested to me that he liked her and wanted to change her -- but of course she felt the same way, and that's never a promising start to a relationship.

vacantlook November 9th 04 11:18

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
I figure that with Vir getting together with whom he starts to get with at the very end of the trilogy that any thoughts getting back with Lyndisty would be evaporated right out of his head.

B5_Obsessed November 9th 04 12:11

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
Considering this thread references both The War Prayer and the Centauri trilogy, I'm surprised no one mentioned the "Black Light Camoflage". Although this technology would be very useful in any number of situations, it was never seen again in the show (probably JMS killing off the Deus Ex Machina, and also not wanting someone running around invisible like Frodo).

However, in the Trilogy, a former B5 castmember was in possession of a Drahk invisibility device, which earned him the nickname of "The Ghost". So why was this such a big deal when Earth had possessed similar technology at least 5 years earlier?

Oh, and Tristan Rogers' (Robert Scorpio to all you old General Hospital watchers out there) accent is what we call Australian.

KoshFan November 9th 04 20:34

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
Well, as I recall, the invisibility camo only worked while the people in question were standing still, while the Drakh cloak worked (more or less) while its wearer was moving.

Besides, there might actually be a Shadow technology connection, and we don't know all the ins and outs of that yet.

B5obsessive November 24th 04 15:02

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
Another cracking ep for our dear Lieutenant Commander, once again proving that she is a DAN-GER-OUS woman to annoy! ;) That expression as she bins that rose is amazing. And I fully believe she would have blown the guy's head off. But we should note that this is yet another blow to the heart that she just holds in.....

GreenMonkey November 29th 04 21:11

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
C. Average ep. I see why it was there, it established things about the Centauri, Home Guard, etc - story building & establishment. The only notable line is the one about Londo's shoes.

tankersley May 19th 08 23:30

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
I used to think this episode was blah, but am lately seeing more shades of interest in it than just Londo's shoes being too tight, especially after seeing the gamut of responses here.

I listened to a verbatim dramatisation of Mark Twain's "The War Prayer", though I'm still trying to understand the connection. Is it regarding those who are attracted to Home Guard but don't yet truly recognise it's about hurting and killing aliens, like Sinclair was acting?

Also, since Sinclair's "They let us win" was likely a reflection of his true anger toward the Minbari after the war, I wonder what changed his mind so he could be so friendly with Delenn in The Gathering.

Why does Kosh shut down?

Cell June 16th 08 02:33

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
New review,

http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/...-107/#more-420

Estelyn May 16th 10 19:06

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
This may not be one of the best episodes, but one thing does strike me upon rewatching: its message is more timely than ever. The paranoia shown is present in so many societies today. Unlike Star Trek, where humans have managed to overcome all such tendencies, B5 shows that we don't learn from the past. Two hundred years are not enough to erase our fears and prejudices.

And yes, I too was very touched by Londo's line about shoes and dancing.

Lennier's Tears August 12th 15 01:42

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
It's a fairly average episode ... There actually isn't anything I dislike in it. There isn't anything really truly fantastic in it, either ... I do like how there's all these story elements that are part of the bigger story and/or minor details that will be relevant later. I like all the Homeguard stuff, I think that would have been a good story even if it wasn't part of the main arc. Ivanova's terrible luck with relationship isn't exactly "main arc" but it's definitely important to the character.

Random little things:
  • That sweater Malcolm wears early on in the episode made me laugh out loud. That suit he wears for the formal event later is nice, though. It has a vaguely 19th century look to it with that collar thing although it's definitely 23rd century B5 universe style :)
  • I sort of want to be judgmental about Ivanova being a terrible judge of character. I mean, the dude is not just a casual bigot, he's actually planning multiple murders. As Garibaldi says, "a man can change a lot in 8 years", but ... sheesh. Malcolm says he and Ivanova spent entire days just talking. What did they talk about? Killing aliens because they "took our jobs" ? :p
  • Sinclair sums up the events from The Gathering for those of us who didn't see the pilot :) He can't be the only person wondering how the poison got into Kosh's system through that encounter suit.
  • Those aren't the same three wives Londo has later on. I mean, they are different actors, they are presumably the same characters. When we meet them, he seems like he's been married to all of them for quite a while.
  • Do only rich Centauri have arranged marriages? There must be some tradition of marrying for love, the concept doesn't seem alien to them.
  • I can see Aria's bald cap wrinkling up in the back of the neck when she turns her head. I think I had the same complaint about Lyndisty in "Sic Transit Vir". I think all the Centauri women who have actual lines are wearing bald caps, while at least some of the background Centauri women are actually bald. I guess if you normally wear your hair long, you're not going to want to cut it all off to appear in a single episode of a show. It takes a long time to grow back and they have jobs where their appearance is kind of important.. So, I get it. But, I don't much like the look of bald caps.
  • Sinclair plays a pretty good bigot :p

Wulf August 12th 15 14:21

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
>Centauri marrying for love

Having just read the Legions of Fire series which deals with the Centauri between the end of the show and the.... things that deal with Centauri for two decades after the show, they went into it a smidge.

Basically it's the same as monarchies in the past. The higher you go in society the less choice you have. You're free to marry for love if your family doesn't need the power that would be gained. The woman is rarely consulted in a meaningful manner.

Lennier's Tears August 12th 15 17:27

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wulf (Post 451832)
>Centauri marrying for love

Having just read the Legions of Fire series which deals with the Centauri between the end of the show and the.... things that deal with Centauri for two decades after the show, they went into it a smidge.

Basically it's the same as monarchies in the past. The higher you go in society the less choice you have. You're free to marry for love if your family doesn't need the power that would be gained. The woman is rarely consulted in a meaningful manner.

Thanks, that makes sense. It's exactly what I would have expected.

Wulf August 17th 15 16:39

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
>that sweater
I caught that too. "That sweater". Enough said.

>poor judge of character
Well, I sort of see it. It's easy to overlook "Damn Bonehead cut in front of me at the grocery story today, go back to Minbar already!" when you're with somebody that looks that incredibly dreamy in a sweater like that. Especially when you're young. I dunno how old the Ivanova character is, but I can see 8 years ago being on the generous side of "young and stupid". So she writes it off as all talk even though she knows he's speciesist, and 8 years can be a long time for a seed of hatred to grow into a mighty oak of intolerance.

Especially if the guy's hanging out with military types that have access to the latest hardware. These would be the guys who are actually paid to kill aliens and have lots of reasons to hate them, so they would not be a calming influence.

Also, she's a terrible judge of character.

>poison into the suit
I believe this scene was lifted from an earlier episode and dropped here for time. It seemed slightly out of place, but probably not enough to care if I hadn't read that somewhere. I'd have preferred they not bring it up if they weren't going to answer the question at some point. All the theories work best if left to the imagination, not so much when even the characters don't know.




It seems like this assassination plot was foiled rather easily and they never try again. The ambassadors are easy targets. No extra security is ever implemented, and it would be easy to slip some guys in to shiv them in a hallway at night.

The stealth suits seem pretty superfluous to the story. They never use them for anything that "hiding behind a box" wouldn't solve, and as mentioned, are never seen again.

Ivanova taking over the coffee growing seems kind of lame. Does it ever come up again? I like that JMS had drop-in replacements for everybody in case of cast changes, but most of the others were unique characters. The coffee thing seems too much like she's dropping into the same character.

In purple, Londo is stunning, even if his shoes are too tight.

Lennier's Tears August 18th 15 20:17

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wulf (Post 451874)

Ivanova taking over the coffee growing seems kind of lame. Does it ever come up again? I like that JMS had drop-in replacements for everybody in case of cast changes, but most of the others were unique characters. The coffee thing seems too much like she's dropping into the same character.

Perhaps the coffee plants are meant to be the same. As in, maybe when Ivanova took over, Takashima gave her a guided tour of the station and custody of her coffee plants. She was leaving, so she wasn't going to be using them anymore. Maybe they were old friends.


As for Ivanova being a terrible judge of character, I do agree that she must have been quite young in 2250. It's a lot easier to miss things when one is young. I myself have been quite surprised by some of the views/opinions expressed by people years (decades? :p ) after I dated them (Isn't Facebook grand?). None of them have turned to murdering people for their beliefs though. Not yet, anyway! :p

Wulf August 19th 15 13:52

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
[QUOTE=Lennier's Tears;451877]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wulf (Post 451874)
None of them have turned to murdering people for their beliefs though.

...That you know of. :wtf:

Lennier's Tears August 19th 15 16:22

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
I suppose that's true :p

Dorvo October 9th 15 18:54

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
I'm rewatching the series and just got to this one. I like the episode overall, and agree that it usefully extends the "anti alien paranoia" thread that eventually becomes so important to the story. The one drawback for me is Shaal Mayan. I find her patronizing and infuriatingly smug, getting snippy with Garibaldi as he's trying to investigate the attack on her, or lecturing Londo on the power of love (not that he couldn't use one--I just object to her tone, and her as the messenger). The worst is the final scene, where she and Delenn and G'Kar are tut-tutting about how full of hate the humans are "for no real reason." Well, lady, trying to exterminate your race has a tendency to tick you off a little. You'd think as a supposedly sensitive poet, she'd get that.

Still, it's a minor blemish in an otherwise good story in a sometimes blemished but overall amazing sci fi series.

Lennier's Tears October 11th 15 17:14

Re: EpDis: The War Prayer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorvo (Post 452016)
I'm rewatching the series and just got to this one. I like the episode overall, and agree that it usefully extends the "anti alien paranoia" thread that eventually becomes so important to the story. The one drawback for me is Shaal Mayan. I find her patronizing and infuriatingly smug, getting snippy with Garibaldi as he's trying to investigate the attack on her, or lecturing Londo on the power of love (not that he couldn't use one--I just object to her tone, and her as the messenger). The worst is the final scene, where she and Delenn and G'Kar are tut-tutting about how full of hate the humans are "for no real reason." Well, lady, trying to exterminate your race has a tendency to tick you off a little. You'd think as a supposedly sensitive poet, she'd get that.

Still, it's a minor blemish in an otherwise good story in a sometimes blemished but overall amazing sci fi series.

I don't find her annoying, but I can definitely see where you're coming from. She's definitely a bit smug here and there. I'm kinda glad I don't find her too annoying because that would take away from my enjoyment of the episode. I tend to be overly sensitive to characters I find annoying. Obviously they don't make the story bad or unrealistic, but I just can't get over how annoying they are ... It's worse with sneakily evil characters, they tend to stress me out.


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