B5TV.COM

B5TV.COM (http://www.b5tv.com/index.php)
-   B5.world (http://www.b5tv.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
-   -   Read Between The Episodes (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=45838)

Looney August 14th 17 15:26

Read Between The Episodes
 
So I decided to start a new thread that will be full of speculation about what might have happened between episodes. This is where I will postulate theories on what I think fans could assume might have been going on during those gaps between episodes. This is where I will imagine what was happening when we weren't told it was happening or had happened. :thumbsup:

I will let people know once again that I have NOT read everything relating to B5. I know some stuff and I don't know some stuff, so when I speculate please don't hesitate to tell me I am wrong and tell me what really happened - Jan has been doing it to me for years. ;) Like I said this will be speculation, but I imagine what I come up with will be some things we could all logically conclude might have happened in the time span between episodes. And maybe I'll even speculate about something that did actually happen in the time frame between episodes that I didn't know happened and someone can tell me I was right. :lol:

As stated, please feel free to correct me and add your own thoughts as well. :thumbsup:

Jan August 14th 17 22:01

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Looney (Post 459111)
Jan has been doing it to me for years. ;)

I live to serve! :p

Something I've always wondered about. Why the heck was Sheridan so easy to convince/persuade about the threat of the Shadows and that there was a war coming? The more I watch, the more I think that could have used some extra exhibition.

Looney August 14th 17 22:58

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 459116)
Something I've always wondered about. Why the heck was Sheridan so easy to convince/persuade about the threat of the Shadows and that there was a war coming? The more I watch, the more I think that could have used some extra exhibition.

Definitely true, but I think you have to remember Spider in The Web, 2.6, where Sheridan mentions his hobby of collecting secrets. We don't know what secrets he's come across on his own that have pointed to the rise of the Shadows. We also know that he does have some secret conspiracy connection to Hague. We know they were monitoring what happened with Santiago, which means they might have had a hint that something else was going on with an unknown new player. I think these are points that can help fill in some answers when it comes to why Sheridan was so easy to convince about the threat of the Shadows. There was stuff going on in the background we weren't always told specifics about, but I feel like we were given hints. I certainly wish we had been given more specifics. ;)

Kraig August 15th 17 07:54

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 459116)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Looney (Post 459111)
Jan has been doing it to me for years. ;)

I live to serve! :p

Something I've always wondered about. Why the heck was Sheridan so easy to convince/persuade about the threat of the Shadows and that there was a war coming? The more I watch, the more I think that could have used some extra exhibition.

It might have something to do with the Icarus and his wife Anna going missing on the planet Z'ha'dum. Then he finds out that is where the Shadows have their home base. He would feel the Shadows were probably responsible and would want to find out more about them to make sure they were not a threat. I don't think it wouldn't take much convincing to get Sheridan to want to get involved.

Looney August 15th 17 14:37

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kraig (Post 459118)

It might have something to do with the Icarus and his wife Anna going missing on the planet Z'ha'dum. Then he finds out that is where the Shadows have their home base. He would feel the Shadows were probably responsible and would want to find out more about them to make sure they were not a threat. I don't think it wouldn't take much convincing to get Sheridan to want to get involved.

Oh yes, definitely also an excellent point. When he learned it was Z'ha'dum, but he might have had his suspicions before that because he knew it was a planet out on The Rim. I think the point is that there were hints, but we all would have loved to see more details or explanation.

KoshFan August 16th 17 03:46

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
The most glaring need for "reading between the episodes" is Sheridan's opinion of G'Kar in "The Long Twilight Struggle." Sheridan says that he doesn't want to go the next ten years without G'Kar's insight. But what insights? What wisdom? Yes, G'Kar was right about the Shadows, and yes, he'd just made a compelling speech in the council chambers about freedom, but most of the interactions we've seen between them at that point were about the Narn-Centauri War (and Narn-Centauri relations in general, as in their scene together early in "The Coming of Shadows").

But having seen the pearls of wisdom G'Kar produced for Catherine Sakai in "Mind War," it's easy to believe that G'Kar has been dispensing insights on a regular basis and we just don't get to see them.

Speaking of Catherine, we must also read between the episodes for her entire relationship with Sinclair. Gone between Mind War and Chrysalis! She and Ivanova have never met on screen before she asks Susan to be maid of honor! It's a pity -- I like Catherine.

Looney August 17th 17 04:39

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 459131)
The most glaring need for "reading between the episodes" is Sheridan's opinion of G'Kar in "The Long Twilight Struggle." Sheridan says that he doesn't want to go the next ten years without G'Kar's insight. But what insights? What wisdom? Yes, G'Kar was right about the Shadows, and yes, he'd just made a compelling speech in the council chambers about freedom, but most of the interactions we've seen between them at that point were about the Narn-Centauri War (and Narn-Centauri relations in general, as in their scene together early in "The Coming of Shadows").

But having seen the pearls of wisdom G'Kar produced for Catherine Sakai in "Mind War," it's easy to believe that G'Kar has been dispensing insights on a regular basis and we just don't get to see them.

And don't forget that Sheridan and G'Kar were actually introduced and spent time together during the Earth-Minbari War. We have no clue what they discussed then or if they had subsequent discussions after that meeting. There is a segment I would love to see; Sheridan, Franklin, and G'Kar traveling to meet Lenonn. And what happened to them when they were released. Did they strike up a friendship? For all we know the three of them were pen pals from that point until they were reunited on B5. :lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 459131)
Speaking of Catherine, we must also read between the episodes for her entire relationship with Sinclair. Gone between Mind War and Chrysalis! She and Ivanova have never met on screen before she asks Susan to be maid of honor! It's a pity -- I like Catherine.

Yes it would have been nice to see more of an explanation. I mean honestly should could have gone to Minbar with Sinclair, but that was never her style.

Looney August 22nd 17 00:22

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
So I have been thinking about this. Should I start yet another re-watch and try to go episode by episode with this Read Between The Episodes? The one around The Gathering would have to be the pre-episode and between the episodes. :lol:

Foxchild August 22nd 17 02:15

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
There's the gap between In the Beginning and the Gathering. How, exactly, were 1-3 taken down. And how were people convinced to keep building them? Did the Grey Council have some super-secret Valan prophecy that said to make darn sure they finished at least one of those things?

And is there anything canon on what happened to Takashima? Would have been cool if she got promoted to captain her own ship and if they had been able to get the actress back to help Sheridan retake Earth, or, more interestingly, fight against him.

Looney August 22nd 17 06:00

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxchild (Post 459183)
There's the gap between In the Beginning and the Gathering. How, exactly, were 1-3 taken down. And how were people convinced to keep building them? Did the Grey Council have some super-secret Valan prophecy that said to make darn sure they finished at least one of those things?

A very good question. I'm not sure if there is any specific info on who sabotaged the other stations, but I think reading between the lines of what we did learn on screen I'd have to assume it was an Earth First group. Shame JMS didn't give us more detail on the responsible party and whether or not they were ever brought to justice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxchild (Post 459183)
And is there anything canon on what happened to Takashima? Would have been cool if she got promoted to captain her own ship and if they had been able to get the actress back to help Sheridan retake Earth, or, more interestingly, fight against him.

I am pretty tired and not thinking too clearly, but I believe Takashima and Kyle were reassigned because of the Kosh incident, just like Lyta. Earth wanted to know all they knew about the Vorlon. Reading between the lines you have to remember they crossed a pretty big line, so maybe the Vorlons pressured Earth to punish them in some way. The Vorlon's weren't going to mess with Sinclair's path, but they might have wanted some retribution for being disobeyed. But like I said, I believe it is mentioned they were reassigned because of what they learned. Can't remember specifics right now. ;)

KoshFan August 22nd 17 19:25

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
I don't remember ever getting an in-universe explanation about why Takashima left. As to what would have happened to her -- that we already know, via Word of JMS. He pointed out that there were many clues pointing to Takashima as a member of the internal conspiracy that led to President Clarke. So she would not have stayed long past Season 1, I think, after shooting Garibaldi in the back. Then Ivanova would have come on as her replacement.

Kyle and Lyta were definitely reassigned because of their contact with Kosh, though.


As to B1 through B3, I think the canonical explanation from JMS was that most of the funding was left over because construction never got far on any of those. All they really had to replace were the I-beams, etc. Babylon 4 got all the remaining money. Then when B4 mysteriously vanished, B5 was built on a much tighter budget, was never really finished, and needed a ton of Minbari funding even still.

As to how people were convinced to keep building them... I used to find that a little hard to believe, but then my hometown decided to replace a highway viaduct with a tunnel in just about the worst possible place, with less functionality than the viaduct it was replacing, and persisted when the bigger-than-ever-before-and-therefore-untested tunnel borer got stuck for over a year after digging just five hundred yards of tunnel. Why? Because contracts had been signed and powerful construction interests have been committed to the project for a long time. So I suspect B1 through B4 were all built by the same contractor, who lobbied pretty hard for the right to finish the job.


In a (slightly) less cynical take, I've had a private theory about the Babylon Project for a long time. The first Babylon station was begun soon after the war, right after EarthForce had essentially been demolished. (They put almost everything they had into the Battle of the Line and almost nothing survived.) EarthForce needed time to build back up, but also the wiser folks probably saw that they needed allies. In other words, diplomacy was now crucial: unable to fight anyone, Earth was forced to talk. The Babylon Project was a way of doing that, plus a way of reminding the other races "Hey, we're still here!" So they'd keep rebuilding the sabotaged stations because they still needed that diplomatic cover.

By the time B4 was hijacked, however, EarthForce was back in action. The Omega-class destroyers were coming on-line and were probably more to the generals' taste. Sheridan and Agamemnon were out showing the flag, making themselves useful, and being pretty diplomatic, but they were also able to fight like hell if they had to. So the Babylon Project had outlived its military usefulness, just as it finally got a station built.

Note that my two theories are totally compatible, by the way.

Looney August 23rd 17 18:18

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 459190)
So the Babylon Project had outlived its military usefulness, just as it finally got a station built..

I disagree with this part of your theory, but I also disagree with the logic that after the Interstellar Alliance was formed B5 became less and less necessary. HA! That seems utterly ludicrous, but I have always accepted it because it is JMS' story and that is the way he took it. :thumbsup: I think time and again the show proved Babylon 5's military usefulness with episodes like GROPOS, S2E10 and others. ;)

KoshFan August 24th 17 00:06

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
That's true enough -- and since that wasn't really what I was trying to say, I'd better clarify.

I meant that (in my personal theory) the Babylon Project was begun as the EA's one line of defense after the fleet was destroyed, but by the time B5 was finally finished, they had a fleet again. So what had begun as "Last Best Hope for Peace" was downgraded (in the minds of the Joint Chiefs and other EA bigwigs) to "forward outpost." Still useful but not crucial, which is why people were practically hinting that it should be abandoned. Whereas in the earlier stages of the project it was still seen as crucial, hence the willingness to keep putting time and money into it after all the sabotage.

Looney August 31st 17 22:11

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Well I have been and will continue to be pretty busy until Wednesday when my nephew and his family have come and gone. Trying to find some time to re-watch both versions of The Gathering and take some notes. I already have a few things I want to say, but it would be better if things were fresh in my mind as it has been a few months since I watched either version. ;)

b5historyman September 5th 17 10:28

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Laurel Takashima, was a double agent with an implanted personality, working for the pro Earth Homeguard. It was her that allowed the Minbari assassin into Varner's quarters and erased logs of the transport tube failure. This was being done to disrupt relations with the Vorlons and the Earth Alliance, by framing Sinclair for the assassination attempt and isolating Earth. Working through third parties (Del Varner and the Narn, who saw an opportunity to use a situation to their advantage and forge closer ties with the Vorlons and the Minbari) Homeguard make a deal with the extremist elements in the Wind Swords clan of the Minbari Warrior Caste opposed to the Babylon Project. They would have made an uneasy ally for the Homeguard, but also a readymade scapegoat for their actions, framing the Minbari for the attempt on Kosh’s life, and to hide Laurel’s role.


Her implanted personality was consistent with Psi Corps having sleeper agents acting as their eyes and ears in important Earth Alliance positions, something Jason Ironheart first warned about in 2258. She was put through the sleeper program shortly after her arriving on Mars in 2251. As she worked her way up, reporting secretly back to Psi Corps on EarthForce activities and even getting recruited into the Homeguard to spy on them. When EarthForce investigated the incident, it’s likely that Psi Corps were able to influence the result getting Laurel reassigned to the Rim, keeping their agent out of harm’s way. With no sleeper agent within Babylon 5, they have Talia Winters reassigned to the station filling the vacancy for a commercial telepath.

Looney September 5th 17 15:14

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 459283)
Laurel Takashima, was a double agent with an implanted personality, working for the pro Earth Homeguard. It was her that allowed the Minbari assassin into Varner's quarters and erased logs of the transport tube failure. This was being done to disrupt relations with the Vorlons and the Earth Alliance, by framing Sinclair for the assassination attempt and isolating Earth. Working through third parties (Del Varner and the Narn, who saw an opportunity to use a situation to their advantage and forge closer ties with the Vorlons and the Minbari) Homeguard make a deal with the extremist elements in the Wind Swords clan of the Minbari Warrior Caste opposed to the Babylon Project. They would have made an uneasy ally for the Homeguard, but also a readymade scapegoat for their actions, framing the Minbari for the attempt on Koshís life, and to hide Laurelís role.


Her implanted personality was consistent with Psi Corps having sleeper agents acting as their eyes and ears in important Earth Alliance positions, something Jason Ironheart first warned about in 2258. She was put through the sleeper program shortly after her arriving on Mars in 2251. As she worked her way up, reporting secretly back to Psi Corps on EarthForce activities and even getting recruited into the Homeguard to spy on them. When EarthForce investigated the incident, itís likely that Psi Corps were able to influence the result getting Laurel reassigned to the Rim, keeping their agent out of harmís way. With no sleeper agent within Babylon 5, they have Talia Winters reassigned to the station filling the vacancy for a commercial telepath.

I think I love you. ;)


A topic I was thinking about discussing is how well it works when reading between the episodes to realize that when Laurel is describing meeting Sinclair on Mars that would have been the perfect time for her to have become a sleeper agent; a fact I only recently learned thanks to these B5 communities. It would have been so awesome to find this out directly in the show. So Laurel was reassigned to the Rim where she did what damage? Is there an answer to that somewhere or is that open material for some fan fiction?

b5historyman PLEASE check back here when you can. I LOVE to speculate, but I also l LOVE to find out the truth, if there is some truth and as long as I like what it says. LOL :guffaw: I figure with you, Jan, Marcus, and the host of other (Super-Fans, Mega-Fans, Ultimate-Fans, Fanatical-Fans, or whatever name we choose to call ourselves?) I will keep learning what I don't already know. :)

Jan September 5th 17 15:59

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Looney (Post 459284)
I figure with you, Jan, Marcus, and the host of other (Super-Fans, Mega-Fans, Ultimate-Fans, Fanatical-Fans, or whatever name we choose to call ourselves?) I will keep learning what I don't already know. :)

This is the title I generally go by - 'awarded' by a fellow fan back in the Usenet days.

Her Most Serene Highness Empress Jan of the Babylonian Empire, Goddess of Eeps, Honored Denizen of rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated, Transcriber for the Great Maker, Engraver of the images of the faithful and the Great Maker, Archivist of the Sacred Scripts of the Babylon 5 Universe.

But hey, friends can just call me 'Your Worship'. :p

Looney September 5th 17 21:36

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
:guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw:

How about "H.M.S.H.E.J.O.T.B.E.G.O.E.H.D.O.R.A.S.T.B.5.M.T.F .T.G.M.E.O.T.I.O.T.F.A.T.G.M.A.O.T.S.S.O.T.B.5.U." for short Your Worship?! :lol: ;)

Jan September 6th 17 01:23

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Looney (Post 459287)
:guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw:

How about "H.M.S.H.E.J.O.T.B.E.G.O.E.H.D.O.R.A.S.T.B.5.M.T.F .T.G.M.E.O.T.I.O.T.F.A.T.G.M.A.O.T.S.S.O.T.B.5.U." for short Your Worship?! :lol: ;)

NEVER! I refuse to have my illustrious self reduced to a nickname! You can just copy/paste like everybody else! :p

The *nerve* of some people...

Kraig September 6th 17 03:54

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 459283)
Laurel Takashima, was a double agent with an implanted personality, working for the pro Earth Homeguard. It was her that allowed the Minbari assassin into Varner's quarters and erased logs of the transport tube failure. This was being done to disrupt relations with the Vorlons and the Earth Alliance, by framing Sinclair for the assassination attempt and isolating Earth. Working through third parties (Del Varner and the Narn, who saw an opportunity to use a situation to their advantage and forge closer ties with the Vorlons and the Minbari) Homeguard make a deal with the extremist elements in the Wind Swords clan of the Minbari Warrior Caste opposed to the Babylon Project. They would have made an uneasy ally for the Homeguard, but also a readymade scapegoat for their actions, framing the Minbari for the attempt on Koshís life, and to hide Laurelís role.


Her implanted personality was consistent with Psi Corps having sleeper agents acting as their eyes and ears in important Earth Alliance positions, something Jason Ironheart first warned about in 2258. She was put through the sleeper program shortly after her arriving on Mars in 2251. As she worked her way up, reporting secretly back to Psi Corps on EarthForce activities and even getting recruited into the Homeguard to spy on them. When EarthForce investigated the incident, itís likely that Psi Corps were able to influence the result getting Laurel reassigned to the Rim, keeping their agent out of harmís way. With no sleeper agent within Babylon 5, they have Talia Winters reassigned to the station filling the vacancy for a commercial telepath.

She was probably reassigned to San Diego.

Looney September 7th 17 00:33

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 459289)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Looney (Post 459287)
:guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw:

How about "H.M.S.H.E.J.O.T.B.E.G.O.E.H.D.O.R.A.S.T.B.5.M.T.F .T.G.M.E.O.T.I.O.T.F.A.T.G.M.A.O.T.S.S.O.T.B.5.U." for short Your Worship?! :lol: ;)

NEVER! I refuse to have my illustrious self reduced to a nickname! You can just copy/paste like everybody else! :p

The *nerve* of some people...

:guffaw: Yes I do have some "*nerve*" Your Worship. I will try to keep that in check lest I be punished. :lol: ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kraig (Post 459295)

She was probably reassigned to San Diego.

I have become so intrigued by this plot turn. I really wish it had been mentioned in later seasons. Even with where the story went with Talia there could have been some line of dialogue that revealed Takashima was also a sleeper agent. :( I guess I just wish it had happened because it is a loose end and I hate loose ends. :rolleyes:

Looney September 18th 17 15:59

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
So I started The Gathering Original Edit again last night. I didn't make it very far because it was late and it had been a long day. It is a strange experience to watch it again knowing what I now know about Takashima. I am only ten or fifteen minutes in, but I am taking notes.

First point I will bring up: Londo Narration.

Doesn't this make it seem like Londo is the focal character? And isn't it interesting that he also narrates In The Beginning. This isn't really a new thought on my part and we know other characters do narration. It's just interesting that in the original the first thing we get is Londo's voice. It makes me wonder why JMS decided to start with him?

BTW, re-watched Problem Child (1990) this weekend. Juarsik is so excellent as the jerk dad. And I wonder what the deal is that he gets a featuring credit during the end credits before the actor's credits scroll?

KoshFan September 20th 17 04:05

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Looney (Post 459386)
And I wonder what the deal is that he gets a featuring credit during the end credits before the actor's credits scroll?

In "Problem Child" or in B5? Though it may not matter; credit sequence is almost invariably the result of contracts. While the leading actors get their names first, the most important supporting actors get their names last. I guess the theory is that the audience may tune out for the middle, so stick the lesser-paid actors there?

Looney September 20th 17 21:25

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Problem Child. I assume it was contractual, but it is still odd. The first thing the end credit scroll says is


Featuring
Peter Jurasik.


Then the normal credit scroll starts and he is listed 7th. It seems awkward that he would somehow have gotten that agreed to in his contract. Anyway, it all amounts to a neat bit of trivia unless someone knows Peter and can ask him? And if so I have a billion other questions, chief among them is whether or not he is interested in becoming friends with a man who is going to ask him a billion questions about his various acting roles - most involving Babylon 5. ;) :guffaw: :lol: :guffaw:

Looney October 1st 17 15:45

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Quick question hot shots, I have finished both versions of The Gathering. Lots of thoughts and I took a TON of notes this time. So I would like some opinions. Should I start a new thread titled Reading Between The Episodes: The Gathering? Should I just put these thoughts under an existing Gathering Thread? Or should I just put them here? I am leaning toward a totally new thread only because this one got a little more general than I planned and a new thread title might make more people stop to read and comment. I also wouldn't mind the other two options, but for the above fact I just mentioned. So please take the time to let your opinions be heard on this subject. I think this is especially important for The Gathering because some of the choices made for the Special Edition are so strange to me. I mean what a wonderful opportunity to get a chance to redo a pilot episode and I still feel the original pulls off some scenes better than the remake. Of course that opinion goes the other way too. I may need to gather all the existing footage from WB and make my own version. :lol: Anywhooooo hope to hear from you soon! ;)

Jan October 1st 17 22:47

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
I vote new thread.

Raw Shark October 2nd 17 00:40

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Yes, new thread. I've been thinking lately about The Gathering, too.

Raw Shark

"The facts have been altered!"
Jim Garrison

Looney October 7th 17 05:22

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
WOW! I tried to let this sit to get some responses and I appreciate the two of you who responded, but where is everyone else?!?!?!?!?!?!?! :mad:

Anyway, new thread wins. I will be honest I am having a difficult time with what I want to say. I have watched both versions of The Gathering and taken A LOT of notes. I am over thinking it now and trying to come up with something interesting to say. :guffaw::lol::guffaw: Hopefully I will have it edited down soon. :guffaw: :rolleyes:

Kraig October 7th 17 07:50

Re: Read Between The Episodes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Looney (Post 459532)
WOW! I tried to let this sit to get some responses and I appreciate the two of you who responded, but where is everyone else?!?!?!?!?!?!?! :mad:

Anyway, new thread wins. I will be honest I am having a difficult time with what I want to say. I have watched both versions of The Gathering and taken A LOT of notes. I am over thinking it now and trying to come up with something interesting to say. :guffaw::lol::guffaw: Hopefully I will have it edited down soon. :guffaw: :rolleyes:

We're waiting for the new thread.:drool:


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:29.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2001 - 2008 B5TV.COM