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B5_Obsessed March 17th 14 16:55

Re: Telepath War
 
And Value Judgments would have picked up that thread, with Bester emerging from his post TW hiding place to command the remaining telepath ships and forces that had escaped detection and leading a final assault, presumably against Earth. It all ends with Garibaldi being notified that Bester has resurfaced.

Republibot 3.0 March 17th 14 22:06

Re: Telepath War
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raw Shark (Post 447446)
Patricia Tallman was supposed to be in the Crusade episode 'The Path of Sorrows,' which was to depict Lyta's death, self-detonating using her super-telepath abilities to destroy the hidden Psi Corps headquarters. She wasn't available,

According to HER, that's not what happened. She said JMS called her up and said "I got a great script for you," and she said "Send it by" and then she never heard from him again. Availability wasn't an issue.

I heard someone else (Possibly JMS, but I don't remember. It was someone connected to the show, though) say that the network just didn't want to use Pat. They felt it would be confusing to viewers to bring in characters from B5, they thought she was too old, a buncha' stuff.

Both of those stories are probably true. OTOH, the rumors that they actually FILMED Pat's scenes, then cut 'em and re-shot 'em with another actress are certainly untrue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raw Shark (Post 447446)
Although the episode makes it looks like this attack is the final nail in Psi Corps' coffin, I think it's the breaking point, after which the shit really hits the fan.

Eh. It's a theory. My own theory (No more valid than yours) is that we were watching the climax. JMS likes to show us scenes without context so that we only figure them out later on. So we know what we saw, but we don't know what it meant. So I tend to think that was the last nail, and that the Psi Corps movie/trilogy, had it/they ever been made, would have culminated with that.

Republibot 3.0 March 17th 14 22:16

Re: Telepath War
 
[QUOTE=Jan;447452]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raw Shark (Post 447446)
It's certain that she died during the Telepath war and it *seems* conclusive that this was the incident since in the Crusade Writer's Bible, JMS wrote that she and Lennier die during the TW and the original draft of the script that featured her has a back view of a Minbari fighting with a pike and she calls Lennier's name just before the explosion.

So what the hell happened, anyway? Did Billy Mumy punch JMS' mom in the mouth, or bluster in while JMS was having an unfortunate bowel movement, which he then recorded and played over the PA system? Did he GET the part because he had pictures of JMS naked with a goat, and then get booted once JMS's detectives managed to burn the pictures and negatives?

I ask because, seriously, SOMETHING must have happened to make Mumy fall from favor. He's all over the place in Seasons 1-4, and though he's not the star, he is definitely a shining light, and he just brought so much to every scene. No offence to Stephen Furst, who did a great job, but Mumy was just chocolate-coated chocolate awesome with chocolate filling. And it was obvious that Lannier was being built up for some greater destiny. He had a future in front of him. It was probably something he wouldn't survive, but it was important.

Annnnnnnnnnnd then he's barely in Season 5, and he betrays his own character in a clumsy change of heart/change back scene. And then he's re-cast as an extra and dies with barely a namecheck.

Seriously: What the frack?

I mean, something MUST have happened.

Also, I'm not buying for a minute that the original plan called for him to die in the Telepath war. Dying rescuing Delen and Sheridan, that I could buy, but being bumped off like that in Crusade?

Nope, nope, nope, not buying it. Something musta' happened. JMS gets pissed, he kills your character.

KoshN March 17th 14 23:40

Re: Telepath War
 
[QUOTE=Republibot 3.0;447593]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 447452)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raw Shark (Post 447446)
It's certain that she died during the Telepath war and it *seems* conclusive that this was the incident since in the Crusade Writer's Bible, JMS wrote that she and Lennier die during the TW and the original draft of the script that featured her has a back view of a Minbari fighting with a pike and she calls Lennier's name just before the explosion.

So what the hell happened, anyway? Did Billy Mumy punch JMS' mom in the mouth, or bluster in while JMS was having an unfortunate bowel movement, which he then recorded and played over the PA system? Did he GET the part because he had pictures of JMS naked with a goat, and then get booted once JMS's detectives managed to burn the pictures and negatives?

I ask because, seriously, SOMETHING must have happened to make Mumy fall from favor. He's all over the place in Seasons 1-4, and though he's not the star, he is definitely a shining light, and he just brought so much to every scene. No offence to Stephen Furst, who did a great job, but Mumy was just chocolate-coated chocolate awesome with chocolate filling. And it was obvious that Lannier was being built up for some greater destiny. He had a future in front of him. It was probably something he wouldn't survive, but it was important.

Annnnnnnnnnnd then he's barely in Season 5, and he betrays his own character in a clumsy change of heart/change back scene. And then he's re-cast as an extra and dies with barely a namecheck.

Seriously: What the frack?

I mean, something MUST have happened.

Also, I'm not buying for a minute that the original plan called for him to die in the Telepath war. Dying rescuing Delen and Sheridan, that I could buy, but being bumped off like that in Crusade?

Nope, nope, nope, not buying it. Something musta' happened. JMS gets pissed, he kills your character.

Don't forget Lyta. Both Lennier AND Lyta were to have died in The Path of Sorrows (Matheson's flashback).

Seems like JMS can hold a grudge forever and be a tad spiteful.

Raw Shark March 18th 14 00:09

Re: Telepath War
 
Hmm, I haven't heard anything about Bill Mumy and a falling out or anything like that. He was at the Phoenix convention, no problems that I could see. But the circumstances of Andrea Thompson and Claudia Christian were less than ideal, and they were there too.

Yes, just a theory of mine. And much like what you said about JMS showing us a scene and then it turns out to be different from what we think we're seeing, I think he showed us the Psi Corps HQ being obliterated because it looked like the end of the Telepath War. But he loves going back to an event, and revealing something new about it. I love when he does this. I think that something new in this case is that it appears to Matheson and the others in the flashback that the war is over, but it isn't, it's about to get much worse. Psi Corps' leaders have gathered at HQ because they think they're about to crush the Resistance. Instead, they get vaporized, and the Resistance base is deserted. The war is not over. Bester is not there, or he'd be dead. The Corps has telepaths all over Earth, Mars and the colonies, and of course in hyperspace, aboard the Motherships. It is said in the books or someplace that Bester becomes leader of the Corps during the conflict. The death of his superiors would pave the way for him to fill the vacuum. Psi Corps is on the ropes after losing their HQ, and may face a backlash from EarthDome for having let the war get so far out of control. Nuclear weaponry being detonated on the homeworld would shake any confidence that the Corps has a solid plan to end the crisis. The EA President might have a plan to bring the Corps under much stronger supervision, and let normals force a solution to the telepath problem. Bester can't allow that, it would undo generations of work, and put his telepaths in danger. And he has options.

Sheridan mentions something in 'A Call to Arms' about the last time he showed up in Earth space with an alien fleet, referring to his campaign to oust Clark, right? Or, what if this is yet another bit of misdirection, and he's really talking about when he had to take a war fleet to Earth AGAIN, to kick the Corps out of power because Bester has gone around the bend, and his reign of terror is far worse than anything Clark did? Leading a decapitated and weakened Psi Corps, he activates the sleeper agents, takes over Earthforce, moves to crush the Resistance, and seizes control of EarthGov, all at the same time. Telepaths would be in control, and normals would become subjects, just like he said years ago in 'Ship of Tears.' The 'thought police' nightmare would soon be a reality. And once Sheridan found out what had happened, what choice would he have? Can you imagine the Telepath War being resolved without Sheridan leading his coalition into the fray? JMS has described the war as a conflict between Psi Corps and Lyta's Resistance, with normals caught in the middle. Maybe all of the normals.

Raw Shark

"Let's just say I have ambitions, and leave it at that."
Alfred Bester, 'Ship of Tears'

Jan March 18th 14 01:45

Re: Telepath War
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 447590)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raw Shark (Post 447446)
Patricia Tallman was supposed to be in the Crusade episode 'The Path of Sorrows,' which was to depict Lyta's death, self-detonating using her super-telepath abilities to destroy the hidden Psi Corps headquarters. She wasn't available,

According to HER, that's not what happened. She said JMS called her up and said "I got a great script for you," and she said "Send it by" and then she never heard from him again. Availability wasn't an issue.

I heard someone else (Possibly JMS, but I don't remember. It was someone connected to the show, though) say that the network just didn't want to use Pat. They felt it would be confusing to viewers to bring in characters from B5, they thought she was too old, a buncha' stuff.

I think you're mixing up your stories. Bottom line was that she turned it down because of money. They (Babylonian) offered what they could, she felt it wasn't enough. I'd imagine that JMS simply phrased it as an availability matter because it's none of our business.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 447593)
I ask because, seriously, SOMETHING must have happened to make Mumy fall from favor. He's all over the place in Seasons 1-4, and though he's not the star, he is definitely a shining light, and he just brought so much to every scene. No offence to Stephen Furst, who did a great job, but Mumy was just chocolate-coated chocolate awesome with chocolate filling. And it was obvious that Lannier was being built up for some greater destiny. He had a future in front of him. It was probably something he wouldn't survive, but it was important.

Annnnnnnnnnnd then he's barely in Season 5, and he betrays his own character in a clumsy change of heart/change back scene. And then he's re-cast as an extra and dies with barely a namecheck.

Seriously: What the frack?

I mean, something MUST have happened.

Also, I'm not buying for a minute that the original plan called for him to die in the Telepath war. Dying rescuing Delen and Sheridan, that I could buy, but being bumped off like that in Crusade?

Nope, nope, nope, not buying it. Something musta' happened. JMS gets pissed, he kills your character.

Wow, seriously? It never occurred to you that it might be a budget issue? <sarcasm> Yeah, JMS was so pissed at Mumy that he gave him (and Peter David) a writing assignment for season 5. Boy, howdy, that's sure pissed all right. </sarcasm> And while that script was spiked, there's at least as much evidence that it was because JMS changed his mind about how the Centauri War was going to go as anything else. I know, because *I've got the script* and I've offered the synopsis here a number of times.

You can 'buy' anything you want about the plans for him to die during the Telepath War but it's in black and white in the Crusade Bible. In fact, their paragraphs are one after the other:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crusade Writer's Bible dated June 18, 1998
Lennier, former aide to Delenn, is deceased, killed in action during the telepath crisis in 2265

Lyta Alexander, who helped create a forct to bring down the Psi Corps, was also killed in action during the telepath crisis.

Anyway, remember that Claudia pissed him off plenty but her character didn't get killed off. :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN
Don't forget Lyta. Both Lennier AND Lyta were to have died in The Path of Sorrows (Matheson's flashback).

Seems like JMS can hold a grudge forever and be a tad spiteful.

So you're saying that Pat Tallman pissed him off somehow? How? We're talking about the FIRST draft of "The Path of Sorrows", written before she was ever even contacted about the part.

And the script specifies that we only see Lennier from the back. There would be no reason to pay for Mumy to have been there at all. Any more than there would have been for Doyle to appear in 'Value Judgments' since Garibaldi would only have been seen from the back, too. Babylonian didn't spend money unnecessarily and having either of those actors for those scenes would have been a complete waste.

Jan

Springer March 18th 14 10:14

Re: Telepath War
 
Going from what I remember being discussed at the time I also thought Pat's non-involvement was down to money, and how small the role was (I'm sure I remember a quote from her where she wasn't impressed at all with what she was offered). Pat and JMS still work together today Pat works with him on Studio JMS so I don't see how they had a falling out. I'll dig through my B5 magazines this evening and see if I can find it.

Regarding Lennier, I remember Mumy saying he wasn't happy with how his character betrayed Sheridan but nothing else. I do find it odd that Lennier ended up dying in the Telepath War as the telepath plot never had anything to do with Lennier, but I guess that is an untold story of how Lennier and Lyta came to work together. All things considered, I think Lennier had plenty of time spent on him over the five seasons. He was only in 6 or 7 episodes in season 1 and the same again in season 2, remember. From season 3 onwards he seemed to get a larger role, mainly helping out on the White Star. In season 5 he had a great little heroic arc when he went off looking for proof that Centauri ships were behind the attacks.

Delenn was certainly training Lennier to replace her one day, but once Lennier fell in love with her, I think his path was set.

Jan March 18th 14 11:02

Re: Telepath War
 
From JMS: http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-6177

I do recall there being some bitterness on Pat's part as written in the Andy Lane book. But if my memory serves, it might well have had something to do with her then-husband Jeffrey Willerth having been fired from the show. Grudges anybody?

Jan

Republibot 3.0 March 18th 14 13:08

Re: Telepath War
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 447596)

Don't forget Lyta. Both Lennier AND Lyta were to have died in The Path of Sorrows (Matheson's flashback).

Seems like JMS can hold a grudge forever and be a tad spiteful.

True. Well, I can understand Lyta dying. That seems to be her destiny all along (Note that she wasn't in Sleeping in Light, filmed prior to season 5 where Lyta got entirely too much screen time) And Lannier wasn't there either. I have no problem with them dying eventually, you know, like Sheridan and Londo and G'Kar did. But those served a grander purpose. Lyta too (Evidently).

Lannier feels like he was yanked from the show.

Republibot 3.0 March 18th 14 13:16

Re: Telepath War
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 447605)
I think you're mixing up your stories. Bottom line was that she turned it down because of money. They (Babylonian) offered what they could, she felt it wasn't enough. I'd imagine that JMS simply phrased it as an availability matter because it's none of our business.

Hadn't heard that one, but it works. A bit odd that she wouldn't do it for old times sake, but, hey, everyone makes bum decisions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 447605)
Wow, seriously? It never occurred to you that it might be a budget issue? <sarcasm>

Of course it did. We seldom had the entire cast on the show at the same time ever. There was more of that in S5, though. But aren't principle cast actors salaried? I mean, don't they get paid whether they're in an episode or not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 447605)
Yeah, JMS was so pissed at Mumy that he gave him (and Peter David) a writing assignment for season 5. Boy, howdy, that's sure pissed all right. </sarcasm> And while that script was spiked, there's at least as much evidence that it was because JMS changed his mind about how the Centauri War was going to go as anything else. I know, because *I've got the script* and I've offered the synopsis here a number of times.

Jan, you've got to calm down. I asked a question in a humorous fashion, that's all. I asked because I don't know. That's why people ask questions: Because they don't know. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I'm happy you know more than I do. That's why I asked the question: So I could know more than I did. And now I do. So thank you, and please calm down.

[QUOTE=Jan;447605]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crusade Writer's Bible dated June 18, 1998
Lennier, former aide to Delenn, is deceased, killed in action during the telepath crisis in 2265

Yes, I know. I've got it.

Though if I were to follow my "JMS is pissed at Bill" theory through, that wouldn't prove anything as it would have been written at some point AFTER he theoretically got pissed at him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 447605)
Anyway, remember that Claudia pissed him off plenty but her character didn't get killed off. :p

He couldn't. She'd already filmed "Sleeping in Light."


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