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Springer February 12th 14 23:17

Michael O'Hare
 
I've been able to find the time recently to have a little bit of a re-watch of season 1 and have managed to get through the first 12 episodes in two days. One of the things that has really struck home on this rewatch is what a superb job Michael O'Hare did, and in hindsight knowing what he was going through it makes his work seem even more extraordinary. O'Hare came in for a lot of stick from people saying he was wooden, but I honestly don't see it (seriously, tell me a scene where you think he was wooden?). I think part of it is due to people's expectations of what the lead of a show like B5 should be like, but the character of Sinclair was never meant to be charismatic like Kirk or Sheridan. What O'Hare, and in turn Sinclair, had in abundance was gravitas - he had a presence and his voice was just great, it commanded respect and authority and he played the role of the traumatised commander superbly in my opinion. So I just wanted to recognise the work that O'Hare did and I'll always value season one for his performance as Sinclair.

KoshN February 13th 14 00:52

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
I always liked O'Hare's performance except for his scenes with Blaire Baron (in The Gathering), with whom he had zero chemistry. That scene, discussing The Battle of the Line was filled with bad acting, by both of them. It was just a bad scene. They should've done it a few more times and had good direction.

Raw Shark February 13th 14 20:42

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
I was really disappointed when Michael O'Hare left the series. The character and O'Hare's performance really grew on me. I always thought it was plausible that the rumors were true, Warner Bros. wanted him replaced in order to renew the show for a second season. It just sounded right, partly because so many people complained about his performance. As it turns out, it was about mental health issues, and that certainly does add a new layer to his tenure. A man trying to hold it together playing a man trying to hold it together, I'm not sure how often that happens.

I have also been confused by the criticism that he was 'wooden,' because given Sinclair's tastes throughout the first season, it was obvious to me early on that he was a stoic individual. The Tennyson recordings, talking about meditating with the Jesuits, breathing exercises, appreciating the solitude of C&C when no one is there, staring at the Japanese stone garden, 'walking in the green' when G'Kar finds him, everything points to someone who needs contemplative time to himself, someone trying to construct and maintain a calm center. The character has wartime pain inside that he generally doesn't want to talk about, but sometimes it comes out, like in 'And the Sky Full of Stars.' Although JMS has stated that it was a mistake to make his character so complete (or 'arrived' is the word he used), who would not be as interesting to watch go through the hero's journey throughout the story (paraphrasing), I think Sinclair was one of the best-written characters in the entire series. After the shallow, not-much-to-them characters in Star Trek: the Next Generation (who talks about chocolate that much?!?), it was a relief to find a lead with real depth, a painful past, hopes for the future, and even a death wish. I love the idea of a leader who appears to be stable, but hides serious flaws within, who then has to take on an increasingly important role in a universe that's much more dangerous than he's ready for. And from time to time, circumstances force him out of his carefully-built shell of serenity, and when that happens Sinclair usually turns explosive. If he had remained, Sinclair might have been a time bomb. It's too bad we missed out on whatever JMS had planned for his death wish.

My favorite O'Hare performances were in 'Soul Hunter,' 'Infection' (I still think the most underrated episode in many ways, even JMS says it's one of his least favorites), 'And the Sky Full of Stars' of course, 'Deathwalker,' 'By Any Means Necessary,' and 'Chrysalis.' His voice was astounding. I used to crank the opening credits through my biggest speakers because his narration sounded so good, so deep, it was haunting and inspiring.

I was so glad O'Hare came back for 'War Without End,' and I was glad to hear the real story for his departure last year in Phoenix. That was a very cool convention, I hope there will be another one.

Raw Shark

"Be careful, Ambassador. Not every dream I've heard lately ends well for you."
Commander Sinclair

Ubik February 13th 14 23:24

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Completely agree. His performance always seemed very restrained and nuanced to me. I was always intrigued by the 'original' arc that JMS had planned. What we got was great, but it would have indeed been fascinating to see it played out with Sinclair in place (had other circumstances been more favourable).

**And HELLO! to everyone here at B5TV, some of you will know me from JMS News already. Same user ID. More when I get time folks!

KoshN February 14th 14 00:35

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raw Shark (Post 446423)
I was really disappointed when Michael O'Hare left the series. The character and O'Hare's performance really grew on me. I always thought it was plausible that the rumors were true, Warner Bros. wanted him replaced in order to renew the show for a second season. It just sounded right, partly because so many people complained about his performance. As it turns out, it was about mental health issues, and that certainly does add a new layer to his tenure. A man trying to hold it together playing a man trying to hold it together, I'm not sure how often that happens.

I have also been confused by the criticism NSPUCY 8:00AM (M4K)-> East Palestine, Short Turn Assist Until Released.that he was 'wooden,' because given Sinclair's tastes throughout the first season, it was obvious to me early on that he was a stoic individual. The Tennyson recordings, talking about meditating with the Jesuits, breathing exercises, appreciating the solitude of C&C when no one is there, staring at the Japanese stone garden, 'walking in the green' when G'Kar finds him, everything points to someone who needs contemplative time to himself, someone trying to construct and maintain a calm center. The character has wartime pain inside that he generally doesn't want to talk about, but sometimes it comes out, like in 'And the Sky Full of Stars.' Although JMS has stated that it was a mistake to make his character so complete (or 'arrived' is the word he used), who would not be as interesting to watch go through the hero's journey throughout the story (paraphrasing), I think Sinclair was one of the best-written characters in the entire series. After the shallow, not-much-to-them characters in Star Trek: the Next Generation (who talks about chocolate that much?!?), it was a relief to find a lead with real depth, a painful past, hopes for the future, and even a death wish. I love the idea of a leader who appears to be stable, but hides serious flaws within, who then has to take on an increasingly important role in a universe that's much more dangerous than he's ready for. And from time to time, circumstances force him out of his carefully-built shell of serenity, and when that happens Sinclair usually turns explosive. If he had remained, Sinclair might have been a time bomb. It's too bad we missed out on whatever JMS had planned for his death wish.

My favorite O'Hare performances were in 'Soul Hunter,' 'Infection' (I still think the most underrated episode in many ways, even JMS says it's one of his least favorites), 'And the Sky Full of Stars' of course, 'Deathwalker,' 'By Any Means Necessary,' and 'Chrysalis.' His voice was astounding. I used to crank the opening credits through my biggest speakers because his narration sounded so good, so deep, it was haunting and inspiring.

I was so glad O'Hare came back for 'War Without End,' and I was glad to hear the real story for his departure last year in Phoenix. That was a very cool convention, I hope there will be another one.

Raw Shark

"Be careful, Ambassador. Not every dream I've heard lately ends well for you."
Commander Sinclair

I also completely agree. I never thought O'Hare's acting was wooden except for his scenes with Blaire Baron in The Gathering, but she was bad there, too. He just always seemed like somebody who was maintaining a tight grip on things to avoid losing control, and was fiery inside. However, since I started B5 with "Shadow Dancing", I started with Sheridan. However, I liked both station commanders; they were just different.

As in your sig., it's certainly true that O'Hare/Sinclair/Valen had some great lines that were perfectly delivered.

ps. You know what ringtone I use for my closest friends on my Droid? Sinclair to Garibaldi: "Hello, old friend." :)

KoshN February 14th 14 00:44

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ubik (Post 446426)
Completely agree. His performance always seemed very restrained and nuanced to me. I was always intrigued by the 'original' arc that JMS had planned. What we got was great, but it would have indeed been fascinating to see it played out with Sinclair in place (had other circumstances been more favourable).

**And HELLO! to everyone here at B5TV, some of you will know me from JMS News already. Same user ID. More when I get time folks!

You need an avatar.

ranger phil February 14th 14 05:41

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Liked O Hare's performances. It's difficult to portray someone of that ilk. Little did we know. As far as his performance in War Without End, it was amazing.

I for one was gutted when they 'replaced' him at the beginning of season 2. Not saying Bruce didn't do a good job, it just took me a while to adjust to sheridan over sinclair.

Springer February 14th 14 10:19

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 446393)
I always liked O'Hare's performance except for his scenes with Blaire Baron (in The Gathering), with whom he had zero chemistry. That scene, discussing The Battle of the Line was filled with bad acting, by both of them. It was just a bad scene. They should've done it a few more times and had good direction.

I haven't watched The Gathering in a while so I can't remember how the acting played out in that scene, but I do remember reading an interview with Julia Nickson in TV Zone magazine where she said her and Michael O'Hare spent a lot of time outside of the set working on their scenes so that they could get the chemistry right. It was a shame we didn't see more of Sakai as she brought out a different side of Sinclair and helped make him a more rounded character.

Raw Shark mentioned By Any Means Necessary as a standout Sinclair episode and I agree, it was a real tour de force for Michael O'Hare. And even in Believers, which is a Franklin-centric episode, I thought he was outstanding.

Best Sinclair scene? Kicking Neroon's arse in Legacies has got to be up there. Even Marcus couldn't do that!

In some ways Sinclair and G'Kar were similar, kind of 'warrior-monks' if that makes sense.

KoshN February 15th 14 03:41

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 446465)
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 446393)
I always liked O'Hare's performance except for his scenes with Blaire Baron (in The Gathering), with whom he had zero chemistry. That scene, discussing The Battle of the Line was filled with bad acting, by both of them. It was just a bad scene. They should've done it a few more times and had good direction.

I haven't watched The Gathering in a while so I can't remember how the acting played out in that scene, but I do remember reading an interview with Julia Nickson in TV Zone magazine where she said her and Michael O'Hare spent a lot of time outside of the set working on their scenes so that they could get the chemistry right. It was a shame we didn't see more of Sakai as she brought out a different side of Sinclair and helped make him a more rounded character.

Raw Shark mentioned By Any Means Necessary as a standout Sinclair episode and I agree, it was a real tour de force for Michael O'Hare. And even in Believers, which is a Franklin-centric episode, I thought he was outstanding.

Best Sinclair scene? Kicking Neroon's arse in Legacies has got to be up there. Even Marcus couldn't do that!

In some ways Sinclair and G'Kar were similar, kind of 'warrior-monks' if that makes sense.

I was thinking of the scene in The Gathering where Sinclair throws his Battle of the Line medal (in its case) against the wall of his quarters and she picks it up. THAT SCENE. Very clunky.

I definitely liked Sinclair and Sakai better. That looked far more real.

Yes, Sinclair and post-dust/Kosh G'kar were similar.

GoldChannel February 15th 14 14:37

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raw Shark (Post 446423)
As it turns out, it was about mental health issues, and that certainly does add a new layer to his tenure. A man trying to hold it together playing a man trying to hold it together,


fascinating observation


it definitely adds a layer to watching his performance

true to the ethos of the character, he does a hell of a better job holding it together than most of us would probably do

Raw Shark February 20th 14 18:24

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Thanks! I looked up Michael O'Hare's bio on Wikipedia, and it mentions the stress of playing a character with his own mental issues as being overwhelming for him, and in turn making O'Hare's own problems worse. I suppose that would be a real danger for an actor immersing himself in a challenging role, getting sucked in too deep. It's sad that it cost him on such a personal level, in terms of his own career and stability. Again, I wonder how often this happens? He cannot have been the only one who experienced this. Heath Ledger springs to mind, but I don't know that much about the events leading up to his death.

Raw Shark

"Get out of my way, or by God I'll throw you out the nearest airlock."
Cmdr. Sinclair

Jan February 21st 14 15:41

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Wow, I seriously disagree with "Halfway through filming, his hallucinations worsened and the stress of playing a character who was suffering from a similar mental illness was becoming overwhelming." *What* similar mental illness? PTST (Sinclair) isn't generally equated with paranoid delusions (O'Hare). In addition, in both his recent interview and in Phoenix, JMS didn't offer "... to suspend the show for several months to accommodate O'Hare's treatment for mental disease;..." He offered to shut down the show-full stop.

Jan

Springer February 22nd 14 16:02

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
I agree, the description on Wikipedia almost makes it sound like O'Hare became ill, or that his illness was made worse, partly because of the character he was playing but I don't recall JMS ever saying that.

Did Sinclair have PTSD? He certainly had survivor's guilt, which is pretty much what Garibaldi implies at the end of 'Infection', and is also hinted at with his memories of Mitchell in 'And the Sky Full of Stars'. He was haunted by the events on the line and his missing 24 hours. But people suffering PTSD also experience paranoia, anxiety, depression, flashbacks, withdrawal and a lack of confidence. I never saw any of that in Sinclair and we never saw Franklin discussing it with him. Sinclair was very confident, very sure of his abilities and his decision-making, never became flustered or hesitant. He didn't have a problem getting back into a Starfury and going back into battle or of working with Minbari. It does make me wonder a little bit if people are conflating Sinclair with O'Hare's illness, of which we do not know the details.

Republibot 3.0 February 22nd 14 17:07

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 446393)
I always liked O'Hare's performance except for his scenes with Blaire Baron (in The Gathering), with whom he had zero chemistry. That scene, discussing The Battle of the Line was filled with bad acting, by both of them. It was just a bad scene. They should've done it a few more times and had good direction.

They probably intended to do retakes after principle photography was done,, then were told it was being trimmed way back. in the preliminary edit. Or, conversely, the trimmed version we got might have been an attempt to salvage something from a scene that just wasn't working.

Republibot 3.0 February 22nd 14 17:14

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 446957)
It does make me wonder a little bit if people are conflating Sinclair with O'Hare's illness, of which we do not know the details.

Agreed. Easy to do, certainly under the circumstances.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but O'Hare was diagnosed with Paranoid Schizophrenia, wasn't he?

Republibot 3.0 February 22nd 14 18:51

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
I can only point to a few really bad scenes (The bar scene in "Born to the Purple" is cringingly awful), and some occasionally odd line readings, but I think the problem is that Stage acting and Screen acting are different animals. On state you're playing for the cheap seats in the back, and tend to be a little exaggerated in nuance. Screen is more intimate, the perormances more measured and restrained. (Example: "The Producers" broadway musical, which is pretty good, versus the movie version of "the Producers" musical, which is terrible [Though the John Barrowman part cracks me up])

I think O'Hare was primarily a stage actor, and he didn't really have time to find the sweet spot between the two mediums. As a result, I think he might have played the stoicism "too big," if that makes sense. He over-sold it. I can see how this would make people think he's merely wooden, and not give him the second chance he deserved.

On the other hand, in his "Achiles sulking in his tent" scenes, his over-selling it just totally rocks and is amazing.

Jan February 22nd 14 20:17

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 446957)
I agree, the description on Wikipedia almost makes it sound like O'Hare became ill, or that his illness was made worse, partly because of the character he was playing but I don't recall JMS ever saying that.

Did Sinclair have PTSD? He certainly had survivor's guilt, which is pretty much what Garibaldi implies at the end of 'Infection', and is also hinted at with his memories of Mitchell in 'And the Sky Full of Stars'.

You may be correct. My comment was based on the (few, thank goodness) people I've known with post-combat PTSD who were prone to flashbacks. Which Sinclair definitely seemed to have, even without the Knight's machine. However, he definitely had survivor's guilt.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 446966)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but O'Hare was diagnosed with Paranoid Schizophrenia, wasn't he?

It sounds like it, but JMS never mentioned any actual diagnosis. BTW, if you haven't seen it yet, there's a *long* interview with JMS at http://www.emmytvlegends.org/intervi...l-straczynski# and a link to a clip where he talks about Michael just a short time before he did so at Phoenix Comic-Con. In the clip, the discussion of Michael's illness starts shortly after the 46:00 mark.

Jan

JoeD80 February 23rd 14 05:09

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 446963)
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 446393)
I always liked O'Hare's performance except for his scenes with Blaire Baron (in The Gathering), with whom he had zero chemistry. That scene, discussing The Battle of the Line was filled with bad acting, by both of them. It was just a bad scene. They should've done it a few more times and had good direction.

They probably intended to do retakes after principle photography was done,, then were told it was being trimmed way back. in the preliminary edit. Or, conversely, the trimmed version we got might have been an attempt to salvage something from a scene that just wasn't working.

um that scene was cut in the original pilot. the full scene was there in the "special edition.". Personally I think o'hare is awesome in that scene.

Springer February 23rd 14 12:36

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Thank you for posting a link to that video Jan. I haven't had chance to watch all three hours yet but I viewed the part where he talks about Rick Biggs and MIchael O'Hare. Very sad, and the respect he had for those actors is clear to see.

Raw Shark February 24th 14 00:25

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
There was a fair amount of emotion on display in Phoenix. I loved the stories about Jerry Doyle living with Andreas Katsulas, and the free ham he was obsessed with getting his hands on. And that part about several of the cast watching Galaxy Quest together one night was very funny.

But my favorite part was Tracy Scoggins' defense of her friend Jeff Conaway's reputation. Prior to his death, they had been friends for many years. After years of dancing and performing on Broadway and elsewhere, he had (I think) several injuries to his back and elsewhere, and got hooked on prescription painkillers. That's how a lot of addicts start out, and after sustaining my own injuries I've become keenly aware of this trend over the last few years. She was really unhappy with the way he was portrayed on the reality series Celebrity Rehab, which I'm guessing was along the lines of a self-absorbed, overly dramatic trainwreck. I haven't seen the show, I hate reality tv with all my heart, but that's what she was implying. She said he was not like he appeared on the rehab show, but was instead a good friend and a good man. It didn't quite fit with the other topics being discussed, but she needed to say it, and I thought it was pretty damn cool. Count me as a Tracy Scoggins fan.

Raw Shark

"Perhaps everyone is wrong."
Kalain

Jan February 24th 14 01:58

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Sadly, I did see a couple of episodes of Celebrity Rehab with Jeff on it and I came away with an abiding disgust for 'Dr. Drew' who capitalizes on people's pain. Yes, Jeff was portrayed poorly and behaved badly. But since I never met him, I prefer to think of him as JMS drew him in his tribute to the departed cast members - as a man who rebuilt his career after drugs had destroyed it once before with courage and no resentment.

Jan

Republibot 3.0 February 26th 14 23:19

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 446978)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 446966)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but O'Hare was diagnosed with Paranoid Schizophrenia, wasn't he?

It sounds like it, but JMS never mentioned any actual diagnosis. BTW, if you haven't seen it yet, there's a *long* interview with JMS at http://www.emmytvlegends.org/intervi...l-straczynski# and a link to a clip where he talks about Michael just a short time before he did so at Phoenix Comic-Con. In the clip, the discussion of Michael's illness starts shortly after the 46:00 mark.

Jan

Wow, thanks for the link. And, yeah, that makes it sound more like Paranoid Schizophrenia. The fact that he went off the meds and disappeared is also pretty common behavior for people with that disorder. How sad.

Republibot 3.0 February 26th 14 23:20

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeD80 (Post 446999)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 446963)
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 446393)
I always liked O'Hare's performance except for his scenes with Blaire Baron (in The Gathering), with whom he had zero chemistry. That scene, discussing The Battle of the Line was filled with bad acting, by both of them. It was just a bad scene. They should've done it a few more times and had good direction.

They probably intended to do retakes after principle photography was done,, then were told it was being trimmed way back. in the preliminary edit. Or, conversely, the trimmed version we got might have been an attempt to salvage something from a scene that just wasn't working.

um that scene was cut in the original pilot. the full scene was there in the "special edition.". Personally I think o'hare is awesome in that scene.

I don't see how your comment relates to either of the quotes. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just dont' understand what you said. Can you restate?

Republibot 3.0 February 26th 14 23:25

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 447041)
Sadly, I did see a couple of episodes of Celebrity Rehab with Jeff on it and I came away with an abiding disgust for 'Dr. Drew' who capitalizes on people's pain. Yes, Jeff was portrayed poorly and behaved badly. But since I never met him, I prefer to think of him as JMS drew him in his tribute to the departed cast members - as a man who rebuilt his career after drugs had destroyed it once before with courage and no resentment.

Jan

I'm torn: Is Drew Pinsky a good guy who has been corrupted by celebrity and easy money, or is the always-corrupt son of an unsuccessful actress that realized getting a degree could grant him celebrity and easy money?

Because I used to like him when he first hit the public eye, and he seemed helpful, but now I'm kind of ashamed to admit I ever felt like that. Because every time I see him, he's just kind of low-key despicable.

Poor Jeff. He was getting used by a lot of people at the end there, and I wonder if he knew it or not. Was he allowing himself to be used because at least he'd get some help/money that way, or was he too far gone to even realize what was being done to him? Poor guy.

Jan February 27th 14 02:04

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 447134)
I'm torn: Is Drew Pinsky a good guy who has been corrupted by celebrity and easy money, or is the always-corrupt son of an unsuccessful actress that realized getting a degree could grant him celebrity and easy money?

Because I used to like him when he first hit the public eye, and he seemed helpful, but now I'm kind of ashamed to admit I ever felt like that. Because every time I see him, he's just kind of low-key despicable.

<shrug> He's very presentable and he presents himself well and I suppose that *perhaps* he might do some good in making mental health issues more understandable to people. But he also caters to the lowest, basest impulses of human nature by putting people's pain on display and I despise him for it.

Quote:

Poor Jeff. He was getting used by a lot of people at the end there, and I wonder if he knew it or not. Was he allowing himself to be used because at least he'd get some help/money that way, or was he too far gone to even realize what was being done to him? Poor guy.
I don't know. I might be able to form a true opinion if I saw the uncut footage from the rehab show but there's no real telling. What I did see (only a couple of the episodes, I couldn't bring myself to watch any more) left me with the impression that he really did want to get clean again.

Jan

JoeD80 March 20th 14 14:25

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 447131)
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeD80 (Post 446999)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 446963)

They probably intended to do retakes after principle photography was done,, then were told it was being trimmed way back. in the preliminary edit. Or, conversely, the trimmed version we got might have been an attempt to salvage something from a scene that just wasn't working.

um that scene was cut in the original pilot. the full scene was there in the "special edition.". Personally I think o'hare is awesome in that scene.

I don't see how your comment relates to either of the quotes. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just dont' understand what you said. Can you restate?

You said "then were told it was being trimmed way back." My statement was that it was indeed trimmed in the original pilot. Then you say "the trimmed version we got" - but the full version is in the redone pilot.

My personal feeling is that the full scene works.

Republibot 3.0 March 20th 14 16:26

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeD80 (Post 447812)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 447131)
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeD80 (Post 446999)

um that scene was cut in the original pilot. the full scene was there in the "special edition.". Personally I think o'hare is awesome in that scene.

I don't see how your comment relates to either of the quotes. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just dont' understand what you said. Can you restate?

You said "then were told it was being trimmed way back." My statement was that it was indeed trimmed in the original pilot. Then you say "the trimmed version we got" - but the full version is in the redone pilot.

My personal feeling is that the full scene works.

Ok, if you think it works you think it works. That means it works for you, that's good enough, I won't argue.

What I was trying to say is sometimes people will shoot scenes that they know won't be in the finished cut, or are unlikely to be in the finished cut, or will be HEAVILY altered in the finished cut because that's just the way the shooting schedule is plotted out, and it'd be more trouble to change the schedule than it's worth. You can usually recognize these scenes in outtakes because the actors don't usually seem very motivated. This used to happen a fair ammount on TV shows, but less so now.

What also happens is that they'll shoot a scene that IS intended to be in the finished product, but it doesn't go the way they wanted, or someone flubs it, or gives an off performance or whatever, and owing to a tight shooting schedule they don't have time to redo it until they get it right. Instead they have to go on to the next scene on the chedule and hope they can come back to do some re-takes of the scene that didn't work. Sometimes they get the chance, sometimes they don't, and they just salvage as best they can from what they got. This happens A LOT in TV.

My suspicion is that the *Full* scene was an example of it being kind of not as satisfactory as they wanted, and the *original cut* in the 1990s pilot movie was their attempt to salvage what they could from it when they weren't able to re-shoot it for whatever reason.

But I could be wrong.

Jan March 20th 14 16:57

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
As a director, it seems that Richard Compton was distinctly lacking. At the time of "The Gathering", JMS wasn't an experienced editor (something he fixed quickly when the show went to series) and so the original edit left much to be desired as far as character moments are concerned.

It's common practice for the Director's cut to run long by a few minutes but in general, JMS' scripts are written with a view toward every scene and every line being in the final cut. Personally, I loved O'Hare's performance in the scene where he talks about the Battle of the Line but really didn't care for the girlfriend's (Blair Baron?). I was glad when she didn't make it to the series.

Jan

Republibot 3.0 March 20th 14 17:09

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
[QUOTE=Jan;447836]As a director, it seems that Richard Compton was distinctly lacking. At the time of "The Gathering", JMS wasn't an experienced editor (something he fixed quickly when the show went to series) and so the original edit left much to be desired as far as character moments are concerned.
[.QUOTE]

Yup. Also he was under pressure from P-10 to make additional cuts in the middle to make room for more commercials.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 447836)
Personally, I loved O'Hare's performance in the scene where he talks about the Battle of the Line but really didn't care for the girlfriend's (Blair Baron?). I was glad when she didn't make it to the series.

Jan

Oh, yeah, he was great. He was great and she was terrible, and the scene as in the P-10 version is basically cut to work AROUND her being terrible, and also to make it shorter for commercial breaks. In the TNT version that's undone, and he's still great, but the scene is massively off-balance because of her. That's all I'm saying. One or two more takes might have fixed it for her, because she's adequate in the other scenes, but they didn't do that for whatever reason. Probably a production reason.

Springer March 20th 14 19:28

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 447836)
As a director, it seems that Richard Compton was distinctly lacking.

To be fair, he has an impressive CV. Maybe just not a good fit for B5, he clearly had a different view on it than JMS. He was a producer on the show as well until the parting of ways so they must have shown him a great deal of trust in the beginning.

Republibot 3.0 March 28th 14 16:25

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 447854)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 447836)
As a director, it seems that Richard Compton was distinctly lacking.

To be fair, he has an impressive CV. Maybe just not a good fit for B5, he clearly had a different view on it than JMS. He was a producer on the show as well until the parting of ways so they must have shown him a great deal of trust in the beginning.

Everyone has an off day.

And, hey, perhaps schlogging through all the mess to make the pilot impressed JMS with his sticktuitiveness.

Jan March 28th 14 18:17

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 448178)
And, hey, perhaps schlogging through all the mess to make the pilot impressed JMS with his sticktuitiveness.

I've always figured that since it was JMS' first series, he counted on names like Compton and Netter to help sell the show *after* the pilot. The theory was that the show would start filming episodes immediately after the pilot but it didn't happen that way.

Jan

Republibot 3.0 March 29th 14 13:16

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 448187)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 448178)
And, hey, perhaps schlogging through all the mess to make the pilot impressed JMS with his sticktuitiveness.

I've always figured that since it was JMS' first series, he counted on names like Compton and Netter to help sell the show *after* the pilot. The theory was that the show would start filming episodes immediately after the pilot but it didn't happen that way.

Jan

Was Netter anyone of note at that point? I think he was vaguely tied to Robotech about a decade earlier, but apart from that [Checking] Nope, I'm thinking of Jeffrey Willerth (sp?) who was a writer on Robotech. And Netter was a suit at MGM for half a decade, then a producer/co-producer.

Jan March 29th 14 19:40

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Once one has had power in H-wood, as Doug Netter most certainly had had at MGM, unless there's a major scandal there's still a lot of influence and connections. Jeff Willerth, was never more than a producer's assistant (and body of Kosh, of course) on B5 as far as I know.

Jan

JoeD80 March 31st 14 17:07

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
JMS had stated a couple of issues with Compton's directing - that the editing was hard because Compton would rarely shoot enough coverage; and that he would often have the actors static in one place and not have enough for them to do beyond the dialogue. "Believers" and "The War Prayer" both had added scenes shot because there wasn't a long enough edit at the end.

On the flip side, I think Peter Jurasik said he liked Compton, and Michael O'Hare said that he was a big help with him on getting the Sinclair character down. So Compton was apparently very good with the actors, which not all of the directors were (Mario DiLeo, Adam Nimoy).

Republibot 3.0 March 31st 14 17:24

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 448235)
Once one has had power in H-wood, as Doug Netter most certainly had had at MGM, unless there's a major scandal there's still a lot of influence and connections. Jeff Willerth, was never more than a producer's assistant (and body of Kosh, of course) on B5 as far as I know.

Jan

Willerth also wrote for Robotech, and Netter did a CGI demo reel for one of the failed attempts to revive Robotech, so I confused the two. My bad.

Republibot 3.0 March 31st 14 17:27

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeD80 (Post 448334)
JMS had stated a couple of issues with Compton's directing - that the editing was hard because Compton would rarely shoot enough coverage; and that he would often have the actors static in one place and not have enough for them to do beyond the dialogue. "Believers" and "The War Prayer" both had added scenes shot because there wasn't a long enough edit at the end.

HA! YES! I'M RIGHT! Kinda.

Remember upthread when I said the Sinclair/Caroline/Battle of the Line sequence felt like they just did one take? And it wasn't very good (On Caroline's side), so they just used what they could in the original pilot? That's consistent with what you just said about Compton's directorial style.

Raw Shark April 2nd 14 05:17

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Richard Compton directed 'Infection' and 'Midnight on the Firing Line,' both of which I thought were terrific. Some of his other episodes tended to be clunky, some of the ones which aren't considered among the best. But the first season was very clunky in some places and very polished in others. That's something I love about season one, that it was so experimental, that every idea they had got filmed, the whole crew came up with ways to make it work on a budget. Sometimes it didn't work, but by this process they got most of the kinks out, and season two was a more polished production. But I do think some of the writing in the first season was the best. The wild ideas and concepts just kept coming. A refugee export service! After years of watching Next Generation, that was the line that made me think 'Oh damn, I don't think we're on the Love Boat anymore.'

Raw Shark

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle

Republibot 3.0 April 2nd 14 21:36

Re: Michael O'Hare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raw Shark (Post 448379)
The wild ideas and concepts just kept coming. A refugee export service! After years of watching Next Generation, that was the line that made me think 'Oh damn, I don't think we're on the Love Boat anymore.'

Amen, brother! Preach on!


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