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-   -   Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=11678)

thelzdking September 16th 09 12:44

Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
As some of you may know I have introduced my friend, known here as Londo Benlari to B5, and tonight we will complete the last six episodes - the first time he will see the conclusion to the five-year arc.

It will be the fifth or sixth time I have seen it, and it got me thinking about final episodes. 'Sleeping in Light' is (aside from Berserk and Neon Genesis Evangelion, which as anime are both very different from the type of show I'm talking about) the only finale I've ever seen that I feel real does justice to the show as a whole. The finales of The Wire, Deep Space Nine, Rome et al. while good, felt, to me, slightly underwhelming or anti-climactic.

I think that one of B5's huge strengths is that the final episode manages to feel like a climax, despite it taking place years (in the arc) after the fact.

What do others feel about the Sleeping in Light as a 'finale' to B5's arc rather than just an epilogue or final episode?

KoshFan September 16th 09 16:12

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
Other than the continuity glitches necessary due to making the ep at the end of season 4, SiL's a thing of perfect beauty.

And while I can't agree with you on the Wire -- part of the point is that everything kept going just the same -- and have a great deal of love for the Buffy finale, I do agree that SiL is probably the best finale to a show that I've ever seen.

thelzdking September 16th 09 16:55

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
My problem with The Wire finale wasn't the fact that nothing really changed - Cheese's 'here, today' speech is one of the best parts - because, as you say, that is the point. It's just felt underwhelming in some unquantifiable way. I find that the finale of the third season says much the same things as the fifth season's, but with more impact.

But anyway, yes, the continuity errors are a bit jarring, but they're minor, and I'm happy to deal with them because it means we have Ivanova, and her abscence would have been worse.

KoshFan September 16th 09 17:00

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
At the risk of turning this into a "Wire" thread -- wasn't that kind of the point? "Things aren't actually getting any better, folks." But the Baltimore montage was pretty sweet, and seeing Michael with a shotgun was kind of cool.

Right with you on Ivanova. I watched it in episode order (I still haven't seen A Call to Arms or Crusade), and seeing her again was like welcoming back a very old friend. "Hey, it's Ivanova! How have you been?"

dreamer October 2nd 09 17:01

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
It's pure pain for me to watch the last episode - oftentimes I plain skip it since I just cry like a little girl.

Best goddamn finale I've ever seen.

Ranger1 October 2nd 09 21:51

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamer (Post 350927)
It's pure pain for me to watch the last episode - oftentimes I plain skip it since I just cry like a little girl.

Best goddamn finale I've ever seen.

it's so beautiful, susan accepting the position with the rangers, is so similar to delenn's final scene, they both do these things so they can be "near" those they love. i cry every time.

just going back the wire, i don't watch the last episode anymore, dookie shooting up physically hurts me, so once was more than enough.

Alexa October 18th 09 23:48

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
It`s a wonderful finale, and I cry every frickin` time I watch it. The only series finale that came close to SIL was Not To Be, the series finale of Highlander.

Infested Londo November 2nd 09 13:40

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
Um... Enlighten me - What finale glitches?

KoshFan November 2nd 09 14:35

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
The main glitch is that Franklin has to check to see if Garibaldi actually wants to come -- filmed at the end of season 4, there was still a lot of tension between Garibaldi and Sheridan.

There might be one or two more, but I can't remember them.

Infested Londo November 2nd 09 15:35

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
Oh, well I always assumed there was something else happening there, in the 10 year gap. And anyway, I don't think JMS would've made that big of a glitch. He's known what was going to happen in the 10 year gap even before filming season 5, and he wouldn't have made any changes in the tension between Garibaldy and Sheridan during season 5 because he knew he had SIL as the finale...

KoshFan November 2nd 09 16:33

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
Oh, well, it's easy enough to fan-wank another problem into the 20 years; my own personal take is that Garibaldi and Sheridan have different approaches to parenting, and got into a fight over how Sheridan's raising David.

But when JMS didn't know he was going to get Season 5, he knew he had alude to the differences between the two men somehow. Because while his outline did prevail usually, reality trumped it, and I'm pretty sure this was one of those times. Not a glitch at all, he did it quite intentionally when he though he wouldn't have a chance to have Sheridan and Garibaldi speak between Sheridan's rescue and SiL.

I've been over the SiL page on the Lurker's Guide several times now, and I could have sworn he explained it all, but it seems that page has been altered since last I looked. For one thing, the explanation of the duck at the top of the page is gone.

Infested Londo November 2nd 09 17:12

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
So you're saying JMS thought they wouldn't have time to patch things up in 10 years? And again, if so, why did he clear the air between them during the 5th season? Obviously he remembered the bad blood between them in SiL...

Look, I'm not one of those crazy fans who can't believe JMS is capable of making a mistake - He is, and he did - But I don't think this is one of them, nor do I recognize any other glitches caused by SiL being filmed at the end of S4.

Infested Londo November 2nd 09 17:13

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
Earlier I referred to the gap as "10 years"... Obviously I meant "20 years". My glitch :)

KoshFan November 2nd 09 19:26

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Infested Londo (Post 351958)
So you're saying JMS thought they wouldn't have time to patch things up in 10 years? And again, if so, why did he clear the air between them during the 5th season? Obviously he remembered the bad blood between them in SiL...

Look, I'm not one of those crazy fans who can't believe JMS is capable of making a mistake - He is, and he did - But I don't think this is one of them, nor do I recognize any other glitches caused by SiL being filmed at the end of S4.

This debate probably isn't worth losing any sleep over... but I'm still convinced I saw something somewhere where JMS said that's why the Franklin/Garibaldi exchange is in there.

Again, by the dictates of the story, you're absolutely right. But SiL was filmed on the assumption that there would be no season 5. As far as I can recall, after Sheridan's rescue he and Garibaldi don't get any screen time together before the finale -- in other words, where SiL would have aired if there had been no continuation. So while logically you're quite correct, obviously they could have talked things through in the ensuing decades. But it would have been even weirder for audiences to go from "Garibaldi, I was gonna kick your ass!" to lifelong friends without something being said to explain it. You know how us fans like to pick stuff apart...

However, it would be equally illogical for them to not talk all through Season 5. JMS was not such a slave to continuity that he'd have them fight all year just to maintain one line in the finale. Which is why they do indeed reconnect -- although if you note, their S5 relationship is a bit rougher.

And once SiL was filmed, they didn't have the time/money to go back and change it (notice JMS never managed to do the Soviet revisionism he wanted and re-film Beth Toussant's Anna with Melissa Gilbert instead; an even more glaring continuity error; again no money or time). So the season-four relevance of the exchange was no longer necessary but was still there.

Hence, glitch.

A perhaps more unfortunate one is actually in "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" -- they'd paid Claudia for a full season, and since SiL was technically a fourth-season ep, they couldn't have her in Deconstruction. So in a way the biggest glitch caused by SiL aired a year before the episode did.

Jan November 2nd 09 19:30

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 351957)
I've been over the SiL page on the Lurker's Guide several times now, and I could have sworn he explained it all, but it seems that page has been altered since last I looked. For one thing, the explanation of the duck at the top of the page is gone.

If this is the same page you were on, it's still there. Follow the link directly above the "JMS Speaks" section.

ETA: Never mind. The link's broken.

Jan

Infested Londo November 2nd 09 20:44

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
I don't think not having her in deconstructions is a glitch... There could be other reasons for whateverhisnameis to not want to bring her back. Maybe the fact she was a telepath? I don't know. JMS could've come up with all sorts of crap, and in any way I don't think it's relevant.

Hey, the fact they're being filmed by a guy with a camera is somewhat of a glitch as well, so... You know :)

I think we both stated our opinions.

BTW, what you said about their relationship being a bit "harder" in S5 is correct - Actually, I watched S5 and SiL unaware of the fact SiL was filmed for S4. And when Garibaldi said that line, my response was "huh, so there WAS something going on underneath between them all season"...

So you could say the glitch is not necessarily in the fact SiL was filmed in the end of S4, but in the fact that you fans knew about it :)

Sindatur November 2nd 09 20:48

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
I do remember this being addressed, I kinda thought it was addressed in one of the books.

But, yea, as strenuous as the relationship was in S5, it could've always fell apart again

KoshFan November 3rd 09 04:19

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 351963)
ETA: Never mind. The link's broken.

That's what I meant. Thank goodness I remember it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infested Londo (Post 351965)
So you could say the glitch is not necessarily in the fact SiL was filmed in the end of S4, but in the fact that you fans knew about it :)

Heh. Indeed. Wouldn't be the first time seeing a bit too much beyond the curtain has hampered a performance.

Republibot 3.0 November 25th 09 14:31

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
I'm one of those people who didn't like "Sleeping In Light" - at first, anyway. I've grown to see the error of my ways.

About two years ago, I decided to introduce my older kids to B5, so we sat down and watched all the shows in subjective chronological order (Including putting "Day of the Dead" in its right location in S5), and I have to say it kind of moved me.

As I said, I didn't like "Sleeping in Light" back in '99. It was too intimate for me, to quiet and close to be following the sturm und drang of the last third of S5, it felt like the show had just run out of steam. Watching it again didn't improve it for me any.

However, watching it after everything else - the show, the movies, Rangers, Crusade, Lost Tales, "Beginning", it picked up a lot of resonance for me, it really moved me. It took me nearly a decade to get what JMS was going for with that episode, but when I finally was able to connect with it, it moved me in ways no other part of the franchise did. It was beautiful, and poignient, and it made me ache for all the cool stuff we were prevented from seeing.

benisjamin33 May 15th 10 05:12

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
It seems that all of you have watched this show many times through, I just recently finished watching all of series, and I got to say I was extremely dissappointed with the last episode. I felt like there was something missing between "Objects At Rest" and "Sleeping In Light". I felt like they just addresssed all these new problems and then they just ended it. Lienner running of, Michael and Litta vs Psi Core, the pot Londo gave to Sheridan for his kid, G'Kar and Litta's adventure, and the Darkh on Centurie Prime. Now a couple of these we can solve are self with the flash forwards, like Delenn and Sherdian escaping from Centurie Prime with their son, and some of the books talking about Londos, but what about Lienner and the Psi Core problem? All the movies address new issues, except for "The Beginning", and it doesn't seem like there is any books that fill in these gaps. I guess I am more dissappointed not knowing what happened to one of my favorite characters in Lienner, and ticked that I couldn't see the badassness that would have been the Telepathy War.

vacantlook May 15th 10 08:11

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
Well, Sleeping In Light (the very last episode) was originally filmed as the last episode of season four. For the first four seasons, Babylon 5 was part of a Warner Brothers syndication package of shows called PTEN -- The Primetime Entertainment Network. As they were busy filming season four, it looked increasingly and increasingly like there would be no season five. Wanting to be able to have a finish to the show, some things were shifted around. The ending of the Earth civil war was going to have been in the beginning of season five -- the originally planned last episode of season four was to have been "Intersections In Real Time" with Sheridan being tortured; the rest of the war after that was to have taken place in season five. So, the resolution of that war was moved up into season four. The telepath colony would have been established in season four, but it was bumped out to make room for finishing the war.

So here they are finishing up the season and there was no hope for a season five. PTEN had been officially declared over by Warner Brothers. So, "Sleeping In Light," which would pretty much have been the finale of the show no matter what was filmed. But then in swooped TNT who offered to produce a fifth season. So, they pulled "Sleeping In Light" after it was filmed and held off on it until it could be shown as the series finale at the end of season five. A new finale ("The Deconstruction of Falling Stars") was the first episode filmed in the season five filming schedule to take the place of Sleeping In Light at the end of season four.

Season five was then done with Sleeping In Light having already been filmed before hand and just sitting there waiting to be shown as the final episode of the show.

Jan May 15th 10 09:56

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
The thing to remember is that Babylon 5 was a five-year slice of history. There's never been a period in history where all of the situations end nicely. Just as we came in and things we didn't see were happening, we're made aware of things needing to be addressed after the episodes we see. There are probably almost as many fans who wish they could see the Dilgar War as there are who want to see the Telepath War.

But Babylon 5 was a 'documentary' about the five most important years in a certain place so once the people passed out of that place, it was right that the story end.

Jan

benisjamin33 May 15th 10 10:33

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
I will have to watch season 4 again and then watch the original finale, hopefully I will get a better sense of closuer. It sucks that JMS kinda of set it up for another season with all those different plot twists. I feel like it could have done with another season, deal with the Psi Core issue, have Lienner sacrafice himself, have the flash forwards come full circle, and see how David Sheridan gets captured how they escaped. That would be great if that was the movie JMS was secretly working on. Would make some sense with everyone being older to play their character's part in the future. Maybe I am just upset that I final got through, for the most part, a great series were most of the characters grew on me, and this is how it ends? No, please, if there is god, have JMS write a theatrical version of B5!

Jan May 15th 10 14:07

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
He may do that some day. He's made it clear to Warner Bros. that any future B5 will be a big-budget feature or nothing. With some emphasis on 'big-budget' since WB insists on always 'testing the waters' with low budget offerings and JMS has told them he won't play that game any more.

I don't think that wating SIL after season 4 will really change much. Regardless of when the show ended, JMS had the 'history' of the B5 universe already mapped out.

Jan

KoshFan May 15th 10 15:53

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
Yeah. The whole point was, "We're bringing closure to this story, but there are always more stories." Hence "Deconstruction of Falling Stars." Although, interestingly, what you say about "SiL" is interestingly mirrored by Sheridan's own life: cut off in its prime, with all this new stuff brewing (leading the Rangers, being a father, etc.), but still cut off. Ended.

At some point all things must end. They do not always end as they ought -- but even when they don't come out as you might like, they can still end very well. That's "Sleeping in Light."

JoeD80 May 15th 10 23:39

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by benisjamin33 (Post 361404)
I will have to watch season 4 again and then watch the original finale, hopefully I will get a better sense of closuer.

A lot of resolutions didn't occur until the fifth season though: knowing how Garibaldi will break Bester's block; or how Londo gets a keeper; or the gift that leads Sheridan and Delenn to Centauri Prime; or why Centauri Prime is in ruins; or why the Raiders started attacking again; what the Drazi are up to; the lead-up to the destruction of Psi Corps; that's all in the last season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by benisjamin33 (Post 361404)
It sucks that JMS kinda of set it up for another season with all those different plot twists.

The show was *always* going to be five years regardless, as early as the original notes in the 80s. He didn't write the episodes this way thinking a sixth season might come; he told TNT point blank that there would be no sixth season.

benisjamin33 May 16th 10 23:06

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
I think I was just upset that there seemed like there was so much still going on that I didn't want it to end, but as the saying goes all good things must come to an end. Maybe I was also upset that I felt like there was no resolution for one of my favorite characters in Lienner, besides a toast in his memory that didn't unveil when, where, and why he died. Most of the other story lines have some vague ending that you can use your immagination and kind of come up with what happened in the middle. I also feel like SiL opened another can of worms with Sheridan. We all knew he was dying, but the 1st one came back for him and took him to the outer rim. Do what, it is anyone's guess.

Jade Jaguar May 18th 10 04:15

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
Just thought I would mention that I post on the Audio Video Science Forum. There is a thread there, over 5 MILLION hits so far, that posts TV program news on it. A mention was made of the best final eps of series. I think it came up because Law and Order is ending. A few different final eps were mentioned. I mentioned Sleeping in Light. Five or six people posted to agree with me. That was more than for any other show mentioned! Not bad for a 'little' show like B5!

KoshN May 18th 10 04:55

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by benisjamin33 (Post 361475)
I think I was just upset that there seemed like there was so much still going on that I didn't want it to end, but as the saying goes all good things must come to an end. Maybe I was also upset that I felt like there was no resolution for one of my favorite characters in Lienner, besides a toast in his memory that didn't unveil when, where, and why he died. Most of the other story lines have some vague ending that you can use your immagination and kind of come up with what happened in the middle. I also feel like SiL opened another can of worms with Sheridan. We all knew he was dying, but the 1st one came back for him and took him to the outer rim. Do what, it is anyone's guess.

What's Londo say in "In the Beginning" ....the story is never over.

As for Lennier, he dies fighting in the Telepath War alongside Lyta (who also dies then). We would've seen that in Crusade's "The Path of Sorrows" flashback if Patricia Tallman would've accepted what the wanted to pay her, but she didn't.

As for tying up all loose ends, go watch the explanation in last Thursday's 5th season finale of "SUPERNATURAL." ;)

fisheggs May 18th 10 11:21

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
:thumbsup: I love Supernatural. And hope like Hell that it's over.:cool: Probably not planned out from the beginning, but the ending arc was elegant, though a bit messy.:devil: And ****spoiler*****

























The "prophet" was "God", so the Bro's did have a chance to air their complaints to "the big guy".

fisheggs May 18th 10 11:43

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by benisjamin33 (Post 361475)
I think I was just upset that there seemed like there was so much still going on that I didn't want it to end, but as the saying goes all good things must come to an end. Maybe I was also upset that I felt like there was no resolution for one of my favorite characters in Lienner, besides a toast in his memory that didn't unveil when, where, and why he died. Most of the other story lines have some vague ending that you can use your immagination and kind of come up with what happened in the middle. I also feel like SiL opened another can of worms with Sheridan. We all knew he was dying, but the 1st one came back for him and took him to the outer rim. Do what, it is anyone's guess.


Happily ever after is a comforting myth. Unless everyone dies there is always more. But it may not be that interesting.;) Reading the Legion of Fire/ Centauri trilogy will answer many questions. The B5 universe is rich with possabilty,unfortunately the real world is poor in imagination. The good news, B5 will be resurected in 20-30 years. The bad news is that it will be reimaged, kinda like BSG.

J2M March 18th 11 19:27

Re: Babylon 5 - Sleeping in Light - The End
 
One of the best story endings in any format, in my ever so humble opinion. Very well done.


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