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AntonyF March 21st 09 22:01

Legend of the Rangers
 
Saw it again today, for the first time since I watched a pre-release copy on VHS.

I liked some bits of it. G'Kar, the attempt to try a new aesthetic to the ship and weapons, and a new angle on the music from Franke.

But really, I don't think it's held up well. It promised a lot, which would have been good if the show ran. But as a standalone film, not great. The dialogue was often clumsy, and the cast being all new couldn't carry the team spirt/humor that well. I think pilots need to be a bit more slamdunk until the point when pure character scenes can hold up both you and the cast are invested in it all.

Still, it was interesting to see it again.. and it's still incredibly special to me as it's where this site germinated from.

RW7427 March 22nd 09 00:50

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
I haven't seen it in quite some time. I do have it on DVD, so maybe sometime soon I'll get it out, dust it off and pop it into the TV.

darth_librarian March 23rd 09 09:30

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
I've still got a shrink-wrapped DVD on my shelf. May skip ahead in my planned re-watch and try it ...

darth_librarian March 25th 09 10:22

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Watched it last night.
Shows such as BSG have pushed the boundaries of what we expect from TV sci-fi. If Rangers was cheesy then, its a big piece of Stilton now.

Yet for all its glaring flaws, it was still great fun. I loved the effects, mistakes apart. The cast were good and hot (Sarah really), which also helps. I thought it could have been a good series. The Hand were a cheesy terrible foe who needed to go away or be written into something sensible.

But then afterwards, I watched Midnight on the Firing Line again, the episode which really setup the whole B5 concept and got me hooked initally. It for me was much better than Rangers. Better pacing, plot, acting and lines. You can see which one had JMS more interested at the time of writing.

wade8069 May 7th 09 08:08

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Been here and answered.

CelticHippo May 7th 09 22:53

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Ahh, one I have still to watch but re-watching the main seasons first

Mercury August 18th 09 15:53

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
I only just received my DVD and I gotta say I'm disappointed. Nothing in particular just the entire film was not as good as I was hoping it would be. A Call to Arms probably set the bench mark a bit high for me as I only got that DVD last week and IMHO it's much better.

Also, the very notion that Rangers do not back down even if it means certain death for no cause what so ever annoyed me. I do not understand why they were supposed to die for absolutely nothing, it nullifies the entire Rangers cause if you ask me.

If you're protecting a civilian colony full of children then I understand why you would willingly give your life with no chance of victory but when you're chasing a bunch of raiders with 0 chance of success what exactly do you achieve? Nothing...

Sometimes the Minbari are far too cold and robotic, and on the other hand you have Delenn, who certainly won't back down from a fight easily, but would preserve life more than anything else. This is conflicting if you ask me...

Jan August 18th 09 17:55

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury (Post 349005)
Also, the very notion that Rangers do not back down even if it means certain death for no cause what so ever annoyed me. I do not understand why they were supposed to die for absolutely nothing, it nullifies the entire Rangers cause if you ask me.

That's a common comment and you make a valid point. JMS has said that if it had gone to series as hoped, that hidebound attitude would have been addressed. Apparently there was supposed to be some dark connection between what happened to the previous crew of the Liandra and the Ranger Council.

Sadly, we'll never know now. I did like the chemistry between the characters.

Jan

Republibot 3.0 November 20th 09 00:26

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
It's kind of grown on me, you know? I didn't care for it when I first saw it, but a year or two ago, I ended up watching every B5 thing in subjective order, with the movies all plugged in to their correct spaces in the timeline, then Crusade, and ending with "Sleeping in Light." It came after "River of Souls" (Which I didn't like) and before "A Call to Arms" (Which I really did like).

Seeing it that time through made me feel a profound sense that I'd missed something, you know? Not as good as B5, of course, perhaps not even as good as Crusade, but still worth watching.

FlyingCircus September 3rd 10 21:01

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
I guess I'm one of a minority if I say I liked it.
The characters were original and although everyone had different backgrounds, behaviour etc, they just fit perfectly together. Introducing new characters in a new setting in an already existing show is always difficult, but I really do think it was handled well - a brief insight to David and his friends while in training and then a bit more in different scenes, although not so much that it became boring. David and Dulan's friendship has intrigued me from the very beginning. They banter each other just as siblings would. I loved the scene of them inspecting the Liandra for the first time :lol: Na'feel (sp. ?) and Sara were annoying, but what would be a series or a movie without a character the audience thinks of as such. Turk seemed to me like a big teddy bear (albeit a greenish scaled one XD )
G'kar was the right person to establish a new plotline, seeing as he traveled through the whole galaxy. Besides, even if everything is supposed to be serious he manages to make you laugh (swedish meatballs anyone? :guffaw: )

One thing I was disappointed in was Minbar. Why did the planet look so dark all of a sudden? It was always shown as a friendly and bright world. And Dulan was right about the Valen, it looked horrible. Funny how different the ship looked in TLT

KoshN September 4th 10 04:28

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 352619)
It's kind of grown on me, you know?

I hear there's medicine for that. ;)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 352619)
I didn't care for it when I first saw it, but a year or two ago, I ended up watching every B5 thing in subjective order, with the movies all plugged in to their correct spaces in the timeline, then Crusade, and ending with "Sleeping in Light." It came after "River of Souls" (Which I didn't like) and before "A Call to Arms" (Which I really did like).

Seeing it that time through made me feel a profound sense that I'd missed something, you know? Not as good as B5,

Well, that goes without saying.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 352619)
of course, perhaps not even as good as Crusade,

Perhaps? PERHAPS?!?!?!!!! Out of 10, I'd rate B5 a 10, Crusade a 9, Rangers a 2, and Lost Tales a 3.5 (first story a 2, second story a 5).


Quote:

Originally Posted by Republibot 3.0 (Post 352619)
but still worth watching.

My mileage varies, A LOT.

The high watermark re. B5 movies was set with "In the Beginning" and "A Call to Arms." The Legend of the Rangers pilot was a huge step down from those. "Voices in the Dark" (terribly hampered by budget) was a slight recovery from the low ebb that was the Legend of the Rangers pilot. IMHO, the Legend of the Rangers pilot was littered with problems and mistakes from beginning to end, and there were only a few bright spots, mostly David/Dulann conversations, Dulann, Na'Feel and Firell. Most of the time when Sarah is onscreen, especially if talking, I find myself cringing.

Were it not for the lunkhead suits at The Sci-Fi Channel and Warner Brothers being the absolute perfect form of lunkheads, we'd have gotten a continuation of Crusade instead of this Legend of the Rangers monstrosity.

Sindatur September 4th 10 15:34

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
EH...The Gathering would be no masterpiece if B5 hadn't gone to series

KoshN September 4th 10 16:59

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindatur (Post 364790)
EH...The Gathering would be no masterpiece if B5 hadn't gone to series

"The Gathering" is usually rated fairly low among the B5 movies, yet nobody has to twist my arm to get me to rewatch it, either the original cut or the special edition. However, to get me to rewatch the Rangers pilot all the way through, at normal playing speed (no FF-ing), and without leaving the room or wearing earplugs or "humming real loud" during Sarah's lines (to use Sheridan's words to G'Kar in "The Coming of Shadows"), I'd pretty much have to be at gunpoint/knifepoint/swordpoint, and then I'd have to watch something good immediately afterward, to wash those memories out of my head a bit*. The only other thing that comes close to that level of awfulness, IMHO, is "Over Here" from B5:TLT.

* Same thing I had to do after Tom Cruise's "War of the Worlds" that had the constantly screaming Dakota Fanning. Gah!!! I watched George Pal's version, and then promptly sold the Cruise/Fanning version. :eek:

Sindatur September 5th 10 15:10

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Understood, but, I still wonder, if Legend of the Rangers had gone to series, and a good series developed to rival B5, would we be able to have a better impression of the Pilot? I suspect we would.

There are definitely flaws in the Rangers Pilot, but, I personally do enjoy some things about it, and enjoy wondering what could have been and where the series might have gone.

vacantlook September 5th 10 16:50

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
I can see a lot of potential in LotRangers; had it been able to build as a series, I think it would have been good. Most shows when they very first start are without bumps in the road in terms of quality of the story and characters, but with more episodes to back up the initial few, those bumps don't seem so glaring the way they do when something's cut short like LotRangers was.

KoshN September 5th 10 17:50

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindatur (Post 364807)
Understood, but, I still wonder, if Legend of the Rangers had gone to series, and a good series developed to rival B5, would we be able to have a better impression of the Pilot? I suspect we would.

There are definitely flaws in the Rangers Pilot, but, I personally do enjoy some things about it, and enjoy wondering what could have been and where the series might have gone.

Maybe, but I think that the Rangers pilot would have had a steeper path back toward redemption than even the original version of "The Gathering." I'd MUCH rather that Warner Brothers and The Sci-Fi Channel had found a way to restart Crusade, which was orders of magnitude better than the Rangers story that we got in the Rangers pilot. Crusade picked up from "A Call to Arms" and had a firm footing in and link to the Babylon 5 universe. The Rangers pilot, OTOH, had the Rangers leadership acting very strangely, and so it didn't feel right, compared to all we'd seen of the Rangers in "Babylon 5" and "Crusade." Sure, the Rangers had been on suicide missions before (e.g. Ericsson in S4E5 "The Long Night" planting Corianna 6 info. with the Shadows; the Ranger in S5E3 "The Paragon of Animals" who brought word back about the persecution of the Enfili, which Lyta got from him shortly before he died in Medlab, etc.), but those missions were always undertaken for a good reason, to save lives, not throw lives away.


Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 364811)
I can see a lot of potential in LotRangers; had it been able to build as a series, I think it would have been good. Most shows when they very first start are ....

I think you meant to put a "not" here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 364811)
....without bumps in the road in terms of quality of the story and characters, but with more episodes to back up the initial few, those bumps don't seem so glaring the way they do when something's cut short like LotRangers was.


vacantlook September 5th 10 18:59

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Yeah, there should be a "not" there. Most shows are not without bumps in the road.... Thanks for clearing up my error.

KoshN September 5th 10 22:54

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Spinoff Pilots seem to be an awfully risky place to do stuff that's clearly out of character for the parent show. e.g. the Ranger Council (which could easily be mistaken for the Grey Council, the only Minbari council we'd ever seen up to that point), and their "We do not retreat for ANY reason." insanity/stupidity.

To fans of the parent show, it looks like the writer has lost his mind, or that it was actually written by somebody who had no clue about the parent show. Then, if the pilot doesn't get good enough ratings for the TV series to be picked up (which it likely won't if the pilot looked ridiculous, like B5:LotR), the writer has no chance to fix things, no second chance, and the pilot looks like crap for the rest of time.

A 13 episode start to a spinoff, like Crusade got, is a far better way to go. If only Cousin It from Atlanta hadn't reared his ugly, rotten, spiteful head!!!!!!!! :mad:

vacantlook September 5th 10 23:54

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Rangers didn't get low ratings becaused it looked rediculous. In fact, as the broadcast went on, it picked up more viewers each quarter-hour, if I remember correctly. The problem was the huge audience that of that football game that kept viewers away from Rangers. The west coast broadcast of Rangers had very nice ratings, but since the east coast broadcast's ratings were low, that's all that seemed to matter.

I'm not disputing that Rangers had some problems. As you mentioned, having the Rangers' council look too much like the Grey Council was confusing, even to long time fans. Having Minbar look so different than every single other time we had seen it wasn't good either. And while I can appreciate what was trying to be done to set up David, not to mention several of his crew, as not quite fitting in in the Rangers, it was done too clunkily. But I still found enough of the thing to be intriguing to make me want to see more. There were several characters I liked, the Narn engineer and the Minbari healer in particular.

Triple F September 6th 10 00:27

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
The biggest problem for any sequel to overcome Ė movie, tv show or comic Ė is the expectations of the viewer. There is none, or very little, for the original but a follow-up has an immense uphill struggle to prove itself in itís own terms Ė a child in the shadow of a famous parent..

Saying that however, LoTR was pretty bad in places, and it canít be put down to lack of cash like the Lost Tales. Someone once said, and I paraphrase a bit here, you canít cut the head off a production team and expect him to function the same way without the body.

B5 worked for a lot of reasons. LoTR looked like tv sci-fi by the numbers.

I also believed it had potential (most shows do), but I have my doubts on whether it would/could have ever been reached.

KoshN September 6th 10 05:48

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 364818)
Rangers didn't get low ratings becaused it looked rediculous. In fact, as the broadcast went on, it picked up more viewers each quarter-hour, if I remember correctly. The problem was the huge audience that of that football game that kept viewers away from Rangers. The west coast broadcast of Rangers had very nice ratings, but since the east coast broadcast's ratings were low, that's all that seemed to matter.

Oh, I'm aware of the story behind the ratings. It got the ratings it got on the West Coast because it was B5 related. That's what brought people to the show. However, at the time I saw many comments after it, from B5 fans about how they'd orchestrated a group viewing of other B5 fans and others to whom they'd recommended watching B5:LotR, and how they were embarrassed by how bad it was. When I was watching it by myself, I was thankful that I was alone and not with anybody to whom I'd recommended it. Saved a big ol' :o :o :o :o :o there! I kept watching it because I kept hoping it'd get better.


Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 364818)
I'm not disputing that Rangers had some problems. As you mentioned, having the Rangers' council look too much like the Grey Council was confusing, even to long time fans.

Why JMS does that to us, I'll never know. I suspect he's just a bit evil that way.


Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 364818)
Having Minbar look so different than every single other time we had seen it wasn't good either.

True, but that didn't bother me too much. We were seeing Minbar at night. <shrug> However, the pink cotton candy hyperspace with shakeycam bothered me. So did Minbari Nials flying backwards, and that fact that we only ever saw familiar ships and B5 in the distance. However, we did get to see MaintBots up close.


Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 364818)
And while I can appreciate what was trying to be done to set up David, not to mention several of his crew, as not quite fitting in in the Rangers, it was done too clunkily.

Yes, it was in a rather ham handed fashion. How'd you like the David connect-the-dots exposition, to explain things to the viewers?


Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 364818)
But I still found enough of the thing to be intriguing to make me want to see more.

I bet I could cut it down to a good 10 or 15 minutes. In that way, it's almost as bad as "Star Trek V - The Final Frontier" which I could cut down to only the camping scenes, and come out with a decent short.


Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 364818)
There were several characters I liked, the Narn engineer and the Minbari healer in particular.

Yes, they are two of my favorite characters from the pilot. My favorite character was Dulann, the XO. I felt bad for Andreas, with the lines he was given for his last B5 universe appearance. :(

KoshN September 6th 10 06:14

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364819)
The biggest problem for any sequel to overcome – movie, tv show or comic – is the expectations of the viewer. There is none, or very little, for the original but a follow-up has an immense uphill struggle to prove itself in it’s own terms – a child in the shadow of a famous parent.

As far as I'm concerned, Crusade did well there, but it has thirteen 44 minute episodes, not just ~88 minutes.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364819)
Saying that however, LoTR was pretty bad in places, and it can’t be put down to lack of cash like the Lost Tales.

Oh yes it can! Both had $3 million budgets. Both were made after Warner Brothers lost, sold or destroyed almost all of the 1993-1999 B5 and Crusade resources. Everything made after Crusade was operating under a handicap of missing resources.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364819)
Someone once said, and I paraphrase a bit here, you can’t cut the head off a production team and expect him to function the same way without the body.

B5 worked for a lot of reasons. LoTR looked like tv sci-fi by the numbers.

B5:LotR looked like the morphing of B5 and a "Sci-Fi Channel Original" weekend Z-movie.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364819)
I also believed it had potential (most shows do), but I have my doubts on whether it would/could have ever been reached.

....because at The Sci-Fi Channel, the budget would have remained tight. Plus, it was The Sci-Fi Channel's idea to ge with a new, 20-something cast.

OMG, when I look at Crusade now, it looks like the good ol' days, and at the time it was a step down from B5. Back when Crusade was in production, only some of the B5 sets had been destroyed (because they were worn out.). By the time the Rangers pilot was filmed, almost all of the B5 & Crusade sets (even the newly constructed, post-hiatus, elaborate Crusade sets) were destroyed. Hell, I watch "The Rules of the Game" and it feels 99% like B5.

Triple F September 6th 10 09:51

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 364823)
Oh yes it can! Both had $3 million budgets. Both were made after Warner Brothers lost, sold or destroyed almost all of the 1993-1999 B5 and Crusade resources. Everything made after Crusade was operating under a handicap of missing resources.

Pretty irrelevant (to this argument at least). jms made a conscious decision to have things like the ship designs look very different Ė presumably to show there was more to the B5 Ďverse than had already been seen. One failing that the show didnít have was a lack of CGI, extras walking about or actors done up in prosthetics (which the Lost Tales did suffer from). Though I note that it did have one thing in common with Crusade. Executive interference.

At the time jms said there wasnít any (but thatís just typical hype), cost did effect the whole Liandra gun pod thing (the set for the original idea was going to be far and away the most expensive and time consuming to build), but the studio execs also felt folks wouldnít accept the concept of a fully articulated chair. Itís the same reason why the ship didnít fire beams, instead the exedcs wanted energy bolts. (I noticed that was a complaint some folks raised at the time).

Anyway, itís done and filed under crap in most folks book. Maybe a bit unfair, but there you go.

Personally, I thought A Call To Arms in a few respects was far more clumsy in execution - it also felt very rushed in places. Sheridan was looked upon as a bit of a dithering old fool for a fair section of the movie, just to fit the story. The part where the captain of the other vessel calls his little girl just before he decides he has no option but to ram the ship against the planet killer, while stating that he promised his little girl to protect her from the monsters, felt like a last minute (and poorly placed) addition.

Sections of the CGI was truly terrible, did you see the unfinished model of the Warlock fleeing the imploding death cloud. Theyíre going to look for First Ones to help find a cure for the plague. Plot twits like that are reminiscent of 1930ís serials where the viewer is treated like they had the memory retention of a gold fish. You know, buck rodgers with their cliff hangers and the next episode starts with a whole new set of the goal posts in order to allow our hero to escape.

No, didnít like it very much. That and river of souls. Not so much for the story ideas but more for how they were actually put together.

KoshN September 6th 10 12:28

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364824)
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 364823)
Oh yes it can! Both had $3 million budgets. Both were made after Warner Brothers lost, sold or destroyed almost all of the 1993-1999 B5 and Crusade resources. Everything made after Crusade was operating under a handicap of missing resources.

Pretty irrelevant (to this argument at least). jms made a conscious decision to have things like the ship designs look very different – presumably to show there was more to the B5 ‘verse than had already been seen.

Perfectly relevant. Don't know if what you said above is what JMS said somewhere, but I don't believe it [1] and in reality it was forced upon him by having no ship models of adequate resolution to be seen in anything BUT the distant background. All he had of the 1993-1999 ship models was the stuff Babylonian had given to Sierra for the aborted B5 Space Combat Flight Simulator. Warner Brothers lost everything else. That's why, other than the MaintBots we saw working on the Liandra on Minbar, all we saw in close-up were the new ships, the Valen, Liandra, and the dirty snowflake ships of the baddies (which were all made from scratch), NOT because of any "conscious decision to have things like the ship designs look very different – presumably to show there was more to the B5 ‘verse than had already been seen." The only reason they worked on the MaintBots was because they were going to be shown working on the Liandra, and the Liandra WAS going to be shown in close-up.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364824)
One failing that the show didn’t have was a lack of CGI,

Lack of good CGI. Personally, I didn't like the new oily, colloidal suspension look of space, or the pink cotton candy hyperspace with shakeycam. Why he has to constantly screw with the look of hyperspace, or come up with "quantum space" (in B5:TLT, from the Vorlons even though we can't go to that planet for a million years to be able to discover such things.), is beyond me. Seems to me that sometimes he just likes screwing with the fans to see if our heads explode. Not good. Bad JMS!!!



Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364824)
or the lack of extras walking about or actors done up in prosthetics (which the Lost Tales did suffer from).

Well, B5:LotR didn't have many extras, either (all I can remember are the various ambassadors on the Valen and then the Liandra), though it certainly had a few more than B5:TLT.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364824)
Though I note that it did have one thing in common with Crusade. Executive interference.

Some executives should be shot.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364824)
At the time jms said there wasn’t any (but that’s just typical hype), cost did effect the whole Liandra gun pod thing (the set for the original idea was going to be far and away the most expensive and time consuming to build), but the studio execs also felt folks wouldn’t accept the concept of a fully articulated chair. It’s the same reason why the ship didn’t fire beams, instead the exedcs wanted energy bolts. (I noticed that was a complaint some folks raised at the time).

The execs didn't want the Liandra to fire beams? First I've heard that one. The Enfali fired beams, for a few seconds.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364824)
Anyway, it’s done and filed under crap in most folks book. Maybe a bit unfair, but there you go.

Personally, I thought A Call To Arms in a few respects was far more clumsy in execution - it also felt very rushed in places.

"A Call to Arms" was fine art compared to the Rangers pilot.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364824)
Sheridan was looked upon as a bit of a dithering old fool for a fair section of the movie, just to fit the story.

Yeah, that was clunky. However, I think that was the first time that a technomage had communicated with him that way (electron incantation).


Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364824)
The part where the captain of the other vessel calls his little girl just before he decides he has no option but to ram the ship against the planet killer, while stating that he promised his little girl to protect her from the monsters, felt like a last minute (and poorly placed) addition.

Utterly corny.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364824)
Sections of the CGI was truly terrible, did you see the unfinished model of the Warlock fleeing the imploding death cloud.

No, but there were a helluva lot of ships flying all over the place at the time. I was watching the Excalibur, and saw a few Omega Class Destroyers and Drakh cruisers trying to escape.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364824)
They’re going to look for First Ones to help find a cure for the plague. Plot twits like that are reminiscent of 1930’s serials where the viewer is treated like they had the memory retention of a gold fish. You know, buck rodgers with their cliff hangers and the next episode starts with a whole new set of the goal posts in order to allow our hero to escape.

"First Ones" ??? or just other races. Had to be in Sheridan's voiceover at the very end. I'll have to check that out.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364824)
No, didn’t like it very much.

I loved it, and "In the Beginning." Those are my two favorite B5 TV movies, and I rate them a 9 and a 10 out of 10 respectively.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364824)
That and river of souls. Not so much for the story ideas but more for how they were actually put together.

"The River of Souls" was my least favorite B5 TV movie, UNTIL the Rangers pilot came along and made "The River of Souls" good. Lochley actually wasn't bad in "The River of Souls." At least it had a good ol' B5 feel to it. To me, the Rangers pilot felt like it was written by somebody who didn't know jack about B5. The Rangers pilot is to "Babylon 5" as the B5 novel "The Touch of Your Shadow, the Whisper of Your Name" is to "The Shadow Within" and The Technomage Trilogy.

[1] He says stuff like that to put a good face on things. It's not the unvarnished truth, but is really just PR talk.

Triple F September 6th 10 18:04

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 364825)
Perfectly relevant. Don't know if what you said above is what JMS said somewhere, but I don't believe it [1] <snip>

He did, honestly. Remember the Liandra was an old ship that was apparently haunted, and was even going to be ‘alive’ to some degree, apparently it was going to have a personality. The Valen was a new design to show co-operation between Minbari & Humans, and the flying brick thing wasn’t a reaction to the design when he saw it, it was always in the script! The dirty snow flake=new race.
http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-16469
(The stuff about the Liandra comes from Chris Wren who designed it)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN
Some executives should be shot.

No argument here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN
The execs didn't want the Liandra to fire beams? First I've heard that one. The Enfali fired beams, for a few seconds.

They didn't have a problem with beams per say. But they thought that seeing beams come out of her hands and feet would be too confusing to the viewer. That's from Chris Wren as well.


Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN
"First Ones" ??? or just other races. Had to be in Sheridan's voiceover at the very end. I'll have to check that out.

Pretty sure he said something about finding first ones that were left behind, might have imagined it, but at the time I remember thinking wtf.


Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN
[1] He says stuff like that to put a good face on things. It's not the unvarnished truth, but is really just PR talk.

Yeah, It's the producer part getting the better of him, but really just the realities of a commercial marketplace so no harm, no foul.

[edit] Forgot to add this one.
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 364825)
Personally, I didn't like the new oily, colloidal suspension look of space, or the pink cotton candy hyperspace with shakeycam. Why he has to constantly screw with the look of hyperspace, or come up with "quantum space" (in B5:TLT, from the Vorlons even though we can't go to that planet for a million years to be able to discover such things.), is beyond me. Seems to me that sometimes he just likes screwing with the fans to see if our heads explode. Not good. Bad JMS!!!

Apparently, (at least it’s how the folks at atmosphere saw it) It was to carry the joke of the reporter puking up. The original script just had hyperspace but as that was too familiar it was decided that it wouldn’t be believeable she’d react that way, so something new had to be created and quantum space was described as hyperspace but blue!!!!

And I agree with you, jms doesn’t view such things as very important it’s the point of the story which is of overriding importance, this time it was a one off gag (and as a writer I can’t blame him for that) but it does screw with the heads of a few fans. The ever increasing size of the White Star is the classic example of that. He kept adding rooms and corridors then a bloody docking bay and hanger. : ) The arguments about that I’ve read were often very heated and just a bit funny at times. Pixel counting gone made lol.

Jan September 6th 10 21:08

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364831)
Pretty sure he said something about finding first ones that were left behind, might have imagined it, but at the time I remember thinking wtf.

I think you may be thinking of this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Call to Arms
SHERIDAN: ...We know there were other races as old as the Shadows...One of them must have found a cure. We'll find them. We have to.

Jan

KoshN September 6th 10 23:57

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364831)
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 364825)
Perfectly relevant. Don't know if what you said above is what JMS said somewhere, but I don't believe it [1] <snip>

He did, honestly. Remember the Liandra was an old ship that was apparently haunted, and was even going to be Ďaliveí to some degree, apparently it was going to have a personality.

That doesn't sound good.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364831)
The Valen was a new design to show co-operation between Minbari & Humans, and the flying brick thing wasnít a reaction to the design when he saw it, it was always in the script!

http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-16469
(The stuff about the Liandra comes from Chris Wren who designed it)

I didn't have a problem with the look of the Valen, i.e. that it was shaped like a brick. Looked a little Romulan in general shape, with the fluted Minbari bonecrest edges around the sides and back. My problem was how quickly it was dispatched by the dirty snowflake ships of the cronies of The Hand (corny name :rolleyes: ). I just assumed that the Valen was outclassed by the dirty snowflake ships, and that the enemy knew exactly where to hit it and how hard to hit it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364831)
The dirty snow flake=new race.

Yeah, I know. I remember the movie, even if I haven't been able to force myself to watch it in years.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364831)
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN
Some executives should be shot.

No argument here.

They didn't have a problem with beams per say. But they thought that seeing beams come out of her hands and feet would be too confusing to the viewer. That's from Chris Wren as well.


That whole Liandra weapons firing method was a fiasco. When they couldn't get the chair, they should have gone to a Whitestar style firing setup, not early Whitestar with the two Minbari in motorized chairs (unnecessarily complex, and we never saw what these Minbari actually did.), but latter Whitestar like they had with Marcus or Lennier doing the firing.






Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364831)
Pretty sure he said something about finding first ones that were left behind, might have imagined it, but at the time I remember thinking wtf.

I'll address this in reply to Jan's post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364831)
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN
[1] He says stuff like that to put a good face on things. It's not the unvarnished truth, but is really just PR talk.

Yeah, It's the producer part getting the better of him, but really just the realities of a commercial marketplace so no harm, no foul.

Yes, but you have to take stuff said before the movie comes out with a grain of salt because of it.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364831)
[edit] Forgot to add this one.
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 364825)
Personally, I didn't like the new oily, colloidal suspension look of space, or the pink cotton candy hyperspace with shakeycam. Why he has to constantly screw with the look of hyperspace, or come up with "quantum space" (in B5:TLT, from the Vorlons even though we can't go to that planet for a million years to be able to discover such things.), is beyond me. Seems to me that sometimes he just likes screwing with the fans to see if our heads explode. Not good. Bad JMS!!!

Apparently, (at least itís how the folks at atmosphere saw it) It was to carry the joke of the reporter puking up.

As Jay Leno has been known to say, that' a long way to go for a joke. Not worth it. Now, the B5 universe is saddled with it.

When you wrote "Apparently, (at least itís how the folks at atmosphere saw it)" were you also talking about what I called "the new oily, colloidal suspension look of space" ? I know that JMS wanted to tinker with the look of hyperspace to make it look more 3D and turbulent. I just wish he'd kept the color of normal hyperspace the same as in B5 and Crusade. Why pink? GAH!!!


Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364831)
The original script just had hyperspace but as that was too familiar it was decided that it wouldnít be believeable sheíd react that way, so something new had to be created and quantum space was described as hyperspace but blue!!!!

So, DITCH THE JOKE!



Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364831)
And I agree with you, jms doesnít view such things as very important itís the point of the story which is of overriding importance, this time it was a one off gag (and as a writer I canít blame him for that) but it does screw with the heads of a few fans.

Visual continuity IS important. It makes movies and TV shows that are supposedly part of the B5 universe, FEEL LIKE they ARE part of that universe. When you start screwing around too much, like the changing color of regular hyperspace, and the introduction of "quantum space," you RUIN the harmony, the familial feeling of the movies and TV shows. In B5, the texture of hyperspace evolved, but the color stayed pretty much the same. Then in Rangers, it's freaking PINK! If he'd just messed with the texture some more, I could have lived with that, but to step-change the color (sort of a burnt orange-red to "BAM!" PINK?) No. This was like the change in color of the jump points from B5 to Crusade, but waaaay worse. In Crusade, the jump point vortex colors were less saturated.




Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364831)
The ever increasing size of the White Star is the classic example of that. He kept adding rooms and corridors then a bloody docking bay and hanger. : ) The arguments about that Iíve read were often very heated and just a bit funny at times. Pixel counting gone made lol.

I didn't have too much of a problem with that.

KoshN September 7th 10 00:06

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 364836)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364831)
Pretty sure he said something about finding first ones that were left behind, might have imagined it, but at the time I remember thinking wtf.

I think you may be thinking of this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Call to Arms
SHERIDAN: ...We know there were other races as old as the Shadows...One of them must have found a cure. We'll find them. We have to.

Jan


I think that was Sheridan spouting a little PR talk. You have to realize who he's addressing. Do these people know that Lorien took all the remaining First Ones away with him at Corianna 6? Probably not. Remember Marcus' conversation with the Mars Resistance leaders and how little they knew of The Shadow War? (Racing Mars) Marcus, "Just my luck! My first time in my life, I'm a war hero and nobody knows about it."

Sheridan's just trying to keep people's spirits up at this dark time, and give them a good feeling about the chances of the Excalibur's mission. Besides, they don't have to find First Ones, just other races who might have been exposed to the same plague (which is just really a Shadow test, with the worthy races finding a cure in time.....survival of the fittest.).

Jan September 7th 10 02:54

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 364838)
I think that was Sheridan spouting a little PR talk. You have to realize who he's addressing. Do these people know that Lorien took all the remaining First Ones away with him at Corianna 6? Probably not.

He was talking to Lochley and Garibaldi.

Jan

KoshN September 7th 10 05:04

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 364842)
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 364838)
I think that was Sheridan spouting a little PR talk. You have to realize who he's addressing. Do these people know that Lorien took all the remaining First Ones away with him at Corianna 6? Probably not.

He was talking to Lochley and Garibaldi.

Jan

Well then, maybe then he'd suffered a brain fart.

Triple F September 7th 10 11:55

Re: Legend of the Rangers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 364836)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple F (Post 364831)
Pretty sure he said something about finding first ones that were left behind, might have imagined it, but at the time I remember thinking wtf.

I think you may be thinking of this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Call to Arms
SHERIDAN: ...We know there were other races as old as the Shadows...One of them must have found a cure. We'll find them. We have to.

Jan

Thatís the one. But it was also a line used a little before it - when itís mentioned the Shadows technology was centuries ahead of their own so how could they hope to find a cure within 5 years, and they knew that there was races at least as old as the shadows out there. Itís sounds a bit like a typo, or rearranging the B5 verse a little as coming in contact with ancient civilisations Millions of years ahead of humans (which shadows where originally supposed to be) was going to be problematic (from a show making viewpoint). Maybe he was thinking Drakh and it came out shadows . . . .dunno.


Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN
That whole Liandra weapons firing method was a fiasco. When they couldn't get the chair, they should have gone to a Whitestar style firing setup, not early Whitestar with the two Minbari in motorized chairs (unnecessarily complex, and we never saw what these Minbari actually did.),

He wanted to show something different. And it certainly was that. ; )


Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN
I didn't have a problem with the look of the Valen, i.e. that it was shaped like a brick. Looked a little Romulan in general shape, with the fluted Minbari bonecrest edges around the sides and back. My problem was how quickly it was dispatched by the dirty snowflake ships of the cronies of The Hand (corny name ). I just assumed that the Valen was outclassed by the dirty snowflake ships, and that the enemy knew exactly where to hit it and how hard to hit it.

I didnít have a problem with the look either, and yeah, it did have a bit of a romulan ST:TNG feet to it. The scene showing itís destruction was a right mess, it didnít come out the way it was meant to. But a few things had gone wrong with the CGI. Chris spent a while creating a hi-rez texture map for the planet B5 orbits but couldnít believe it was missing from the final shot!!

jms has said that the LoTR hyperspace was a bit more how he originally envisaged it, Dangerous and turbulent basically. Said it looked better than how it did when made by lightwave. The software had nothing to do with it really (the LoTR one was created in Maya) but it was recreated from scratch and itís the addition of volumetric (sp) elements which goes a fair way to set that up, and it takes time to render). Alec was saying the same thing about Quantum space in the Lost Tales Ė they didnít have time to fill it out as much as they wanted!!

A thing to remember is that although they didnít have the models of the original B5 ships they could have replaced a few of the Ďimportantí ones. But instead they designed and built 4 new vessels, and used the low res stuff from the library given to the Sierra game as background fillers.

LoTR was meant to show new stuff. But I think it showed a little bit too much new stuff in one go, and having a new Canadian EFX team (who largely didnít know what B5 was BTW) didnít help. As for the writing/acting . . . . . . mewww, that's just personal taste and was a bit stringy in places.

Quote:

Visual continuity IS important. It makes movies and TV shows that are supposedly part of the B5 universe, FEEL LIKE they ARE part of that universe. When you start screwing around too much, like the changing color of regular hyperspace, and the introduction of "quantum space," you RUIN the harmony, the familial feeling of the movies and TV shows. In B5, the texture of hyperspace evolved, but the color stayed pretty much the same. Then in Rangers, it's freaking PINK! If he'd just messed with the texture some more, I could have lived with that, but to step-change the color (sort of a burnt orange-red to "BAM!" PINK?) No. This was like the change in color of the jump points from B5 to Crusade, but waaaay worse. In Crusade, the jump point vortex colors were less saturated.
I completely agree with that. But I think it boils down to this idea that itís the story that important. However, the narrative of a story is an important element and in some respects jms focuses a bit more on the dialogue side of things.

The B5 Ďverse is just a setting for that dialogue and is Ė to a degree Ė a poor second cousin to the dialogue. It could explain some of the things discussed here, Shadows centuries older than humans, the Liandra weapons system, Quantum space to frame a joke, jump points looking different . . . . . . . . But thatís another topic of debate all together.


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