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Crusader August 30th 07 20:08

Marcus???
 
He was without a doubt one of my favourite characters. his line in that first episode of Season 3 made me laugh so much:


Lurker: I Dont Like Insults

Marcus: Thats funny with a face like yours i would have thought youd be used to it

What happened, was him being "killed" off (and i used the term killed loosely) a planned plot line or did the actor want out??? And hed better be in some future editon of TLT. He was great lol

Jan August 30th 07 20:13

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crusader (Post 307560)
What happened, was him being "killed" off (and i used the term killed loosely) a planned plot line or did the actor want out???

JMS needed Ivanova to get to a certain place emotionally and this was how he did it. He's said on the DVD commentaries that had he known ahead of time that Claudia was leaving, he'd never have killed off Marcus.

Jan

Elenopa August 30th 07 20:21

Re: Marcus???
 
I certainly hope will be in TLT at some point.

Before that, if you want my take on the Marcus story, there is my fanfiction at http://www.fanfiction.net/~hilaryweston :D

Shabaz August 30th 07 20:51

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crusader (Post 307560)
And hed better be in some future editon of TLT. He was great lol

No word about that. But JMS has mentioned that the TLT format is flexible enough to allow hopping in the timeline, and maybe do things like a Marcus or Sinclair story, which wouldn't be possible without that flexibility. So there's hope, I suppose.

Crusader August 30th 07 21:58

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shabaz (Post 307565)
No word about that. But JMS has mentioned that the TLT format is flexible enough to allow hopping in the timeline, and maybe do things like a Marcus or Sinclair story, which wouldn't be possible without that flexibility. So there's hope, I suppose.


Good Sinclair id like to see again aswell, bt the sarchasm of marcus made season 3 and 4 all the more enjoyable

maneth August 31st 07 06:12

Re: Marcus???
 
Yeah, I liked Marcus. Even though Claudia Christian is one of my favorite actresses and Ivanova my favorite character on B5, I don't think it was fair to sacrifice Marcus for her sake, especially since she left the show.

vacantlook August 31st 07 06:34

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maneth (Post 307617)
Yeah, I liked Marcus. Even though Claudia Christian is one of my favorite actresses and Ivanova my favorite character on B5, I don't think it was fair to sacrifice Marcus for her sake, especially since she left the show.

Marcus's sacrifice was written and filmed before Claudia chose to leave the show; jms has said that had he known when he wrote it that Claudia would eventually choose to leave, he wouldn't have killed Marcus. Marcus's sacrifice was a set up for what would become a relationship between Ivanova and Byron in season five; Ivanova would be afraid of *not acting* on her feelings toward Byron out of regret for having not acted on her feelings toward Marcus. And in that would have been the biggest element of the drama of the whole telepath colony arc, if you ask me -- that and Ivanova having to call in Bester to deal with the rogue telepaths.

Sindatur August 31st 07 15:01

Re: Marcus???
 
Was Ivanov's telepathy supposed to grow a little bit during her relationship with Byron? I mean I realize she would never have gotten beyond a P1 or P2, but, I once heard she was supposed to grow a bit, which would increase the drama with having to call in Bester? Anyone ever heard anything about that?

Boxie August 31st 07 15:37

Re: Marcus???
 
Susan and Byron??? :D Eeeewwwww!

Sorry, not a huge Byron fan... :D but Susan rocks! As for Marcus, I LOVED him! What a great character!

maneth August 31st 07 16:08

Re: Marcus???
 
Yeah, I'm not a great Byron fan either so I quite like how that panned out. Still, it would've been interesting to see Ivanova continue on the show.

raw_bean August 31st 07 16:19

Re: Marcus???
 
If you're not Byron fans you should rather like how it was originally planned than how it ended up panning out. If the Civil War arc had carried over into season 5, the Byron-Ivanova relationship (instead of Byron-Lyta) and Tradgedy of Telepaths storyline would have been over in a scant few episodes, rather than half a series of long-haired weirdos singing about how we'll all come together in a better place.

vacantlook August 31st 07 16:27

Re: Marcus???
 
I'm not sure I've ever heard that Ivanova's telepathic ability was going to grow, but I wouldn't be surprised. If the relationship part of what we got between Lyta and Byron was originally going to have been between Ivanova and Byron, I imagine the telepaths learning that they were the products of Vorlon creations for use as weapons against the Shadows would have come out while Ivanova and Byron went at it, so maybe Ivanova's latent powers came out more strongly then?

vacantlook August 31st 07 16:31

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by raw_bean (Post 307663)
...If the Civil War arc had carried over into season 5, the Byron-Ivanova relationship (instead of Byron-Lyta) and Tradgedy of Telepaths storyline would have been over in a scant few episodes....

It's my understanding that the telepath colony would have been established toward the end of season four, had jms not bumped it in order to get in the end of the Earth Civil War arc. So, I'm not sure the overall amount of time the telepaths would have been around would have been all that less, it just wouldn't have felt all clumped together the way it does now.

Boxie August 31st 07 20:19

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maneth (Post 307660)
Still, it would've been interesting to see Ivanova continue on the show.

I agree! :D Absofragginlutely!

raw_bean September 3rd 07 11:42

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 307665)
It's my understanding that the telepath colony would have been established toward the end of season four, had jms not bumped it in order to get in the end of the Earth Civil War arc. So, I'm not sure the overall amount of time the telepaths would have been around would have been all that less, it just wouldn't have felt all clumped together the way it does now.

You're right about introducing the telepaths earlier, but I'm pretty sure in the script books JMS said their story would've been briefer, and Byron's in particular (the Byron-Ivanova relationship only encompassing an episode or so).

Crusader September 3rd 07 12:24

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by raw_bean (Post 307825)
You're right about introducing the telepaths earlier, but I'm pretty sure in the script books JMS said their story would've been briefer, and Byron's in particular (the Byron-Ivanova relationship only encompassing an episode or so).

Well its a shame that isnt the way it went down. While overall i probably preferr Season 5 out of all the rest that 12 or so episode arc and especially the character of Byron really annoyed me. Especially the singing lol

Ranger1 September 3rd 07 17:19

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crusader (Post 307826)
Well its a shame that isnt the way it went down. While overall i probably preferr Season 5 out of all the rest that 12 or so episode arc and especially the character of Byron really annoyed me. Especially the singing lol

my god how can you not be a season 3 whore?

besides byrons character was probably the worst written character in the entire show.

Crusader September 3rd 07 17:40

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger1 (Post 307846)
my god how can you not be a season 3 whore?

Season 3 Comes Close lol, Especially given the entrance of Marcus. But i preferred the Presidential Storylines was all. If I had to rank the series and movies of the B5 univers it would go
  1. Babylon 5: A Call to Arms
  2. Crusade
  3. The Legend of The Rangers
  4. B5 TLT: Voices In The Dark
  5. Babylon 5 Season 5
  6. Babylon 5 Season 1 (because of Sinclair)
  7. Babylon 5 Season 3 (because of Marcus and the fights)
  8. Babylon 5 Season 4
  9. Babylon 5: The River of Souls
  10. Babylon 5 Season 2
  11. Babylon 5: The Gathering
  12. Babylon 5: In The Beginning
  13. Babylon 5: Thirdspace (worst of the bunch, bt is B5 so still gd lol)
Im sure many would disagree, well lets see.

Lousy_Dodgers September 3rd 07 18:41

Re: Marcus???
 
This leads me to wonder whether Byron would have been less annoying if he had only been in a few episodes. Secondly, how would his lines have changed if he had been talking to Ivonova rather than Lyta? I really cannot imagine Ivonova putting up with any "willow tree" crap.

KoshN September 4th 07 03:09

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxie (Post 307652)
Susan and Byron??? :D Eeeewwwww!

Sorry, not a huge Byron fan... :D but Susan rocks! As for Marcus, I LOVED him! What a great character!

Byron and ANY of the B5 women I like..... "Eeeewwwww!" Talk about Ivanova trading down!

KoshN September 4th 07 03:17

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lousy_Dodgers (Post 307855)
This leads me to wonder whether Byron would have been less annoying if he had only been in a few episodes. Secondly, how would his lines have changed if he had been talking to Ivonova rather than Lyta? I really cannot imagine Ivonova putting up with any "willow tree" crap.

Byron would have been less annoying if played by a different actor. I can't stand Robin Atkin Downes as Morann (In the Beginning) or Grey Council #1 (Atonement), either.

If JMS was trying to cast and write the most annoying character imaginable, with Byron, he succeeded.

raw_bean September 4th 07 10:44

Re: Marcus???
 
I thought RAD was quite good as Morann, and I even thought he did quite well with Byron, and some of the writing for the character was quite good. I think the problem was that he was a character who could have been ok in small doses, but we just got too damn much of him.

KoshFan September 4th 07 14:53

Re: Marcus???
 
Byron never bothered me much... but I'll confess that with my spotty coverage of Season 5, I still haven't actually heard the telepath song. (Or seen Rebo and Zooty, for that matter.) That might be a factor.

hypatia September 4th 07 15:39

Re: Marcus???
 
I think it's mostly the men who have such a huge problem with the character Byron.

Most of the female fans of the show that I know around where I am seemed to key to Byron's part in the plot easier than the guys.

RW7427 September 5th 07 06:16

Re: Marcus???
 
I just can't see Susan with Byron. :eek:

**Shudders**

vacantlook September 5th 07 08:30

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RW7427
I just can't see Susan with Byron.

That's part of the point of it all; Byron wasn't the kind of guy that Ivanova could thoroughly be with, but with the death of Marcus and her regret over having never expressed her feelings to him, she would swing the pendulum too far in the opposite direction and end up in a relationship that wasn't right for her.

raw_bean September 5th 07 10:07

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hypatia (Post 307984)
I think it's mostly the men who have such a huge problem with the character Byron.

Most of the female fans of the show that I know around where I am seemed to key to Byron's part in the plot easier than the guys.

I can see his part in the plot (in a general sense), but I think the telepath arc in S5 feels a little laboured and stretched out, and he muscles his way into episodes that aren't really about that arc too. Those are symptoms of the whole S4/S5/Claudia Christian leaving debacle, I'm sure.

Also, at the end of the day, even excepting his place in the story, Byron is someone I just wouldn't like in real life - I'm like Zack I guess. :)

Lousy_Dodgers September 7th 07 19:11

Re: Marcus???
 
Yeah, I felt rather sympathetic to Zack too. I did find some of Byron's lines interesting though since I had just finished reading Hamlet in English lit when he appeared so I was picking up on many of his references. That was kind of cool but the whole willow tree and BCFMO stuff annoyed me to no end...to say nothing of the singing telepaths.

Out of curiousity, has JMS ever addressed the rather widespread unpopularity of Byron (at least among male viewers)? I am just curious if he was surprised by it or if he understood how the drawn out telepath arc might have left that part of the story a bit thin...

Just for fun, imagine Byron going on walkabout. I would love to hear what he would have to say to himself as I imagine the second Byron to be about 100 times as critical as the second Dr. Franklin.

KoshFan September 7th 07 19:39

Re: Marcus???
 
I imagine that in a way, Byron did go on walkabout, but back in his Psi Cop days. The critical side of him took over, forced him to quit the Corps, and started lashing out at others as well.

KoshN September 7th 07 19:54

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by raw_bean (Post 307962)
I thought RAD was quite good as Morann,

He was easier to take as Morann, but then again that character was supposed to be annoying. RAD as Byron grates on my nerves.


Quote:

Originally Posted by raw_bean (Post 307962)
...and I even thought he did quite well with Byron, and some of the writing for the character was quite good.

He, the character and the actor, was too effeminate for me to stand. I couldn't see either Ivanova or Lyta going for a guy like him in a million years. Marcus, yeah, but not Byron! :p


Quote:

Originally Posted by raw_bean (Post 307962)
...I think the problem was that he was a character who could have been ok in small doses, but we just got too damn much of him.

That was part of the problem. Other parts were his long, wavy blonde hair, the passivity, and the whole bohemian. longhaired group.

vacantlook September 7th 07 19:59

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by raw_bean
...Byron is someone I just wouldn't like in real life....

I think that's intended. Byron holds the position of rebel telepath leader, and I think that we all are conditioned due to knowing how horrible the Psi Corps is to look at that position and think that someone in that position has gotta be a hero type that we should easily like. So we develop this kind of dissonance of opinion over him. But I don't think we were ever meant to like Byron as if he could be a friend. He was still a product of Psi Corps and Bester: he thought telepaths were superior to non-telepaths, and he could never truly be the leader telepaths needed to fight back against Psi Corps.

Mindwalker September 7th 07 19:59

Re: Marcus???
 
anybody know if Jason Carter would be available/willing to do episodes of B5: TLT?

Ranger1 September 7th 07 22:25

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mindwalker (Post 308213)
anybody know if Jason Carter would be available/willing to do episodes of B5: TLT?

that would be so fucking cool.

Crusader September 7th 07 23:27

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mindwalker (Post 308213)
anybody know if Jason Carter would be available/willing to do episodes of B5: TLT?

i cant see any reason why he would be opposed but were he to it would be a fairly odd story were Claudia Christian not involved in some way

AnlaShokGrey September 8th 07 01:15

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crusader (Post 308219)
i cant see any reason why he would be opposed but were he to it would be a fairly odd story were Claudia Christian not involved in some way

I'm sure Jason would be thrilled to get the chance to do an episode of TLT, since he isn't do much acting these days. But why do you think it would be odd without Claudia? Marcus was a legitimate character in his own right, distinct from storylines that intersected with Ivanova. How about seeing him during his Ranger training days? That would even give Michael O'Hare a chance to come back, too. And, no Ivanova necessary (or possible, in fact).

Amy

KoshFan September 8th 07 01:22

Re: Marcus???
 
Hasn't Michael O'Hare been the most elusive of all the actors?

Marcus' Ranger training was pretty well covered in "To Dream in the City of Sorrows," but he's a Ranger -- surely he had plenty of adventures we didn't see.

Lousy_Dodgers September 8th 07 07:24

Re: Marcus???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 308212)
I think that's intended. Byron holds the position of rebel telepath leader, and I think that we all are conditioned due to knowing how horrible the Psi Corps is to look at that position and think that someone in that position has gotta be a hero type that we should easily like. So we develop this kind of dissonance of opinion over him. But I don't think we were ever meant to like Byron as if he could be a friend. He was still a product of Psi Corps and Bester: he thought telepaths were superior to non-telepaths, and he could never truly be the leader telepaths needed to fight back against Psi Corps.


That is a good point; I would add that Byron probably retained the same personality that he would have had if Ivanova had remained for the 5th season. As JMS intended to show that he was not the right one for her, I think it makes sense that there would be elements of his personality that fans would see and react against. If he had a character with which more fans idenified and felt sympathy for, then it would be harder to portray him as a failed relationship for Ivanova.

hypatia September 8th 07 14:50

Re: Marcus???
 
That's one thing I never quite understood about some fans' vehement hatred of a character who was meant to be basically exactly as he came across.

Keep in mind, folks, that JMS had high hopes back then of being offered an opportunity to do a theatrical movie based on the Telepath Wars. Can't you see that the kind of attitude-duality we see in Byron makes a lot of sense?

He's been corrupted, and was carefully molded to be basically a dangerous bully, like all the Psi cops. He madly throws himself into an attempt to reverse things, and to win the fight by bringing out the better part of his nature.

I also find it rather humorous that a culture that professes to worship Jesus Christ as a savior really, really tend to hate people who actually live as Jesus supposedly lived. :)

In any event, so now you have a man who was, quite truthfully, exceptionally good at what he was being trained to do. He quite bravely made a huge effort to escape that fate, and then to correct some of the horrible damage done by Psi Corps.

But he's still, fundamentally, an angry, powerful, dangerous man. He can keep his anger under control, but his followers can't. Hmmm, sound familiar? ;)

But everyone seems to be so understanding of Lyta's anger. Of course, we get to see more of her story from a personal level, so it's more natural to sympathize with her. But I've heard many people discussing the truth behind the assertion made in the series that Lyta (and other telepaths who have helped them like Talia) tend to get screwed over by us "normals".

I think the sad truth is that most of us just can't relate to someone making such a major change that he'd risk his own life to try to find a better option for his people. Of course he was out to help his people, and his people only. What do you expect? His people are the ones getting screwed whether they cooperate with the Psi Corps or they cooperate with their enemies. They are never going to find ANY group that will actually give a hoot about their lives and their fates.

Considering how fans (male fans in particular) responded to Marcus, I'd say it's a good thing he had some cool lines and some great fighting scenes. I wonder how much of that is the reason he's so relatively popular while Byron is so often ranted against.

But of course, there is also the fact that most of us probably wouldn't or couldn't do what he did. Let's face it, folks, your choices were pretty much to cooperate, and slaughter "mundanes" at the slightest whim, or to be hunted down and eventually probably killed by Psi Corps. I think sometimes we have trouble admitting that Byron's forced attempt to find some kind of other solution is a task too great for most of us to even attempt.

If JMS had written Byron to be the fighting-messiah type (Barabas instead of Jesus), perhaps he'd be more generally well liked. He'd have had some cool fight scenes at least, eh? ;)

Since people love to rant on and on about how horrible Byron is, I have to pop in every now and then and offer another perspective on the situation. You may continue the Byron-bashing any time his name comes up again, now. :)

KoshFan September 8th 07 16:11

Re: Marcus???
 
Ho, hyp, a cogent analysis!

hypatia September 8th 07 16:17

Re: Marcus???
 
Every now and then I can surprise people. :D

The one-sentence version is: "you're supposed to hate Byron". :lol:

;)


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