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-   -   EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=10150)

vacantlook July 6th 07 05:27

EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Lurker's Guide page for Ruling From The Tomb

Ranger1 July 6th 07 20:54

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
gave it a B, good episode but it has to be downgraded due to the continuity errors.

KoshN July 7th 07 01:28

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger1 (Post 302178)
.....due to the continuity errors.

:confused: Care to explain? This is the episode of Crusade that I grade the lowest, but right now, having just come in from work, and with my brain really frazzled (Some people today got on my last nerve.), I'll be damned if I can recall any "continuity errors" in Ruling from the Tomb. :confused:

I am going to watch it tonight before I grade it and make any comments.

KoshN July 9th 07 16:52

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
'D' - Poor. IMHO, the worst Crusade episode. Worse than War Zone. The connections and logic in a lot of the main story seemed forced, artificial and sometimes didn't make sense. The dialogue was sometimes clunky. The whole idea of a physical meeting was bad, as Gideon comments. The fight scenes were poorly choreographed and acted.

I liked only the character moments, e.g. Eilerson, Dureena and Trace in the shuttle, Eilerson and Dureena when walking in the street in Mars Dome, Gideon and Lochley at the first crime scene, the bar scenes, etc.

Also, the initial CGI looked very good to me, as good as any Mars scenes we ever saw on "Babylon 5".

The "music" (irritating noise actually, boings, babies crying, dogs barking, etc.) over the end credits was hideously bad. It was thoroughly unprofessional, self-indulgent crap on Chen's part, and I cannot use the word crap strongly enough here in relation to the "music" on during the end credits. THAT should have been rejected by the producers. This episode was made 3rd from the last, and it must have been when the producers were at a low ebb and just didn't give a damn.

Were it not for the character moments I listed above, I'd have given it an 'F' - Failure. I almost gave it that anyway.

RMcD July 13th 07 15:09

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 302518)
I liked only the character moments, e.g. Eilerson, Dureena and Trace in the shuttle, Eilerson and Dureena when walking in the street in Mars Dome, Gideon and Lochley at the first crime scene, the bar scenes, etc.

I agree, I rewatched this episode recently remembering it as being one of the weakest (along with Rules of the Game), and was surprised to realise that if you filter out the actual plot it's actually one of the better ones in terms of character interaction and dialogue. JMS' writing seemed to be showing signs of fatigue from S4 onwards, and it's an odd fact that Fiona Avery and Peter David seemed able to contribute scripts that sounded in some ways more quintessentially JMS than JMS himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 302518)
The "music" (irritating noise actually, boings, babies crying, dogs barking, etc.) over the end credits was hideously bad. It was thoroughly unprofessional, self-indulgent crap on Chen's part, and I cannot use the word crap strongly enough here in relation to the "music" on during the end credits. THAT should have been rejected by the producers. This episode was made 3rd from the last, and it must have been when the producers were at a low ebb and just didn't give a damn.

Yeah, some B5 episodes had established the idea of using different music over the end credits, but in those cases it was always relevant in some way and made sense in the context of the episode. Here it just seemed completely gratuitous and meaningless.

KoshN July 13th 07 15:22

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RMcD (Post 302962)
Yeah, some B5 episodes had established the idea of using different music over the end credits, but in those cases it was always relevant in some way and made sense in the context of the episode. Here it just seemed completely gratuitous and meaningless.

Crusade also did that on a couple of occasions:

In an ep. when Galen left listening to his own music on his ship, and it carried over onto the end credits.

The Needs of Earth - the music, probably from the recovered data crystals, is played as Gideon walks down the hallway, away from Dureena's quarters. It's probably Dureena playing that music.

KoshN July 15th 07 15:53

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger1 (Post 302178)
....due to the continuity errors.

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r...ys/waiting.gif

Sindatur July 16th 07 14:13

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 303158)


Isn't this episode one of two times Lochley and Gideon meet for the first time?

RMcD July 16th 07 18:01

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindatur (Post 303262)
Isn't this episode one of two times Lochley and Gideon meet for the first time?

Is the other one Each Night I Dream of Home? I thought that episode had been re-edited to gloss over it (People keep mentioning this, but I've never noticed that they meet for the first time twice - in fact Gideon's first words to Lochley are 'good to see you again Captain', and we can probably assume that her being injured is the only reason they don't make a beeline for the nearest shower).

KoshN July 16th 07 18:19

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
IF ANYBODY HAS "RULING FROM THE TOMB" SCRIPTS, I'M CURIOUS IF THERE WAS ANY VERSION WITHOUT THE GIDEON/LOCHLEY INTRO. DIALOGUE.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindatur (Post 303262)
Isn't this episode one of two times Lochley and Gideon meet for the first time?

This is the episode where Lochley meets Gideon for the first time. It's obvious in the non-looped dialogue at the beginning of the episode.

The other episode to which you're referring, Each Night I Dream of Home, got looped (The original words got replaced. You can tell by the different sound of Gideon's lines.), and it was evidently planned to be the episode where they first met.

Each Night I Dream of Home, Pink Revisions, Sept. 9, 1998. brief excerpt:

ACT TWO

36 INT. MEDBAY

A recently-awakened Lochley is in a medbed as Gideon enters.

GIDEON
I hope I'm not bothering you. They told me you were awake.

LOCHLEY
No, it's fine.

GIDEON
(extends a hand)
Captain Matthew Gideon, Earth Alliance Starship Excalibur.

LOCHLEY
Captain Elizabeth Lochley, Babylon 5.

GIDEON
What happened?

LOCHLEY
We'd set a trap for some raiders.....~




Each Night I Dream of Home is now to be their second episode together, and The Rules of the Game, their third and last together (in the produced Crusade 13 episodes).

Sindatur July 16th 07 18:27

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RMcD (Post 303290)
Is the other one Each Night I Dream of Home? I thought that episode had been re-edited to gloss over it (People keep mentioning this, but I've never noticed that they meet for the first time twice - in fact Gideon's first words to Lochley are 'good to see you again Captain', and we can probably assume that her being injured is the only reason they don't make a beeline for the nearest shower).

Hmmm...I don't recall a change of dialogue. I just know in the episode on Mars they meet for the first time, and he doesn't know her when he picks her damaged ship up. When or where was this edit done? On SciFi airing, on the DVD set?

Jan July 16th 07 18:38

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
The line where he's greeting Lochley in Medlab was looped before the episode ever aired. You'll notice that you can't see Gideon's face at all as he speaks the 'Good to see you again' line. It's slightly telltale after he invites her to dinner in is quarters when she asks him if he'll be serving anything bigger than her head and he says "Not of a first date".

Jan

Sindatur July 16th 07 18:45

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 303297)
The line where he's greeting Lochley in Medlab was looped before the episode ever aired. You'll notice that you can't see Gideon's face at all as he speaks the 'Good to see you again' line. It's slightly telltale after he invites her to dinner in is quarters when she asks him if he'll be serving anything bigger than her head and he says "Not of a first date".

Jan

I guess I'll need to watch the eps again, but, what I remember it seems very obvious they didn't know each other in either episode. Don't they actually introduce themselves to each other in both episodes?

KoshN July 16th 07 18:59

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RMcD (Post 303290)
Is the other one Each Night I Dream of Home? I thought that episode had been re-edited to gloss over it (People keep mentioning this, but I've never noticed that they meet for the first time twice - in fact Gideon's first words to Lochley are 'good to see you again Captain', .....

That's the looped line.

KoshN July 16th 07 19:02

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindatur (Post 303299)
I guess I'll need to watch the eps again, but, what I remember it seems very obvious they didn't know each other in either episode.

The looped line in Each Night I Dream of Home establishes that they have met before.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindatur (Post 303299)
Don't they actually introduce themselves to each other in both episodes?

No, not in what we were shown in the produced episodes.

Jan July 16th 07 21:56

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 303304)
The looped line in Each Night I Dream of Home establishes that they have met before.

I just verified the looping in Each Night. In every copy of the script that I have (first Draft-8/3/98, Final Draft-8/19/98 and shooting script-through Blue Revisions 9/9/98) Gideon and Lochley introduce themselves.

I knew hanging on to these early drafts would come in handy!
:)
Jan

RMcD July 16th 07 22:23

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Yeah, I thought that might be a loop.

I found one of the things JMS mentioned on one of the commentary tracks pretty scary - that after the hiatus in production and the uniform change there was some kind of debate with TNT as to whether the 5 grey suit episodes should actually go through post and be completed at all.. <shivers>

Sindatur July 16th 07 22:27

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 303322)
I just verified the looping in Each Night. In every copy of the script that I have (first Draft-8/3/98, Final Draft-8/19/98 and shooting script-through Blue Revisions 9/9/98) Gideon and Lochley introduce themselves.

I knew hanging on to these early drafts would come in handy!
:)
Jan

So, I did remember correctly, they introduce themselves to each other in both episodes, afterall?

Jan July 16th 07 22:41

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindatur (Post 303325)
So, I did remember correctly, they introduce themselves to each other in both episodes, afterall?

No, not in the versions that were aired. As I mentioned earlier, in the final, aired version Gideon is looped saying that it's good to see Lochley again as he walks into her room in the Medbay. His back is toward the camera and you can't see his face at all.

In the *script* if 'Each Night I Dream of Home', they introduce themselves. That part was cut in the aired episode.

Jan

Sindatur July 16th 07 22:55

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 303331)
No, not in the versions that were aired. As I mentioned earlier, in the final, aired version Gideon is looped saying that it's good to see Lochley again as he walks into her room in the Medbay. His back is toward the camera and you can't see his face at all.

In the *script* if 'Each Night I Dream of Home', they introduce themselves. That part was cut in the aired episode.

Jan


This is so bizarre, I've never seen the scripts, yet, I clearly remember it. I really gotta rewatch to ease my mind

KoshN July 17th 07 13:48

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 303322)
I just verified the looping in Each Night. In every copy of the script that I have (first Draft-8/3/98, Final Draft-8/19/98 and shooting script-through Blue Revisions 9/9/98) Gideon and Lochley introduce themselves.

I knew hanging on to these early drafts would come in handy!
:)
Jan

Jan,

Did you check the Ruling from the Tomb scripts? Did they always contain the intro we saw onscreen?

Jan July 17th 07 14:18

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 303370)
Did you check the Ruling from the Tomb scripts? Did they always contain the intro we saw onscreen?

I'll check when I get home and let you know.

Jan

crazyhorse July 17th 07 19:53

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindatur (Post 303332)
This is so bizarre, I've never seen the scripts, yet, I clearly remember it. I really gotta rewatch to ease my mind

It is easy to confuse with what you have read here :)

Sindatur July 17th 07 20:43

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyhorse (Post 303431)
It is easy to confuse with what you have read here :)


While that's certainly true, and I may be remembering wrong, I'm remembering this episode was aired first, (before knowing all this stuff of the Conspiracy to commit crib murder on Crusade) and then I was confused by seeing them meet again in the other episode? LOL. :D

Jan July 17th 07 22:14

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 303370)
Did you check the Ruling from the Tomb scripts? Did they always contain the intro we saw onscreen?

Mac,

Okay, I'm home now and checked the 'Ruling from the Tomb' scripts. I've got the First Draft (11/20/98) and the shooting script-Final Draft thrhough Pink Revisions (12/1/98, 12/2/98 & 12/4/98) and both have Gideon and Lochley introducing themselves when Gideon comes up to Lochley as she's 'discussing' security arrangements with Lt. Carr.

Jan

KoshN July 18th 07 03:52

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sindatur (Post 303437)
While that's certainly true, and I may be remembering wrong, I'm remembering this episode was aired first, (before knowing all this stuff of the Conspiracy to commit crib murder on Crusade) and then I was confused by seeing them meet again in the other episode? LOL. :D

A Twilight Zone moment.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 303455)
Mac,

Okay, I'm home now and checked the 'Ruling from the Tomb' scripts. I've got the First Draft (11/20/98) and the shooting script-Final Draft thrhough Pink Revisions (12/1/98, 12/2/98 & 12/4/98) and both have Gideon and Lochley introducing themselves when Gideon comes up to Lochley as she's 'discussing' security arrangements with Lt. Carr.

Jan

Thanks.

So, I guess that would mean that the looped line was added to Each Night I Dream of Home before any version of the Ruling from the Tomb script was written.

RMcD July 18th 07 08:34

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 303483)
Thanks.

So, I guess that would mean that the looped line was added to Each Night I Dream of Home before any version of the Ruling from the Tomb script was written.

Well, all the black suit episodes were done after the production hiatus, so they would have recognised that because of War Zone they would need a block to come before the grey suit episodes. That would have meant that the first appearance of Lochley in this new block would have to be written as her first introduction by default.

JMS says on one of the commentary tracks that there was some kind of battle with TNT to persuade them to finish post on the grey suit episodes at all, so they couldn't necessarily assume the introduction they had already filmed for Lochley in Each Night I Dream of Home would ever be seen. The loop would have been added whenever they got round to finishing post on that episode, which for all we know may actually have been after Ruling from the Tomb was finished.

I wonder which, if any of the eight black-suit episodes filmed might have ended up being placed after the 'laundry accident' episode if that had been filmed..

GaribaldisHair July 18th 07 08:44

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
I imagine one looped line of dialogue could pretty much be done any time between the end of filming and sending the finished episode to the network for broadcast.

Once renewal for season 5 on TNT was confirmed they also managed to loop one line of voiceover for Rising Star to explain Ivanova's absence, at some point between that confirmation and broadcast.

It probably happens far more often than we are aware of in many shows.

Jan July 18th 07 10:53

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 303483)
Thanks.

So, I guess that would mean that the looped line was added to Each Night I Dream of Home before any version of the Ruling from the Tomb script was written.

Or at least planned for, yes. We know that the production was put on the longer hiatus around the third week of September and that 'War Zone', the new first episode, was written in the second week of October. I tend to think that it was probably around that time that the uniform change and revised episode order was mandated. The first draft of 'Ruling' was dated 11/20/98 so there was plenty of time for the revised planning to take place.

Jan

RMcD July 18th 07 12:02

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaribaldisHair (Post 303517)
It probably happens far more often than we are aware of in many shows.

There's an example of it in Into the Fire as well. The scene in which Lorien discusses life, the universe and everything with Ivanova in her quarters was originally shot for the Summoning. There's a line addred to Ivanova's narration at the beginning of the episode to explain why they would revisit Babylon 5 after meeting with the final first ones instead of heading straight for the fight. It's not a loop exactly, but it jars a little with the first part of her narration, it sounds like it was recorded in a different studio.

KoshN July 18th 07 21:07

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RMcD (Post 303515)
JMS says on one of the commentary tracks that there was some kind of battle with TNT to persuade them to finish post on the grey suit episodes at all, so they couldn't necessarily assume the introduction they had already filmed for Lochley in Each Night I Dream of Home would ever be seen. The loop would have been added whenever they got round to finishing post on that episode, which for all we know may actually have been after Ruling from the Tomb was finished.

I know this isn't really about the point we're discussing here, but IIRC, I don't think JMS ever said that in any commentary track we got on any of the DVDs. He's said it online in his posts, but not on the DVDs. That's part of the commentary he wanted to put on the Crusade DVDs, and Warner Brothers agreed to it, but then Warners edited it out.

RMcD July 19th 07 09:06

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 303566)
I know this isn't really about the point we're discussing here, but IIRC, I don't think JMS ever said that in any commentary track we got on any of the DVDs. He's said it online in his posts, but not on the DVDs. That's part of the commentary he wanted to put on the Crusade DVDs, and Warner Brothers agreed to it, but then Warners edited it out.

I may be misremembering then..

Lennier's Tears May 28th 15 02:38

Re: EpDis: Crusade: Ruling From The Tomb
 
This one was a little weird ... I was pleased to finally see Lochley actually appear on the show, after seeing her in the opening credits for the past 6 or so episodes (I'm watching in DVD order). But, the story was a ... weird. It was also weirding me out how suddenly everyone was either flirting or hitting on someone. Something in the air on Mars? ALSO weird is how in this episode and some others, the main characters feel the need to explain the story that we JUST watched to the viewer ... But I'm gathering from comments in these threads that perhaps that was something the studio required?


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