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-   -   Shadows, Vorlons, and... math? (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=45979)

NorrinRadd July 30th 20 16:36

Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?
 
In "Interludes and Examinations," the two (or so) Shadows that always accompanied Morden were able to assassinate Kosh.

In "Into the Fire," two Centauri guards are able to kill Morden's two Shadow guardians by shooting them with what appeared to be PPG rifles.

In "Falling Toward Apotheosis," a small cadre of B5 security personnel fire PPGs at Ulkesh with no effect at all. Later, a much larger group fire PPG rifles at him, AND he is hit by massive electrical discharges from the station's power grid. This only manages to break his encounter suit's headpiece and piss him off.

So...

2 Shadows > 1 Vorlon

2 PPG rifles > 2 Shadows

1 Vorlon > multiple PPG rifles and more

The math doesn't work out. It's worse than Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock.

Springer July 30th 20 17:20

Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?
 
Presumably the Shadows had knowledge about how to hurt Kosh (we didn't see how the Shadows killed Kosh, but they don't seem to carry guns so they must have some other method). They also managed to damage his suit in Signs and Portents. I also always felt that to some extent Kosh submitted to his execution, because they were the rules that the Vorlons and Shadows agreed to play by.

But the Vorlons certainly seem stronger than the Shadows – at least while they are inside their encounter suits, which may have extra shielding. The Shadows are 'naked' in comparison. Sheridan was able to, if not kill one, hold his own against one of the Shadows with his little PPG on Z'Ha'Dum.

Then again, a little poison almost killed Kosh. I guess they had different strengths and weaknesses.

Looney July 30th 20 21:03

Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?
 
WELCOME NORRINRADD!!!!!

I hate to say this without going back and watching the scene, but I feel like it was more than just Morden's two guards. I'm sure I am wrong, but it seems like I remember a hint that there were more than just the two.

But points to NorrinRadd for giving my brain a workout... ;)

(And can we all agree that the words math, spelling, and science should never be used around me. :wtf: :lol:

NorrinRadd July 31st 20 07:36

Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Looney (Post 463446)
WELCOME NORRINRADD!!!!!

I hate to say this without going back and watching the scene, but I feel like it was more than just Morden's two guards. I'm sure I am wrong, but it seems like I remember a hint that there were more than just the two.

But points to NorrinRadd for giving my brain a workout... ;)

(And can we all agree that the words math, spelling, and science should never be used around me. :wtf: :lol:

I just re-watched the 3-minute clip on YouTube. It's not clear, because of the way the Shadows usually shimmer and cloak themselves. It appears to be 2, maybe 3.

I haven't been able to find a clip of the scene where Ulkesh scans the room where Kosh died. There are scorched images on the wall. It's very brief, so I'm not sure it would be possible to get a good count even if I found the clip.

NorrinRadd July 31st 20 07:58

Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 463445)
Presumably the Shadows had knowledge about how to hurt Kosh (we didn't see how the Shadows killed Kosh, but they don't seem to carry guns so they must have some other method).

In "Walkabout," Lyta accidentally makes brief contact with the part of Kosh still living in Sheridan and discovers that the Shadows "tore him apart."

Quote:

They also managed to damage his suit in Signs and Portents. I also always felt that to some extent Kosh submitted to his execution, because they were the rules that the Vorlons and Shadows agreed to play by.
It's weird. He knew it was coming, which was why he was reluctant to do as Sheridan requested. But there was no reason he could not have safely left the station on his ship and escaped or delayed his fate, unless he figured they would then target Sheridan or something. But I believe I recall JMS long ago saying that he put up a good fight.

Quote:

But the Vorlons certainly seem stronger than the Shadows at least while they are inside their encounter suits, which may have extra shielding. The Shadows are 'naked' in comparison. Sheridan was able to, if not kill one, hold his own against one of the Shadows with his little PPG on Z'Ha'Dum.
Even though the Shadows are older, it does seem like the Vorlons have (slightly) better tech. But even without their suits, they seem to be crazy powerful. In Falling Toward Apotheosis, Lorien says, "[FONT=Arial]The Shadows were able to kill Kosh because they are alike. Both First Ones. For you this will be much more difficult. You've never seen a Vorlon enraged. They are more powerful than you can imagine."

But that just makes it more confusing. Like you said, Sheridan's little PPG pistol was at least somewhat effective, and the Centauri PPG rifles were deadly, even though the Shadows were First Ones. Even out of his encounter suit, the PPGs had no effect against Ulkesh.
[/FONT]

Quote:

Then again, a little poison almost killed Kosh. I guess they had different strengths and weaknesses.
Yeah. That's a whole other can of spoo. Apparently 1000 years in the past, Valen didn't warn Kosh to not shake "his" had on arrival at B5.

Springer July 31st 20 08:04

Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?
 
I've just re-watched the scene in Interludes... , and we see three Shadows materialise in Kosh's quarters. There are two Shadow images, as well as Morden himself, on the wall in Walkabout. According to JMS on the Lurker's Guide, Kosh didn't take any of the Shadows down with him. JMS also describes their fight as being "on another whole plane", whatever that means, and that Kosh allowed himself to be targeted because if it wasn't going to be him, it would be someone else instead – and Vorlons don't run, according to JMS! He draws a comparison with the thematic narrative in Passing Through Gethsemane – Kosh was going to stay and face what was coming.

And yes, welcome NorrinRadd!

Looney August 3rd 20 21:25

Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?
 
Did we lose a conversation? I am getting to old for this. Swear I responded to a conversation yesterday that I don't see today. :wtf: :eek: :wtf: :rolleyes:

Kraig August 4th 20 05:09

Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 463451)
I've just re-watched the scene in Interludes... , and we see three Shadows materialise in Kosh's quarters. There are two Shadow images, as well as Morden himself, on the wall in Walkabout. According to JMS on the Lurker's Guide, Kosh didn't take any of the Shadows down with him. JMS also describes their fight as being "on another whole plane", whatever that means, and that Kosh allowed himself to be targeted because if it wasn't going to be him, it would be someone else instead – and Vorlons don't run, according to JMS! He draws a comparison with the thematic narrative in Passing Through Gethsemane – Kosh was going to stay and face what was coming.

And yes, welcome NorrinRadd!

Kosh had an exit plan, he left his encounter suit so a piece of his mind could go to Sheridan. That way he was able to go to Z'ha'dum with Sheridan. But Kosh being out of his encounter suit left him vunerable to the Shadow attack. I think that was Kosh's strategy, and he was willing to pay the price in order to be with Sheridan at Z'ha'dum.

Looney August 10th 20 15:27

Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?
 
I often think about how things would be different if the show were made today. What are some opinions here ......

Who thinks there would be pressure to show the scene in its entirety?

Who thinks it would just be allowed to play out as it originally did?

I think in this world of CGI there would be a strong push to show the battle. I have no clue where JMS would fall in the debate because I don't know if his decision to not show exactly what happened was based on creative license or budgetary restraint.

Jan August 11th 20 22:56

Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Looney (Post 463464)
I often think about how things would be different if the show were made today. What are some opinions here ......

Who thinks there would be pressure to show the scene in its entirety?

Who thinks it would just be allowed to play out as it originally did?

I think in this world of CGI there would be a strong push to show the battle. I have no clue where JMS would fall in the debate because I don't know if his decision to not show exactly what happened was based on creative license or budgetary restraint.

JMS has said in the past that often *not* showing something makes it even more effective since our brains fill in the gaps. I guess the question would be whether it would serve the story in some way to show it? I'm not able to think of much use for showing it.


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