B5TV.COM

B5TV.COM (http://www.b5tv.com/index.php)
-   B5.world (http://www.b5tv.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
-   -   Completed The Series (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=10400)

garak0410 September 30th 07 12:01

Completed The Series
 
Well, my wife and I completed the series. She was just crying and crying over the final series episode and I was moved by it.

SPOILER -

The sadness of Delenn, the empty Zocalo, the destruction of the station...it was all sad and moving. And when Sheridan passed, it was also very affecting.

We should have watched the last two movies first but we will next time we watch the series.

We also watched THE LOST TALES. It was better than expected...I didn't have a problem with the stories. Just the feeling that Babylon 5 was empty. That was the worst part...the effects were awesome and I was drawn into the stories but to see only hallways and the landing pad in B5, I never really felt like I was there. Maybe the budget will increase for the next one.

B5_Obsessed September 30th 07 19:10

Re: Completed The Series
 
Hell of ending, wasn't it? My wife was crying. I had a big, oblong lump in my throat more than once. It was shockingly sad and beautiful at the same time. We had been waiting 5 years for the end of the story and it did not disappoint.

Mutai Sho-Rin September 30th 07 22:48

Re: Completed The Series
 
Very interesting. I just started my fourth pass through the series this week. I saw it all the way through on the original broadcasts. Watched and taped it on a re-broadcast but was probably paying too much attention to the taping. Viewed the tapes from beginning to end about three years ago and am now watching the DVDs on a big screen HDTV. Since I am simply free to watch without worrying about the taping or trying to fast-forward through commercials, I am enjoying it a lot more, seeing and hearing subtleties never before discovered. I'm only 4 episodes into season 1; a long journey to follow.

garak0410 October 1st 07 17:33

Re: Completed The Series
 
OK...I admit...I shed one tear...it was moving...more moving that Deep Space Nine's ending, which got me as well.

Boxie October 2nd 07 00:25

Re: Completed The Series
 
I watched it again the other night. I honestly thought I was okay and was going to get through it without crying for the first time... :Dbut it just didn't happen!!

Deleted October 2nd 07 03:31

Re: Completed The Series
 
The tears ran like a river the first time I watched the end...and I still get a tear or two no matter how many times I see it...

hypatia October 2nd 07 03:44

Re: Completed The Series
 
It really was a sentimental moment. On several levels. Yea, it's very well done. I've never been able to see it without tearing up. :)

And it's one episode I've never heard a fan claim wasn't exciting enough. :D

It was a wonderful end to a truly unique series.

RW7427 October 2nd 07 15:54

Re: Completed The Series
 
I used to cry every time I watched Sleeping in Light but after seeing it more times than I could count, I just got goosebumps. :lol:

Galahad October 2nd 07 16:10

Re: Completed The Series
 
There's something tantric about it... you try to hold back your emoition as the station gradually goes up... but when the obs dome goes up with the extra bang... thats it, it becomes an entire level harder to resist shedding a tear... or getting goosepbumps.

I believe that extra bang is deliberate and is designed to encourage the emotional response.

mattikake October 15th 07 12:51

Re: Completed The Series
 
I must be more emotionally detached that you lot. I didn't even come close to crying and too busy enjoying it. Sad more because it was the end of the whole story. :s

I was too busy counter-analysing what Sheridan had become - one interpretation that tracks is being slowly transformed by Lorien into that same sort of first-one being as him. Sheridan's 'prize' for seeing the big picture. Why else would Lorien come back? Why else would there be no physical body left behind? Then wondering if there is any B5-universe physics connection between him and what also happened to Ironheart.

So he didn't die at all, he's just went to a better place... if you want it that way. ;)

One of the annoying inconsistencies of B5 was that some characters always tell truth, others always lie and others keep changing their minds. It's difficult to know when JMS is trying to tell you about the intricacies of the B5 universe, or wether it's characterised spin. Clearly by this ending Lorien was lying when told Sheridan and Delenn that he would simply 'stop', as that was a definite transformation into something more or into nothingness.

Jan October 15th 07 13:43

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mattikake (Post 310922)
Clearly by this ending Lorien was lying when told Sheridan and Delenn that he would simply 'stop', as that was a definite transformation into something more or into nothingness.

How was Lorien lying? At the time he told Delenn that Sheridan would simply stop, the events at Coriana 6 hadn't happened so Lorien had no idea that he and the rest of the First Ones would be going 'beyond the rim.' Until that happened, there was no chance of coming back for Sheridan. How could he be lying about something he couldn't have known.

Jan

babylon1122 October 15th 07 14:04

Re: Completed The Series
 
Sorry Jan, IMHO I think that Lorien knew exactly what was going to happen. He was the First One after all. Would he not be able to see the future?

Joan

mattikake October 15th 07 14:10

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 310924)
How was Lorien lying? At the time he told Delenn that Sheridan would simply stop, the events at Coriana 6 hadn't happened so Lorien had no idea that he and the rest of the First Ones would be going 'beyond the rim.' Until that happened, there was no chance of coming back for Sheridan. How could he be lying about something he couldn't have known.

Jan

I don't see the relevance. If Lorien had 'seeded' Sheridan then wouldn't he have transformed regardless of the outcome of the final battle - whether the first ones went beyond the rim or not? The only difference is that Lorien had to come back for him, than hang around for 20 years waiting for Sheridan's metamorphosis to happen.

Jan October 15th 07 14:22

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by babylon1122 (Post 310925)
Sorry Jan, IMHO I think that Lorien knew exactly what was going to happen. He was the First One after all. Would he not be able to see the future?

I don't recall that we'd ever seen any indication that the First Ones could see the future. In fact, wasn't Kosh surprised to see Sinclair on B5 and recognize him as Valen (in the special edition of The Gathering)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattikake (Post 310926)
I don't see the relevance. If Lorien had 'seeded' Sheridan then wouldn't he have transformed regardless of the outcome of the final battle - whether the first ones went beyond the rim or not? The only difference is that Lorien had to come back for him, than hang around for 20 years waiting for Sheridan's metamorphosis to happen.

I don't know what 'seeded' means in this context, I'm afraid. It sounds like you're talking about the changes in Sheridan's biology that Lorien made at Z'ha'dum? If that were so, wouldn't Sheridan have transformed right after the fight with Kosh2?

Jan

mattikake October 15th 07 16:01

Re: Completed The Series
 
lol I dunno. I kinda mean seeded in a new lifeform kinda way... could be sexual. Who knows what first one sex is like? ;) heh, Sheridan was talked into bed by a first one... Errrr! :D

Seriously, yeah changes to Sheridan's 'form'. Why should he have changed right after the fight with Kosh2? Are you thinking of the 'booster' Lorien gave him afterwards, so that he would become more 'pure' Lorien first-one and then transform at that moment? To me it was just a booster - a load of Lorien energy and Kosh1 energy and perhaps even some of Sheridan's own 'spiritual' energy made up the entity that fought Kosh2, so Lorien had to replenish the lost energies to keep Sheridan alive.

The only thing you know for certain is that Sheridan changed [into something non-human] at the end of Sleeping in Light. What I'm suggesting is that the 20 years, was just the jestation period for his eventual 'coming into bloom' moment and his transformation into an energy being like Lorien/Volons/Ironheart/1 million years+ humans etc. Lorien knew exactly what was going to happen to Sheridan from the start of his interference, which is why Lorien came back for him 20 years later... also by this time Sheridan had become wise to this, just as he had with the working out what the Shadow war was really all about - he knew, it was just a matter if he knew that he knew and he certainly didn't let on to anyone else. Is this why he took the trip out to nowhere in a White Star?

It would've been much easier for everyone to accept if they just thought he was going to die.

This is why I like to think that the Lorien-Sheridan conversation about tick and tock, life and death, was just a test of his worthyness, as an aside or side-effect to the main reason for Lorien to keep him alive.

I think too deep about this stuff, which is one of the many reason's why I love B5! A story that allows personal interpretations to out-live it's story telling.

vacantlook October 15th 07 16:19

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mattikake (Post 310943)
The only thing you know for certain is that Sheridan changed [into something non-human] at the end of Sleeping in Light....

I don't think we can say that; we don't see the ending of what happens to Sheridan on the White Star in SiL. We see from outside the ship the inner cabin glowing bright and the light dissipating and are told by Ivanova that no body was ever found. That doesn't mean Sheridan became some body-less being; it's a possibility, but we don't *know* that it happened. The light could have been little more than the entropy of the energy Lorien previously used to keep Sheridan's body alive, and afterward Lorien himself transported Sheridan's lifeless body to a grave of some sort.

Quote:

Is this why he took the trip out to nowhere in a White Star?
He didn't go out to nowhere; he went where Kosh (through Zoe, through Lochley) told him to go.

mattikake October 15th 07 18:19

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 310944)
I don't think we can say that; we don't see the ending of what happens to Sheridan on the White Star in SiL. We see from outside the ship the inner cabin glowing bright and the light dissipating and are told by Ivanova that no body was ever found. That doesn't mean Sheridan became some body-less being; it's a possibility, but we don't *know* that it happened. The light could have been little more than the entropy of the energy Lorien previously used to keep Sheridan's body alive, and afterward Lorien himself transported Sheridan's lifeless body to a grave of some sort.

The implication is there. When humans 'expire' they leave behind a dead body. There was no body, ergo he wasn't human at the time of his expiration... Even if something is atomised or completely converted to energy, there is still a large amount of residual radiation left behind (quite a lot actually if Sheridan was 100% converted to energy in about a second), so the news reel wouldn't have said that there was no trace [at all]. If would've been something like 'President Sheridan exploded in a massive matter to energy conversion of several billion kilo-jules', which of course wouldn't have left much of the White Star either.

Anyway, while Lorien taking Sheridan's body is actually plausible, there is no hint to this in the writing, unlike the flash of light in a conversion to something unexplainable. JMS leaving it open-ended you feel is half the point I suppose. But yeah I guess it could be the remnants of Loriens energies. But if that was the case, why is Sheridan pleased to see Lorien return for him? What would be the point for the last few seconds of his life? There would have to be an afterlife of which there is also no official implication of this in the B5 universe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 310944)
He didn't go out to nowhere; he went where Kosh (through Zoe, through Lochley) told him to go.

Well I meant the 'middle of nowhere' as in immediately unreachable by other mortal B5 characters, not 'somewhere' in a B5 story-arc sense. Why be told to go to a certain place if only to meet a Lorien again for a few seconds, prearranged?

At this point, if the possibility of Sheridan's passing to another non-death form is not accepted it gets pedantic and undiscussable (at least humour me with some of it).

So is the general consensus that he did die in a flash of light, that Lorien returned all the way from the rim to say 'hi' then 'bye'?

Jan October 15th 07 19:18

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 310944)
I don't think we can say that; we don't see the ending of what happens to Sheridan on the White Star in SiL. We see from outside the ship the inner cabin glowing bright and the light dissipating and are told by Ivanova that no body was ever found. That doesn't mean Sheridan became some body-less being; it's a possibility, but we don't *know* that it happened. The light could have been little more than the entropy of the energy Lorien previously used to keep Sheridan's body alive, and afterward Lorien himself transported Sheridan's lifeless body to a grave of some sort.

I agree. I've always assumed that Sheridan was actually taken elsewhere in order to enhance the myth, like he said to Delenn. Now, whether he died or not, that's left somewhat open. I like to think that Lorien was able to sustain him for long enough to see 'beyond the rim' but I do think that Lorien was telling the truth that he wouldn't be able to give Sheridan life energy for a third time that would last any length of time.

Jan

mattikake October 15th 07 20:44

Re: Completed The Series
 
So the change in Sheridan's attitude to the universe - the whole Shadow war, his willingness to sacrifice people for the cause*, treating other races (such as the league) as civilisationally inferior etc. in general more daring and even less willing to 'take no sh!t' and seeing the big picture far more clearly - would you say is purely a philosphical change in knowledge of what the shadow war is about (essentially a petty BS squabble), or a physiological change by Lorien's 'energies'? As was pointed out by Garibaldi (arguably a story-arc reason for his abduction by Bester).

* as a military leader he probably does this anyway, but there is no evidence of it, possibly implying that this is a deliberately detailed change.

Jan October 15th 07 20:51

Re: Completed The Series
 
No, I don't think Lorien's contribution of life energy made any change in Sheridan. That said, I do think that Sheridan's experiences on Z'ha'dum *did* change him, but that was due to having died/returned, not due to Lorien. After talking to Justin and jumping into the pit, he knew that he was a 'nexus' and that he really could have a major effect on the universe. From that stems the new determination and willingness to do whatever it would take to achieve his objective.

Jan

Jade Jaguar October 16th 07 00:28

Re: Completed The Series
 
I have always believed that when Lorien said Sheridan would "just stop," he meant his physical body, and this was not a comment on what would become of his spirit/soul/essence.

From when first I saw it, I have believed that when the "glow" took place, Lorien took Sheridan, and his essence/life force into himself, where he could sustain Sheridan, although not in physical form, for as long as he, Lorien, remained alive. I assumed Lorien then returned to "beyond the rim."

I think that is the most likely and plausible explanation, but I realize that'as just my opinion, and other interpretations may be equally valid.

jnk5y October 17th 07 05:01

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade Jaguar (Post 310978)
I have always believed that when Lorien said Sheridan would "just stop," he meant his physical body, and this was not a comment on what would become of his spirit/soul/essence.

From when first I saw it, I have believed that when the "glow" took place, Lorien took Sheridan, and his essence/life force into himself, where he could sustain Sheridan, although not in physical form, for as long as he, Lorien, remained alive. I assumed Lorien then returned to "beyond the rim."

I think that is the most likely and plausible explanation, but I realize that'as just my opinion, and other interpretations may be equally valid.

That's an interesting thought JJ. Similar to the Soul Hunters and their collections, Lorien could be taking Sheridan's "soul" with him. Lorien probably wants someone a little more interesting to talk to while traveling past the rim. I'm sure Vorlons and Shadows are horrible conversationalists. If Soul Hunters can do it why can't The First One.

Jade Jaguar October 17th 07 08:11

Re: Completed The Series
 
Well, some similarity, perhaps. But, I don't imagine Lorien was "collecting" Sheridan, more that he was keeping a good friend very close... :D

mattikake October 17th 07 11:53

Re: Completed The Series
 
So you say Sheridan was 'absorbed' into a larger entity? That's perverse! :D

Even worse when Sheridan was clearly prepared and knew of this fate. Maybe he was more Lorien than Sheridan when he 'died' in SiL anyway? But while entities can join in B5 they don't merge as one, they keep their individuality - like when the Vorlons join with someone.

I prefer the evolved idea. At least you know in the B5-universe it is possible after what happened to Ironheart.

RW7427 October 17th 07 15:28

Re: Completed The Series
 
Sheridan...Ironheart part 2?

Jade Jaguar October 18th 07 05:10

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mattikake (Post 311188)
So you say Sheridan was 'absorbed' into a larger entity? That's perverse! :D

Even worse when Sheridan was clearly prepared and knew of this fate. Maybe he was more Lorien than Sheridan when he 'died' in SiL anyway? But while entities can join in B5 they don't merge as one, they keep their individuality - like when the Vorlons join with someone.

Actually, I didn't mean that Sheridan was absorbed in the sense that he no longer existed as an individual consciousness. I did mean precisely that he kept his individuality, just like when a Vorlon joins with someone. I see that as the only way Lorien could preserve him. The only other alternative I see is that Lorien was able to push Sheridan's evolution to the point where he gained first one status, rather than dying. But, I think that less plausible.

mattikake October 18th 07 12:01

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade Jaguar (Post 311250)
The only other alternative I see is that Lorien was able to push Sheridan's evolution to the point where he gained first one status, rather than dying. But, I think that less plausible.

That's exactly what I'm saying happened and I also say it is plausible to accelerate evolution this way in the B5 universe, as this is what happened to Ironheart.

Afterall he was worthy of first one status, given that he was able to teach the Shadows and Vorlons a thing or two about the big picture, and then lead the rest of the galaxy in a way the Shadows and Vorlons were apparently incapable... I think all Lorien and Kosh did was make Sheridan aware that he had what it takes, as he always had it yet most was just instinct or common sense to Sheridan, than conscious awareness.

As an aside, anyone know why Kosh took an immediate interest in Sheridan in series 2? Or was he just putting it altogether after immediately realising who Sinclair was? I.e. If Sinclair is Valen, then Sheridan must be the other third of 'the one' given his current position, or was there some other greater knowledge to it?

Jade Jaguar October 20th 07 05:28

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mattikake (Post 311256)
As an aside, anyone know why Kosh took an immediate interest in Sheridan in series 2?

Well,... because Sheridan was the first one to 'drop in' on him, for many millennia...

Kaz October 27th 07 21:23

Re: Completed The Series
 
I'm new to this site but I've only recently 'discovered' Babylon 5, via my dad's collection hidden away on a shelf.
I've just finished watching 'Sleeping in the Light' and........wow is the only word that comes to mind. It was fitting, somber, yet......somehow it was also striking all at once.

Jade Jaguar October 28th 07 01:10

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade Jaguar (Post 311373)
Well,... because Sheridan was the first one to 'drop in' on him, for many millennia...

Hmmm... where was my head at here... clearly "Kosh" was written, but I responded thinking Lorien. I have no explanation, just apology...

Telepath October 28th 07 11:51

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

as an aside, anyone know why Kosh took an immediate interest in Sheridan in series 2?
Well, he was the new commander of B5... and a third of the One mentioned in Minbari prophecy. That's also why Kosh goes out of his way to save Sheridan's life in the S2 finale.

But: I agree that it's a bit awkward. I always wondered when the prophecy concerning the One who is three was made. If Valen is its source, it's strange because he cannot know that Sheridan is the One who will be - he returns to the past before even Delenn becomes Entil'Zha. I've also always nitpicked the fact that while Valen is the One who was (1000 years in the past), the two other Ones are actually making crucial decisions that justify that honorific title at the same time, and the One who will be just takes over the title after everything is done. I've never liked the One who is three very much.

Galahad October 29th 07 10:46

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mattikake (Post 311256)
As an aside, anyone know why Kosh took an immediate interest in Sheridan in series 2? Or was he just putting it altogether after immediately realising who Sinclair was? I.e. If Sinclair is Valen, then Sheridan must be the other third of 'the one' given his current position, or was there some other greater knowledge to it?

Sinclair may have told him all about Sheridan 1,000 years ago.

Heaven knows he left enough notes lying around for other people... and the vorlons reaction to Sinclair's attempt to leak information that would prevent the Earth Minbari War in "In Valen's Name"... would suggest that they were aware either through telepathic examination, or Kosh breaking a piece off of himself, or through briefings with Sinclair... about what would happen in the future.

I'm going with Kosh floating around inside Sinclair and touching hios mind, it makes sense... and having seen sinclair's memories... he would recognise Sheridan from them. It also helps explain Kosh's foreknowledge of his own death. As he dies just prior to WWE

Elipsis October 30th 07 19:08

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Galahad (Post 311753)

I'm going with Kosh floating around inside Sinclair and touching hios mind, it makes sense... and having seen sinclair's memories... he would recognise Sheridan from them. It also helps explain Kosh's foreknowledge of his own death. As he dies just prior to WWE


Holy shit. That's heavy. Makes perfect sense too.

mattikake October 30th 07 21:11

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Galahad (Post 311753)
Sinclair may have told him all about Sheridan 1,000 years ago.

Heaven knows he left enough notes lying around for other people... and the vorlons reaction to Sinclair's attempt to leak information that would prevent the Earth Minbari War in "In Valen's Name"... would suggest that they were aware either through telepathic examination, or Kosh breaking a piece off of himself, or through briefings with Sinclair... about what would happen in the future.

I'm going with Kosh floating around inside Sinclair and touching hios mind, it makes sense... and having seen sinclair's memories... he would recognise Sheridan from them. It also helps explain Kosh's foreknowledge of his own death. As he dies just prior to WWE

There's also Zathras who we know told Sinclair that Sheridan was the one who will be just before he went back into the past...

What if Kosh had simply met Valen before? Valen knew the Vorlons well. Afterall Kosh was obviously very old and old enough to have met Lorien presumably at Z'Ha'Dum during an inter-war period.

There are plenty of opportunities for Kosh to know a lot about Sheridan from Valen I guess.

btw, having now just watched all of series 5 for only the 2nd time, I'm going to go back on my whole 'Sheridan evolved' to 'Sheridan was collected [by Lorien]' at the end of SiL. In the audio commentary JMS points out that Valen disappeared without a trace too - something I forgot - and it's from what JMS has told us, it's pretty clear Valen didn't meet Lorien or his kind - saying he did would be speculation at best. JMS also makes it clear that Valen would return and so perhaps Sheridan one day, and of course, you can't be dead if that is so! So I kinda agree with Jade Jaguar that Lorien came back to collect Sheridan, but in what way is more interesting. Absorbed? Looked-after in some way? Seems to hint very much that Lorien is [a form of] god, as much as an atheist could.

Jade Jaguar October 31st 07 01:07

Re: Completed The Series
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mattikake (Post 311857)
Afterall Kosh was obviously very old and old enough to have met Lorien presumably at Z'Ha'Dum during an inter-war period.

Or perhaps in a pre-war period, when the Vorlons and the Shadows were not yet antagonistic, or as competitive.


Quote:

So I kinda agree with Jade Jaguar that Lorien came back to collect Sheridan, but in what way is more interesting. Absorbed? Looked-after in some way?
IMO, Lorien provided the energy for Sheridan's separate consciousness to continue to exist, within Lorien, and without the body neither could sustain any longer. You might say Lorien allowed Sheridan to leech off of him... :D So, not really absorbed, which implies a loss of individuality.


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:34.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2018 B5TV.COM