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b5historyman May 8th 17 09:16

JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
This is the real approved chronological viewing order of the B5 canon, from the In House reference The Babylon 5 Historical Database, researched and compiled by Terry Jones with the full input, cooperation and authorisation of J.Michael Straczynski.

News board posting on 19th May 2000:
"Because episodes were often aired out of order, you have to look at what's *inside* the episode when determining the chronology rather than when PTEN decided to air an episode.
jms"

SEASON 1 2258
Midnight on the Firing Line. February 2258.
Soul Hunter. Wednesday 2nd March – Thursday 3rd March 2258.
Infection. Tuesday March 8th- Wednesday March 9th 2258.
Born to the Purple. Tuesday March 22nd – Friday March 25th 2258.
The Parliament of Dreams. Wednesday March 30th – Sunday April 3rd 2258.
The War Prayer. Sunday April 3rd – Thursday April 7th 2258.
And the Sky Full of Stars. Monday April 11th – Wednesday April 13th 2258.
Mind War. Sunday April 24th – Tuesday April 26th 2258.
By Any Means Necessary. May 2258.
Death Walker. May 2258.
Believers. June 2258.
Survivors. June 2258.
A Voice In the Wilderness Pts1 & 2. June 2258. See note below.
Babylon Squared. Tuesday July 12th 2258 - Wednesday July 13th 2258
Legacies. July 2258. See note below.
Grail. July 2258. See note below
NOTE: Babylon Squared, Legacies and Grail are placed before Signs and Portents and ordered on the basis of Delenn receiving the Triluminary and beginning construction on the Chrysalis device (shown at different stages of construction throughout).
Signs and Portents. Wednesday August 3rd – Friday August 5th 2258.
TKO. August 2258.
EYES. September 2258.
The Quality of Mercy. September 2258.
Chrysalis. Friday December 30th 2258 – Sunday January 1st 2259.

SEASON 2 2259
Points of Departure. Sunday January 8th 2259.
Revelations. Thursday January 12th - Thursday January 19th 2259.
The Geometry of Shadows. Wednesday January 25th - Sunday February 5th 2259.
A Distant Star. Monday January 30th -Thursday February 2nd 2259.
A Spider in the Web. March 2259.
A Race Through Dark Places. Tuesday March 14th – Friday March 17th 2259.
Soul Mates. May 2259.
The Long Dark. June 2259.
The Coming of Shadows. Tuesday June 13th - Saturday June 17th. 2259
GROPOS. Tuesday June 20th - Friday June 23rd 2259
All Alone in the Night. July 2259.
Acts of Sacrifice. July 2259.
Hunter, Prey. July 2259.
Knives. August 2259.
There All the Honour Lies. August 2259.
And Now for a Word “36 Hours aboard Babylon 5” Saturday September 16th 2259.
In the Shadow of Z’ha’dum. Sunday September 24th 2259.
Confessions and Lamentations. November 2259.
Divided Loyalties. November 2259 - Saturday December 2nd 2259
The Long Twilight Struggle. Sunday December 3rd – Sunday December 10th 2259.
The Fall of Night. Monday December 18th 2259. (Start of story)
Comes the Inquisitor. Tuesday December 19th – Wednesday December 20th 2259.
The Fall of Night. Sunday December 24th 2259 (end of story)

SEASON 3 2260
Matters of Honor. Wednesday December 27th 2259 - Tuesday January 9th 2260.
Convictions. Saturday January 13th - Sunday January 14th 2260.
A Day in the Strife. Monday January 15th - Tuesday January 16th 2260
Passing Through Gethsemane. Thursday January 18th – Sunday February 4th 2260.
Voices of Authority. Monday February 5th – Wednesday February 7th 2260
Dust to Dust. Wednesday February 28th – Friday March 1st 2260
Exogenesis. Sunday March 10th – Wednesday March 13th 2260.
Messages from Earth. Monday March 18th – Monday April 8th 2260.
Point of No Return. Monday April 8th – Wednesday April 10th 2260
Severed Dreams. Sunday April 14th – Monday April 15th
Ceremonies of Light and Dark. Tuesday April 16th - Thursday April 18th 2260
Sic Transit Vir. Sunday June 30th – Friday July 5th 2260
A Late Delivery from Avalon. Thursday July 11th - Friday July 12th 2260
Ship of Tears. Wednesday July 24th 2260
Interludes and Examinations. Saturday August 3rd – Monday August 5th 2260
War without End parts one and two. Friday August 9th – Monday August 12th 2260 (This story takes place over four time periods 2260, 2254, 2258 and 1260)
Walkabout. August 2260.
Grey 17 is Missing. Tuesday November 26th – Sunday November 30th 2260
And The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place. Saturday December 7th – Wednesday December 11th 2260 (Z minus 14 days- Z minus 10 days)
Shadow Dancing. Saturday December 14th – Thursday December 19th 2260 (Z minus 7 days – Z minus 2 days)
Z’ha’dum. Thursday December 19th – Wednesday December 25th 2260 (Z minus 2 days to Z day, Sunday December 21st when Sheridan leaves for Z’ha’dum, A four day jump from B5).

SEASON 4 2261
The Hour of the Wolf. Saturday December 28th 2260 - Monday January 6th 2261.
Whatever Happened To Mr Garibaldi ? Wednesday January 8th - Tuesday January 14th 2261
The Summoning. Saturday January 11th - Saturday January 18th 2261
Falling Toward Apotheosis. Sunday January 19th - Monday January 20th 2261.
The Long Night. Wednesday January 22nd - Friday January 24th 2261.
Into the Fire. Thursday January 23rd - Thursday January 30th 2261.
Epiphanies. Saturday February 1st - Saturday February 15th 2261.
The Illusion of Truth. Thursday April 3rd - Saturday April 12th 2261.
Atonement. Saturday April 26th - Monday May 5th 2261.
Racing Mars. Sunday May 11th - Tuesday May 13th 2261.
Lines of Communication. Tuesday May 13th - Friday May 16th 2261.
Conflicts of Interest. Saturday May 17th - Monday May 19th 2261.
Rumors, Bargains And Lies. Monday May 19th - Wednesday May 21st 2261.
Moments of Transition. Tuesday May 20th - Monday September 1st 2261 (This story takes place over 4 months. The events of “Thirdspace” take place in June 2261 during this story)
No Surrender, No Retreat. Tuesday September 2nd - Thursday September 4th 2261
Exercise of Vital Powers. Saturday September 6th - Monday September 8th 2261.
The Face of the Enemy. Friday October 17th - Wednesday October 22nd 2261.
Intersections In Real Time. Thursday October 23rd - Monday October 27th 2261.
Between the Darkness and the Light. Monday October 27th - Friday October 31st 2261.
Endgame. Saturday November 1st - Tuesday November 4th 2261
Rising Star. Monday November 3rd - Wednesday December 31st 2261.
The Deconstruction Of Falling Stars. Friday January 2nd 2262 – 1,002,262

SEASON 5 2262
No Compromises. Tuesday January 13th - Saturday January 17th 2262.
The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari. Tuesday January 20th - Wednesday January 21st 2262.
The Paragon of Animals. Friday January 30th - Saturday January 31st 2262.
A View from the Gallery. Thursday February 12th - Friday February 13th 2262.
The Day of the Dead. February 2262.
Learning Curve. Sunday May 17th - Friday May 22nd 2262.
Strange Relations. Saturday May 23rd - Sunday May 24th 2262.
Secrets of the Soul. Monday May 25th - Thursday May 28th 2262.
In the Kingdom of the Blind. Wednesday May 27th - Sunday May 31st 2262.
A Tragedy of Telepaths. Tuesday June 16th - Thursday June 18th 2262.
Phoenix Rising. Friday June 19th
The Ragged Edge. Saturday June 20th - Tuesday June 23rd 2262.
The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father. Wednesday June 24th - Monday June 29th 2262.
Meditations on the Abyss. Monday July 13th - Wednesday July 15th 2262.
Darkness Ascending. Thursday July 23rd - Thursday July 30th 2262
And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder. Friday July 31st - Thursday August 6th 2262.
Movement of Fire and Shadow. Sunday August 9th - Friday August 14th 2262.
The Fall of Centauri Prime. Friday August 14th - Tuesday August 18th 2262.
The Wheel of Fire. Wednesday August 19th - Friday August 21st 2262
Objects in Motion. Tuesday September 1st - Saturday September 5th 2262.
Objects at Rest. Sunday September 6th - Friday September 11th 2262
Sleeping In Light. Wednesday December 28th 2280 - Friday January 20th 2281.

THE TV MOVIES
The Gathering Sunday January 3rd - Friday January 8th 2257
Thirdspace June 2261 (The story takes place in the middle of 2261 from on screen narration. This is during the events of Moments of Transition [after Delenn returns to Babylon 5 from Minbar, Franklin is back from Mars and Lyta is not been coerced to rejoin Psi Corps] as this story takes place over four months, from Tuesday May 20th 2261 to Monday September 1st 2261)
River of Souls Tuesday June 8th - Sunday June 13th 2263.
Legend of the Rangers: To Live and Die in Starlight. March 2265.
A Call to Arms Tuesday December 17th - Monday December 30th 2266.
Lost Tales: Voices in the Dark Monday December 24th - Sunday 30th December 2271
In the Beginning (The top and tail sections with Londo are Wednesday December 24th 2278, 2245-2248 for the Earth-Minbari War, 2249 for the destruction of the Babylon Station).

Crusade Season 1 2267.
War Zone 1st Jan - 5th Jan 2267.
The Long Road. 27th Feb - 2nd March 2267.
Appearances and Other Deceits. March 2267
The Memory of War. 30th March - 1st April 2267.
Needs of Earth. April 2267.
Racing the Night. May 2267,
Visitors from Down the Street. 13th May - 14th May 2267
Each Night I Dream of Home. May 2267.
The Path of Sorrows. June 2267.
Ruling from the Tomb. 15th June - 16th June 2267.
Patterns of the Soul. June 2267.
The Well of Forever. July 2267. (Joe confirmed that Mr Jones saying Matheson had sensed the emotions of others, was indeed referring to Durkani and Lyssa from Visitors from Down the Street)
Rules of the Game. July 2267
To The Ends of the Earth 1st September - 3rd September 2267 (Full script but unproduced. Dates from the script)
Value Judgements. September 2267 (Full script but unproduced)
End of the Line. December 2267 (Full script but unproduced)

Arc related canon comics [C] and short stories [SS]
In Darkness Find Me. Friday January 6th -Tuesday January 17th 2259 [C]
Treason. Thursday January 19th - Monday January 23rd 2259 [C]
In Harm’s Way/The Price of Peace. Tuesday January 24th 2259 [C]
Shadows Past and Present. February 2259 [C]
In Valen's Name. Sunday February 2nd - Thursday February 6th 2261 [C]
Hidden Agendas. Wednesday January 21st - Thursday January 22nd 2262 [SS]
The Shadow of his Thoughts. Thursday August 20th - Saturday August 29th 2262 [SS]
Genius Loci. Thursday October 15th - Saturday October 18th 2262 [SS]
The Nautilus Coil. 2265 [SS]
True Seeker. November 2269 [SS]
The Lost Tales. 2271 [C]
Space, Time and the Incurable Romantic. 2560 to 2593. [SS]

Canon novels and their chronological ordering within the Babylon 5 universe
Dark Genesis: The Birth of the Psi Corps. 2115 – 2189
Deadly Relations: Bester Ascendant. 2195 – January 2257 (In 2195, this is where Kevin Vacit disappears. His fate is eventually revealed in The Nautilus Coil. There is a cross over with events portrayed on Mars with the Shadow vessel recovery in 2253 witnessed by Sinclair and Garibaldi in Shadows, Past and Present and Dr Kirkish in Messages from Earth, and events recorded in the novel The Shadow Within on Thursday 19th November 2256 with Anna Sheridan asking Terence Hilliard to scan one of the organic artifacts. Ms Donne reports this to Bester after his assassination of Director Johnson and Donne is ordered on the Icarus mission. There is a discrepancy at the end where it suggests the Ironheart incident on Babylon 5 is concurrent with the loss of the Icarus, the events are actually over a year apart)
Final Reckoning: The Fate of Bester. February 2271 – January 2281
The Passing of the Techno-mages:Casting Shadows. 27th November 2258 – January 3rd 2259.
The Passing of the Techno-mages: Summoning Light. 22nd January – 15th February 2259.
The Passing of the Techno-mages: Invoking Darkness 4th August 2260 – 31st January 2261.
The Legions of Fire stories are replete with dates, however they are about a year out to what is established on screen. The dates presented here have been corrected and match with the established calendar. There is also another error in that Minbari cycles are said to be less than Earth years, they aren’t. A Minbari cycle is the equivalent of 16 Earth months.
Legions of Fire:The Long Night of Centauri Prime. 15th August 2262 – 16th December 2266.
Legions of Fire: Armies of Light and Dark. 21st December 2266 – 2272.
Legions of Fire: Out of the Darkness: 2273 – January 2279
The Shadow Within: 19th November 2256 – 8th January 2257 (The Anna Sheridan/Morden/Z’ha’dum plot line is considered canon by Joe, and is referenced in the outlines for the techno-mage trilogy)
To Dream in the City of Sorrows: 6th December 2260 (framing story is 6 days after Neroon beat Marcus) 9th February – 15th December 2259 (Sinclair’s story line. Some story events are concurrent with The Coming of Shadows and All Alone in the Night)

Looney May 8th 17 14:27

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Can't wait to take this viewing order out for a test drive. LOL :thumbsup:

b5historyman May 10th 17 11:20

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Looney (Post 458111)
Can't wait to take this viewing order out for a test drive. LOL :thumbsup:

This is the result of a lot of research and the Historical Database was a labour of love for me the fact that I was working with Joe and reference editor Fiona Avery on it was a bonus!

Enjoy:thumbsup:

Looney May 12th 17 04:03

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 458169)
Enjoy:thumbsup:

I plan to my friend. I plan to. :thumbsup:

Speaking of chronology I love how your lists reminds us that In The Beginning is meant to be viewed late. Yes the vast majority of the material is a prequel, but it is a story being told by someone late in the overall arc. So despite the fact the majority of the material takes place before The Gathering, important plot points happen in the present of that story in 2278.

b5historyman May 22nd 17 13:43

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Looney (Post 458189)
Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 458169)
Enjoy:thumbsup:

I plan to my friend. I plan to. :thumbsup:

Speaking of chronology I love how your lists reminds us that In The Beginning is meant to be viewed late. Yes the vast majority of the material is a prequel, but it is a story being told by someone late in the overall arc. So despite the fact the majority of the material takes place before The Gathering, important plot points happen in the present of that story in 2278.

If you watch it anywhere else it spoils the "surprise" about Sinclair, unless of course you've watched the series as a whole first.

b5historyman October 27th 17 10:18

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 458106)
This is the real approved chronological viewing order of the B5 canon, from the In House reference The Babylon 5 Historical Database, researched and compiled by Terry Jones with the full input, cooperation and authorisation of J.Michael Straczynski.

News board posting on 19th May 2000:
"Because episodes were often aired out of order, you have to look at what's *inside* the episode when determining the chronology rather than when PTEN decided to air an episode.
jms"

SEASON 1 2258
Midnight on the Firing Line. February 2258.
Soul Hunter. Wednesday 2nd March – Thursday 3rd March 2258.
Infection. Tuesday March 8th- Wednesday March 9th 2258.
Born to the Purple. Tuesday March 22nd – Friday March 25th 2258.
The Parliament of Dreams. Wednesday March 30th – Sunday April 3rd 2258.
The War Prayer. Sunday April 3rd – Thursday April 7th 2258.
And the Sky Full of Stars. Monday April 11th – Wednesday April 13th 2258.
Mind War. Sunday April 24th – Tuesday April 26th 2258.
By Any Means Necessary. May 2258.
Death Walker. May 2258.
Believers. June 2258.
Survivors. June 2258.
A Voice In the Wilderness Pts1 & 2. June 2258. See note below.
Babylon Squared. Tuesday July 12th 2258 - Wednesday July 13th 2258
Legacies. July 2258. See note below.
Grail. July 2258. See note below
NOTE: Babylon Squared, Legacies and Grail are placed before Signs and Portents and ordered on the basis of Delenn receiving the Triluminary and beginning construction on the Chrysalis device (shown at different stages of construction throughout).
Signs and Portents. Wednesday August 3rd – Friday August 5th 2258.
TKO. August 2258.
EYES. September 2258.
The Quality of Mercy. September 2258.
Chrysalis. Friday December 30th 2258 – Sunday January 1st 2259.

SEASON 2 2259
Points of Departure. Sunday January 8th 2259.
Revelations. Thursday January 12th - Thursday January 19th 2259.
The Geometry of Shadows. Wednesday January 25th - Sunday February 5th 2259.
A Distant Star. Monday January 30th -Thursday February 2nd 2259.
A Spider in the Web. March 2259.
A Race Through Dark Places. Tuesday March 14th – Friday March 17th 2259.
Soul Mates. May 2259.
The Long Dark. June 2259.
The Coming of Shadows. Tuesday June 13th - Saturday June 17th. 2259
GROPOS. Tuesday June 20th - Friday June 23rd 2259
All Alone in the Night. July 2259.
Acts of Sacrifice. July 2259.
Hunter, Prey. July 2259.
Knives. August 2259.
There All the Honour Lies. August 2259.
And Now for a Word “36 Hours aboard Babylon 5” Saturday September 16th 2259.
In the Shadow of Z’ha’dum. Sunday September 24th 2259.
Confessions and Lamentations. November 2259.
Divided Loyalties. Friday November 24th 2259 - Saturday December 2nd 2259
The Long Twilight Struggle. Sunday December 3rd – Sunday December 10th 2259.
The Fall of Night. Monday December 18th 2259. (Start of story)
Comes the Inquisitor. Tuesday December 19th – Wednesday December 20th 2259.
The Fall of Night. Sunday December 24th 2259 (end of story)

SEASON 3 2260
Matters of Honor. Wednesday December 27th 2259 - Tuesday January 9th 2260.
Convictions. Saturday January 13th - Sunday January 14th 2260.
A Day in the Strife. Monday January 15th - Tuesday January 16th 2260
Passing Through Gethsemane. Thursday January 18th – Sunday February 4th 2260.
Voices of Authority. Monday February 5th – Wednesday February 7th 2260
Dust to Dust. Wednesday February 28th – Friday March 1st 2260
Exogenesis. Sunday March 10th – Wednesday March 13th 2260.
Messages from Earth. Monday March 18th – Monday April 8th 2260.
Point of No Return. Monday April 8th – Wednesday April 10th 2260
Severed Dreams. Sunday April 14th – Monday April 15th
Ceremonies of Light and Dark. Tuesday April 16th - Thursday April 18th 2260
Sic Transit Vir. Sunday June 30th – Friday July 5th 2260
A Late Delivery from Avalon. Thursday July 11th - Friday July 12th 2260
Ship of Tears. Wednesday July 24th 2260
Interludes and Examinations. Saturday August 3rd – Monday August 5th 2260
War without End parts one and two. Friday August 9th – Monday August 12th 2260 (This story takes place over four time periods 2260, 2254, 2258 and 1260)
Walkabout. August 2260.
Grey 17 is Missing. Tuesday November 26th – Sunday November 30th 2260
And The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place. Saturday December 7th – Wednesday December 11th 2260 (Z minus 14 days- Z minus 10 days)
Shadow Dancing. Saturday December 14th – Thursday December 19th 2260 (Z minus 7 days – Z minus 2 days)
Z’ha’dum. Thursday December 19th – Wednesday December 25th 2260 (Z minus 2 days to Z day, Sunday December 21st when Sheridan leaves for Z’ha’dum, A four day jump from B5).

SEASON 4 2261
The Hour of the Wolf. Saturday December 28th 2260 - Monday January 6th 2261.
Whatever Happened To Mr Garibaldi ? Wednesday January 8th - Tuesday January 14th 2261
The Summoning. Saturday January 11th - Saturday January 18th 2261
Falling Toward Apotheosis. Sunday January 19th - Monday January 20th 2261.
The Long Night. Wednesday January 22nd - Friday January 24th 2261.
Into the Fire. Thursday January 23rd - Thursday January 30th 2261.
Epiphanies. Saturday February 1st - Saturday February 15th 2261.
The Illusion of Truth. Thursday April 3rd - Saturday April 12th 2261.
Atonement. Saturday April 26th - Monday May 5th 2261.
Racing Mars. Sunday May 11th - Tuesday May 13th 2261.
Lines of Communication. Tuesday May 13th - Friday May 16th 2261.
Conflicts of Interest. Saturday May 17th - Monday May 19th 2261.
Rumors, Bargains And Lies. Monday May 19th - Wednesday May 21st 2261.
Moments of Transition. Tuesday May 20th - Monday September 1st 2261 (This story takes place over 4 months. The events of “Thirdspace” take place in June 2261 during this story)
No Surrender, No Retreat. Tuesday September 2nd - Thursday September 4th 2261
Exercise of Vital Powers. Saturday September 6th - Monday September 8th 2261.
The Face of the Enemy. Friday October 17th - Wednesday October 22nd 2261.
Intersections In Real Time. Thursday October 23rd - Monday October 27th 2261.
Between the Darkness and the Light. Monday October 27th - Friday October 31st 2261.
Endgame. Saturday November 1st - Tuesday November 4th 2261
Rising Star. Monday November 3rd - Wednesday December 31st 2261.
The Deconstruction Of Falling Stars. Friday January 2nd 2262 – 1,002,262

SEASON 5 2262
No Compromises. Tuesday January 13th - Saturday January 17th 2262.
The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari. Tuesday January 20th - Wednesday January 21st 2262.
The Paragon of Animals. Friday January 30th - Saturday January 31st 2262.
A View from the Gallery. Thursday February 12th - Friday February 13th 2262.
The Day of the Dead. February 2262.
Learning Curve. Sunday May 17th - Friday May 22nd 2262.
Strange Relations. Saturday May 23rd - Sunday May 24th 2262.
Secrets of the Soul. Monday May 25th - Thursday May 28th 2262.
In the Kingdom of the Blind. Wednesday May 27th - Sunday May 31st 2262.
A Tragedy of Telepaths. Tuesday June 16th - Thursday June 18th 2262.
Phoenix Rising. Friday June 19th
The Ragged Edge. Saturday June 20th - Tuesday June 23rd 2262.
The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father. Wednesday June 24th - Monday June 29th 2262.
Meditations on the Abyss. Monday July 13th - Wednesday July 15th 2262.
Darkness Ascending. Thursday July 23rd - Thursday July 30th 2262
And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder. Friday July 31st - Thursday August 6th 2262.
Movement of Fire and Shadow. Sunday August 9th - Friday August 14th 2262.
The Fall of Centauri Prime. Friday August 14th - Tuesday August 18th 2262.
The Wheel of Fire. Wednesday August 19th - Friday August 21st 2262
Objects in Motion. Tuesday September 1st - Saturday September 5th 2262.
Objects at Rest. Sunday September 6th - Friday September 11th 2262
Sleeping In Light. Wednesday December 28th 2280 - Friday January 20th 2281.

THE TV MOVIES
The Gathering Sunday January 3rd - Friday January 8th 2257
Thirdspace June 2261 (The story takes place in the middle of 2261 from on screen narration. This is during the events of Moments of Transition [after Delenn returns to Babylon 5 from Minbar, Franklin is back from Mars and Lyta is not been coerced to rejoin Psi Corps] as this story takes place over four months, from Tuesday May 20th 2261 to Monday September 1st 2261)
River of Souls Tuesday June 8th - Sunday June 13th 2263.
Legend of the Rangers: To Live and Die in Starlight. March 2265.
A Call to Arms Tuesday December 17th - Monday December 30th 2266.
Lost Tales: Voices in the Dark Monday December 24th - Sunday 30th December 2271
In the Beginning (The top and tail sections with Londo are Wednesday December 24th 2278, 2245-2248 for the Earth-Minbari War, 2249 for the destruction of the Babylon Station).

Crusade Season 1 2267.
War Zone 1st Jan - 5th Jan 2267.
The Long Road. 27th Feb - 2nd March 2267.
Appearances and Other Deceits. March 2267
The Memory of War. 30th March - 1st April 2267.
Needs of Earth. April 2267.
Racing the Night. May 2267,
Visitors from Down the Street. 13th May - 14th May 2267
Each Night I Dream of Home. May 2267.
The Path of Sorrows. June 2267.
Ruling from the Tomb. 15th June - 16th June 2267.
Patterns of the Soul. June 2267.
The Well of Forever. July 2267. (Joe confirmed that Mr Jones saying Matheson had sensed the emotions of others, was indeed referring to Durkani and Lyssa from Visitors from Down the Street)
Rules of the Game. July 2267
To The Ends of the Earth 1st September - 3rd September 2267 (Full script but unproduced. Dates from the script)
Value Judgements. September 2267 (Full script but unproduced)
End of the Line. December 2267 (Full script but unproduced)

Arc related canon comics [C] and short stories [SS]
In Darkness Find Me. Friday January 6th -Tuesday January 17th 2259 [C]
Treason. Thursday January 19th - Monday January 23rd 2259 [C]
In Harm’s Way/The Price of Peace. Tuesday January 24th 2259 [C]
Shadows Past and Present. February 2259 [C]
In Valen's Name. Sunday February 2nd - Thursday February 6th 2261 [C]
Hidden Agendas. Wednesday January 21st - Thursday January 22nd 2262 [SS]
The Shadow of his Thoughts. Thursday August 20th - Saturday August 29th 2262 [SS]
Genius Loci. Thursday October 15th - Saturday October 18th 2262 [SS]
The Nautilus Coil. 2265 [SS]
True Seeker. November 2269 [SS]
The Lost Tales. 2271 [C]
Space, Time and the Incurable Romantic. 2560 to 2593. [SS]

Canon novels and their chronological ordering within the Babylon 5 universe
Dark Genesis: The Birth of the Psi Corps. 2115 – 2189
Deadly Relations: Bester Ascendant. 2195 – January 2257 (In 2195, this is where Kevin Vacit disappears. His fate is eventually revealed in The Nautilus Coil. There is a cross over with events portrayed on Mars with the Shadow vessel recovery in 2253 witnessed by Sinclair and Garibaldi in Shadows, Past and Present and Dr Kirkish in Messages from Earth, and events recorded in the novel The Shadow Within on Thursday 19th November 2256 with Anna Sheridan asking Terence Hilliard to scan one of the organic artifacts. Ms Donne reports this to Bester after his assassination of Director Johnson and Donne is ordered on the Icarus mission. There is a discrepancy at the end where it suggests the Ironheart incident on Babylon 5 is concurrent with the loss of the Icarus, the events are actually over a year apart)
Final Reckoning: The Fate of Bester. February 2271 – January 2281
The Passing of the Techno-mages:Casting Shadows. 27th November 2258 – January 3rd 2259.
The Passing of the Techno-mages: Summoning Light. 22nd January – 15th February 2259.
The Passing of the Techno-mages: Invoking Darkness 4th August 2260 – 31st January 2261.
The Legions of Fire stories are replete with dates, however they are about a year out to what is established on screen. The dates presented here have been corrected and match with the established calendar. There is also another error in that Minbari cycles are said to be less than Earth years, they aren’t. A Minbari cycle is the equivalent of 16 Earth months.
Legions of Fire:The Long Night of Centauri Prime. 15th August 2262 – 16th December 2266.
Legions of Fire: Armies of Light and Dark. 21st December 2266 – 2272.
Legions of Fire: Out of the Darkness: 2273 – January 2279
The Shadow Within: 19th November 2256 – 8th January 2257 (The Anna Sheridan/Morden/Z’ha’dum plot line is considered canon by Joe, and is referenced in the outlines for the techno-mage trilogy)
To Dream in the City of Sorrows: 6th December 2260 (framing story is 6 days after Neroon beat Marcus) 9th February – 15th December 2259 (Sinclair’s story line. Some story events are concurrent with The Coming of Shadows and All Alone in the Night)

Slight edit to Divided Loyalties

Looney November 7th 17 04:05

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
So how would you suggest watching this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 458106)
The Fall of Night. Monday December 18th 2259. (Start of story)
Comes the Inquisitor. Tuesday December 19th – Wednesday December 20th 2259.
The Fall of Night. Sunday December 24th 2259 (end of story)

At what point in Fall of Night would you break to watch Comes The Inquisitor?

b5historyman November 7th 17 09:03

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
From a story viewing point of view, I wouldn't break off.

One of the things that people seem to miss is there is a lot of "layering" in the stories of the B5 universe.

The best example to illustrate this is, I wouldn't advocate people breaking off part way through Moments of Transition to watch Thridspace. Rather that when watching Moments of Transition that they bear in mind that Thirdspace takes place during that story. And when they are watching Thirdspace that they bear in mind that the events of Moments of Transition take place around this story.

I hope that makes it clearer :)

okesh_naranell November 19th 17 18:31

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Awesome work. :thumbsup: Specifically for Season One, is there any chance of "sharing your working" a little?

Reason I ask, some things in the broadcast and "master list" episode orders for Season One bug me slightly (Delenn's triluminary-building really sticks out for me) so a few years back I tried to come up with a re-watch order which would suit me better.

I'd hoped if I scoured through each episode and picked out enough of the back-references, etc. there would be enough to construct a rock-solid order but (as I'm sure you're aware :)) it was tougher than I thought...

I blew the dust off my notes and below are all the the 'clues' I collected - which were only enough to order about half the episodes - so I'd be interested to see if I missed anything!

- first appearances: obviously a character's first appearance must precede their subsequent appearances/mentions (Franklin, Ko'Dath, Na'Toth, Lennier, Sakai)
- Franklin mentions rumours of anti-alien hate groups in 'Infection', then those groups appear in 'The War Prayer'
- 'Survivors' and 'Legacies' both refer back to the Homeguard from 'The War Prayer'
- Zeta Wing first appear in 'Survivors', then appear in 'A Voice in the Wilderness' and 'Babylon Squared'
- the Raiders are defeated in 'Signs and Portents', so their appearance in 'Believers' must precede it
- in 'Signs and Portents' Sinclair refers to the events of 'And the Sky Full of Stars'
- Delenn receives the triluminary in 'Babylon Squared', then uses it in 'Legacies'
- Delenn has built more of the chrysalis device in 'Signs and Portents' than she had in 'Legacies'
- 'Legacies' refers back to 'Mind War' (Jason Ironheart)
- 'EYES' has lots of back-references to 'Mind War' (Bester), 'Survivors' (sabotage), 'By Any Means Necessary' (strike), 'Deathwalker', 'The War Prayer' (Shaal Mayan), 'Born to the Purple' (Garibaldi's offer of a drink to Ivanova)
- 'TKO' refers back to 'Born to the Purple' (Ivanova's father)


Thanks

KoshFan November 21st 17 02:02

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
I, too, am interested in the ordering of Season 1 -- placing "Signs and Portents" so late surprises the heck out of me.

okesh_naranell November 21st 17 21:18

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Just to caveat: of course everyone's entitled to their own rewatch episode order - some might prioritise plot continuity, others character development, episode pacing, jms' original intention, or just nostalgia! :) This is just my two cents...

My rationale (which I think is the same as b5historyman's) for 'Signs and Portents' coming quite late is based on the below "prop continuity":
- Delenn is given the triluminary in 'Babylon Squared'
- Delenn's "agents" use the triluminary in 'Legacies'
- the chrysalis device is 1/3rd built in 'Legacies'
- the device is 2/3rds built in 'Signs and Portents'

Based on this the order goes 'Babylon', 'Legacies', 'Signs'. Since other factors place 'Babylon' quite late in the season, this means 'Signs' ends up even later.

It does seem strange when one's used to 'Signs' position as an almost out-of-nowhere glimpse of the broader story, which then recedes before resurfacing at the season finale - however I think it can also work as a near-season end "mini-climax" (similar to 'The Long, Twilight Struggle' or 'Shadow Dancing') by tying up the season's Raiders storyline with a big space battle!

But for me the most compelling argument to place 'Signs' after 'Babylon' is to strengthen Delenn's late-Season One character arc. This is one of my favourite parts of Season One because it's all but invisible on first viewing, with the sub-text only evident on re-watching.

With the above order, Delenn's story goes:
- standing before a Grey Council skeptical of the Shadows' return, Delenn asks to remain on Babylon 5, with only the self-belief instilled in her by Dukhat to drive her
- her fellow Councillor (who I always head-canon to be Jenimer btw) gives her the triluminary as a coded endorsement and signal that he believes she is the one prophesied to undergo the change promise by Valen
- Delenn begins building the device, in the meantime using the triluminary in obtaining Branmer's body
- as she continues to build the device, Delenn is visited by Morden. Sensing the presence of his companions, she realises: "they're here"
- fueled by her recent encounter, she sends Lennier to Kosh with the question "Have the Shadows returned to Z'ha'dum?". Kosh responds "Yes."
- knowing the fatal risk she could be taking, Delenn goes to Kosh to voice her last doubts. Remembering the advice of her mentor, Delenn looks into the face of a Vorlon and her doubts are removed. She completes the device and enters the chrysalis

If 'Signs' comes before 'Babylon', as well as the inconsistency of the chrysalis device-building, it seems odd to me that her recent encounter with what she strongly believed to be a Shadow agent wouldn't be part of the discussion over whether or not Valen's prophecy is at hand. With the above ordering Delenn has already been shunned by the Grey Council and is left alone to wrestle with the implications of Morden's visit and whether she has the strength to do what must be done...

I won't pretend there isn't a bit ret-conning/"head canon" going on here, so of course it's possible to "head-canon" these things the other way - perhaps the changing state of the chrysalis device indicates Delenn had previous bouts of doubt and she constructed, then deconstructed, then reconstructed it... As I said earlier, it's just a question of which elements you want to prioritise for your own ideal viewing experience... :)

Looney November 21st 17 21:36

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
WOW! Thanks so much for chiming in okesh_naranell. :thumbsup:


Well I think this is HUGELY important. I want to introduce a newbie to the show and the more consistent every little detail can be tied together the better. He was a toddler at the time the show was on, so his experience of television is vastly different than my own. The reason I want to show him the show in this order is not only trying to create as much consistency as possible, but also so I can come to this list and show him the dates. :)

Having said all of this I have a doubt. As we all know it is nearly impossible to pick up on EVERY little detail the first time around. This makes me think that maybe I should show him the show in an order closer to the original air date order the first time around. I know he is likely going to like the show and if he watches it a second time in this order it might be like seeing it for the first time all over again. I don't know. That is probably how I would have done it the second time around if I had this list when I did it. ;)

KoshFan November 24th 17 06:54

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
That's quite the breakdown, okesh. I hadn't noticed that the Chrysalis device is 2/3 built in "Signs" vs. only 1/3 in a later ep. And you're right, re-ordering it to have Morden be a part of her decision-making process is an improvement...

I think my only objection is that "Signs" is such a teaser episode, hinting at so much to come, that I like it arriving a little earlier to get people's attention!

Looney November 24th 17 13:35

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 459838)

I think my only objection is that "Signs" is such a teaser episode, hinting at so much to come, that I like it arriving a little earlier to get people's attention!

I can see that. It definitely makes viewers pay attention to the fact that the episode might be important down the road.

b5historyman November 28th 17 12:05

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 459801)
I, too, am interested in the ordering of Season 1 -- placing "Signs and Portents" so late surprises the heck out of me.

Bearing in mind I did all the ground work over 20 years ago, I'll do my best.

Much of the dating from Season One was worked out on the dialogue and visual clues in the episodes. For example "And the Sky, Full of Stars" we get the information from Knight 2 about Sinclair being 39 born in May 2218. So this was placed before his birthday. Also Garibaldi was reading Universe Today that had an article about Shaal Mayan accorded honours so that puts it after "The War Prayer". "Soul Hunter" was dated from Franklin's framed order you see in "Interludes and Examinations" so that gave me a date for the "Soul Hunter" story. "Infection" I placed after that. There's a scene scripted in "And the Sky, Full of Stars" where Knight 2 makes Sinclair relive his confrontation with the Ikarran war machine, saying it was last month so that places that story in March and "And the Sky.." in April.

The placement of "Born to the Purple" comes from Garibaldi's comments in "Infection" about Security being arranged for next Tuesday for the Narn/Centauri negotiations (The Euphrates treaty) which Londo as we learned in Born to the Purple he had been ducking for a week, presumably because of Adira.

"A Voice in the Wilderness" was the last story where you see Delenn's quarters without the Chrysalis device, the table she builds it on is empty. "Babylon Squared" Joe confirmed that she got the Triluminary and the Chrysalis Device on her visit to the Grey Council Cruiser and brought it back to B5. She started building it so Legacies, Grail and Signs and Portents (which had an on air date) are ordered on the basis of what stage she was at building it.

Hope this gives you a little insight. As I said it's been over 20 years :)

KoshFan November 29th 17 02:57

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
All very logical! Thank you.

b5historyman November 29th 17 11:52

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by okesh_naranell (Post 459809)
Just to caveat: of course everyone's entitled to their own rewatch episode order - some might prioritise plot continuity, others character development, episode pacing, jms' original intention, or just nostalgia! :) This is just my two cents...

My rationale (which I think is the same as b5historyman's) for 'Signs and Portents' coming quite late is based on the below "prop continuity":
- Delenn is given the triluminary in 'Babylon Squared'
- Delenn's "agents" use the triluminary in 'Legacies'
- the chrysalis device is 1/3rd built in 'Legacies'
- the device is 2/3rds built in 'Signs and Portents'

Based on this the order goes 'Babylon', 'Legacies', 'Signs'. Since other factors place 'Babylon' quite late in the season, this means 'Signs' ends up even later.

It does seem strange when one's used to 'Signs' position as an almost out-of-nowhere glimpse of the broader story, which then recedes before resurfacing at the season finale - however I think it can also work as a near-season end "mini-climax" (similar to 'The Long, Twilight Struggle' or 'Shadow Dancing') by tying up the season's Raiders storyline with a big space battle!

But for me the most compelling argument to place 'Signs' after 'Babylon' is to strengthen Delenn's late-Season One character arc. This is one of my favourite parts of Season One because it's all but invisible on first viewing, with the sub-text only evident on re-watching.

With the above order, Delenn's story goes:
- standing before a Grey Council skeptical of the Shadows' return, Delenn asks to remain on Babylon 5, with only the self-belief instilled in her by Dukhat to drive her
- her fellow Councillor (who I always head-canon to be Jenimer btw) gives her the triluminary as a coded endorsement and signal that he believes she is the one prophesied to undergo the change promise by Valen
- Delenn begins building the device, in the meantime using the triluminary in obtaining Branmer's body
- as she continues to build the device, Delenn is visited by Morden. Sensing the presence of his companions, she realises: "they're here"
- fueled by her recent encounter, she sends Lennier to Kosh with the question "Have the Shadows returned to Z'ha'dum?". Kosh responds "Yes."
- knowing the fatal risk she could be taking, Delenn goes to Kosh to voice her last doubts. Remembering the advice of her mentor, Delenn looks into the face of a Vorlon and her doubts are removed. She completes the device and enters the chrysalis

If 'Signs' comes before 'Babylon', as well as the inconsistency of the chrysalis device-building, it seems odd to me that her recent encounter with what she strongly believed to be a Shadow agent wouldn't be part of the discussion over whether or not Valen's prophecy is at hand. With the above ordering Delenn has already been shunned by the Grey Council and is left alone to wrestle with the implications of Morden's visit and whether she has the strength to do what must be done...

I won't pretend there isn't a bit ret-conning/"head canon" going on here, so of course it's possible to "head-canon" these things the other way - perhaps the changing state of the chrysalis device indicates Delenn had previous bouts of doubt and she constructed, then deconstructed, then reconstructed it... As I said earlier, it's just a question of which elements you want to prioritise for your own ideal viewing experience... :)

Pretty much as I saw it :thumbsup: Joe authorised it and he posted on the matter, which I copied at the top of the thread.

Looney May 31st 18 22:49

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
With the impending arrival of B5 on Amazon Prime I have started watching the show in the "Approved Chronological Viewing Order". I just finished MIND WAR, 1.6, in this chronological order and I have to say I am really enjoying it so far. Maybe it is just because it is a new way to view it, but I like how some things have come together. I like having Bester introduced after AND THE SKY FULL OF STARS, 1.8. It really drives it home when Sinclair says he doesn't want people messing with his head. Plus I think it also makes you question if Knight One and Knight Two were connected to Psi Corps or Home Guard. Plus pushing MIND WAR, 1.6, two episodes further in gives us more time thinking G'Kar is a bad guy. His assistance to Catherine Sakai, even after she rejected it, is a real first step for the audience to see he isn't only about serving his own agenda.

Plus I feel like introducing Bester a little later gives a new twist. Having Bester introduced after the events of 1.4 INFECTION, 1.7 WAR PRAYER, and 1.8 AND THE SKY FULL OF STARS makes more sense to me. These episodes all present possible threats that could come from Earth and Bester, along with Psi Corps, end up being the greatest of those threats.

So I am really looking forward to more things fitting together in ways I haven't seen before. ;)

Looney June 4th 18 14:48

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Okay just got to A Voice in The Wilderness and everything is going great. This order is really putting a new dynamic on everything. I love it. ;)

b5historyman June 14th 18 15:19

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Glad you're enjoying it in the correct order :)

Looney June 16th 18 20:12

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Okay, I have slowed down a little bit, but I just finished Eyes, 1.16. I have to say that knowing where the story is headed I really feel putting this episode a little closer to the end of the season puts a bit more spin on Sinclair leaving and Sheridan coming into replace him. I almost wish Sheridan would turn out to be dirty. LOL :guffaw:

I REALLY wish Harriman Gray had returned, and not just because I love Jeffrey Combs. I think having a Psi Corps character who is possibly more devoted to Earth Force than the Psi Corps is a VERY interesting dynamic that would have been an excellent avenue to explore.

So as I will likely say many more times, this watch order is REALLY paying off IMHO. It is weird, but I feel like this watch order is steadily increasing the tension over all the episodes with more of a snowball effect than the original episode order. Having Signs and Portents, 1.13, a bit later in the season really helps give it that effect.

Looney June 21st 18 04:11

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Finished Chrysalis, "Nothing's the same anymore." I think this is the way I will watch Season One from now on. :thumbsup:

Got through Points of Departure 2.1. Can't wait to see what the changes do for Season 2.

;)

b5historyman June 21st 18 10:56

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Looney (Post 460772)
Okay, I have slowed down a little bit, but I just finished Eyes, 1.16. I have to say that knowing where the story is headed I really feel putting this episode a little closer to the end of the season puts a bit more spin on Sinclair leaving and Sheridan coming into replace him. I almost wish Sheridan would turn out to be dirty. LOL :guffaw:

I REALLY wish Harriman Gray had returned, and not just because I love Jeffrey Combs. I think having a Psi Corps character who is possibly more devoted to Earth Force than the Psi Corps is a VERY interesting dynamic that would have been an excellent avenue to explore.

So as I will likely say many more times, this watch order is REALLY paying off IMHO. It is weird, but I feel like this watch order is steadily increasing the tension over all the episodes with more of a snowball effect than the original episode order. Having Signs and Portents, 1.13, a bit later in the season really helps give it that effect.

I'd like to think that Harriman did get to join EarthForce after the Corps was disbanded.

Looney June 29th 18 03:03

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 460787)

I'd like to think that Harriman did get to join EarthForce after the Corps was disbanded.

Yes that is a pleasant way to envision his future. He is definitely a guest star with an expanded universe story I would love to see, but then again I feel that way about almost every guest star. :lol:

So I just watched A Race Through Dark Places, 2.8 followed by Soul Mates, 2.7 and I have to say I really like this dynamic shift for Talia. I know A Race Through Dark Places is perhaps a larger scope story for her so having the smaller B plot for Soul Mates come first seems more logical, but I think this way works better. First she finds out about Psi Corps then she deals with the possibility of a way out. Plus it puts a FAR more sinister twist into why Stoner shows up on B5. It tells the audience that maybe Bester didn't entirely believer her when he left at the end of A Race Through Dark Places, so maybe he suggested it would be to Stoner's advantage to go to B5 and check things out. It just gels together very well. :thumbsup:

b5historyman June 29th 18 14:55

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Looney (Post 460831)
Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 460787)

I'd like to think that Harriman did get to join EarthForce after the Corps was disbanded.

Yes that is a pleasant way to envision his future. He is definitely a guest star with an expanded universe story I would love to see, but then again I feel that way about almost every guest star. :lol:

So I just watched A Race Through Dark Places, 2.8 followed by Soul Mates, 2.7 and I have to say I really like this dynamic shift for Talia. I know A Race Through Dark Places is perhaps a larger scope story for her so having the smaller B plot for Soul Mates come first seems more logical, but I think this way works better. First she finds out about Psi Corps then she deals with the possibility of a way out. Plus it puts a FAR more sinister twist into why Stoner shows up on B5. It tells the audience that maybe Bester didn't entirely believer her when he left at the end of A Race Through Dark Places, so maybe he suggested it would be to Stoner's advantage to go to B5 and check things out. It just gels together very well. :thumbsup:

Always nice to see people picking up on these little things, shows they are really watching the show :)

Karajorma August 9th 18 09:29

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
The order for The Day of the Dead doesn't seem to be right. Lockley casually mentions the basis of her relationship with Sheridan and then right afterwards in Learning Curve that relationship gets mentioned as a mystery which is then explained in Strange Relations.


I can't see any reason why Day of the Dead should be so early in the list if it ruins that mystery. I know it's in the wrong place on the DVDs, but I would only move it forward one episode, so that it comes before Secrets of the Soul, not after it.

b5historyman August 10th 18 14:52

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karajorma (Post 461095)
The order for The Day of the Dead doesn't seem to be right. Lockley casually mentions the basis of her relationship with Sheridan and then right afterwards in Learning Curve that relationship gets mentioned as a mystery which is then explained in Strange Relations.


I can't see any reason why Day of the Dead should be so early in the list if it ruins that mystery. I know it's in the wrong place on the DVDs, but I would only move it forward one episode, so that it comes before Secrets of the Soul, not after it.

It's in the right place. Lochley talks to Zoe about him, we as viewers know about it. No one else knows at this point.

Karajorma August 11th 18 10:53

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
[QUOTE=b5historyman;461098]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karajorma (Post 461095)
It's in the right place. Lochley talks to Zoe about him, we as viewers know about it. No one else knows at this point.

It really doesn't seem right. It's just "I got married, to that Sheridan guy" and then carried on with the episode. The revelation that two main characters were previously married just comes completely out of nowhere and then wanders back there again without any further reference to it.


And then only in the next episode do we even get a hint that Sheridan didn't tell Delenn and that this is something we should care about in the slightest.


Is there any reason why Day of the Dead has to come before Learning Curve? Cause I can't see one and it seems really odd for it to be there.

b5historyman August 12th 18 12:04

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
[QUOTE=Karajorma;461099]
Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 461098)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karajorma (Post 461095)
It's in the right place. Lochley talks to Zoe about him, we as viewers know about it. No one else knows at this point.

It really doesn't seem right. It's just "I got married, to that Sheridan guy" and then carried on with the episode. The revelation that two main characters were previously married just comes completely out of nowhere and then wanders back there again without any further reference to it.


And then only in the next episode do we even get a hint that Sheridan didn't tell Delenn and that this is something we should care about in the slightest.


Is there any reason why Day of the Dead has to come before Learning Curve? Cause I can't see one and it seems really odd for it to be there.

We as viewers have the foreknowledge, the characters don't. So it doesn't feel right to you, not my problem to be blunt. You watch it how you want to, this is the correct viewing order I busted my balls researching and it was given the authorisation of Joe himself. It isn't going to magically change place.

Karajorma August 13th 18 20:49

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 461100)
We as viewers have the foreknowledge, the characters don't. So it doesn't feel right to you, not my problem to be blunt. You watch it how you want to, this is the correct viewing order I busted my balls researching and it was given the authorisation of Joe himself. It isn't going to magically change place.


I asked if there is any in universe reason why the episodes are in that order. When you moved the stuff around in Season 1, the building of the chrysalis was obvious proof that the episodes were out of order. I couldn't see any similar evidence that explains why Day of the Dead needs to jump so far forwards and I can see lots of evidence against it. I assumed you had seen something I missed and would be willing to explain, if you're not, fine.

okesh_naranell August 13th 18 22:55

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
"Day of the Dead" is a tricky one for me - I struggle to find a perfect place to watch it to completely satisfy both continuity and story development (makes me think of the insoluble problem of ordering the episodes of Crusade...:eek:) which is probably a by-product of jms not writing the script himself.

These are the jigsaw pieces I've found:

- In "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari" Lennier leaves to join the Rangers, so it must come after that.

- In "Mediations on the Abyss" Delenn refers back to Lennier's visit during DotD so it must come before that.

- Londo & G'Kar appear in DotD, so it must come either side of their trip to Centauri Prime which runs from them leaving in "Strange Relations" through to their return in "The Ragged Edge".

- Also since the first scene of "Strange Relations" is the morning after the last scene of "Learning Curve", DotD actually must come either before "Learning Curve", or after "The Ragged Edge".

- At the end of DotD, Lochley mentions Garibaldi wants to blame the night's disruption on "the telepaths". If you take this as a reference to the telepaths living in DownBelow then this means DotD must come before "Phoenix Rising", which puts it at the earlier end of the possible range, i.e. between "Night of Londo Mollari" and "Learning Curve".

However I also find this a bit... disjointed from a storytelling point of view: as you mention it "spoils" the reveal of Lochley and Sheridan's previous marriage - the way "Learning Curve" and "Strange Relations" are written it does feel to me like it was "the intent of the author" that the audience should learn about it along with Garibaldi... Also when Turval updates Delenn on Lennier's training in "Learning Curve", it feels to me like this is the first she's heard from or about him since he left...

My guess is when jms gave Neil Gaiman the background for Season 5 (which was presumably some time before jms actually started writing most of it) he might have intended DotD to go somewhere after the Lochley/Sheridan revelation, but before the climax of the Byron story - which is of course where it originally (but incongruously) aired: after "Secrets of the Soul".

But unfortunately the way Season 5 actually turned out, with G'Kar & Londo off-station and so many of the episodes flowing directly from one into the next, there just isn't an entirely satisfying place to put it... :(

As I've said earlier in this thread, everyone's entitled to their own re-watch order :) but for me the story wrinkles beat the implication of the "telepaths" line, so I re-watch DotD after "Ragged Edge" - waving my hands a bit to imagine that Garibaldi is looking to blame "the telepaths" in general, rather than Byron's telepaths specifically...

okesh_naranell August 13th 18 23:27

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quick addendum: I just had a look at the scene of Londo & G'Kar "leaving" at the end of "Strange Relations" - even though Delenn says "have a good flight" and the tone of the scene is clearing imply they're leaving immediately, you could tilt your head and squint a bit and imagine they aren't actually leaving for a few more days - which would leave enough room for "Day of the Dead" to come after "Strange Relations".... as I said no completely satisfying answers for me, just depends where you want to compromise :(

Jan August 14th 18 02:08

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karajorma (Post 461101)
Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 461100)
We as viewers have the foreknowledge, the characters don't. So it doesn't feel right to you, not my problem to be blunt. You watch it how you want to, this is the correct viewing order I busted my balls researching and it was given the authorisation of Joe himself. It isn't going to magically change place.


I asked if there is any in universe reason why the episodes are in that order. When you moved the stuff around in Season 1, the building of the chrysalis was obvious proof that the episodes were out of order. I couldn't see any similar evidence that explains why Day of the Dead needs to jump so far forwards and I can see lots of evidence against it. I assumed you had seen something I missed and would be willing to explain, if you're not, fine.

Don't worry about Terry. He gets rude if anybody dares to question his nonexistant authority. He sometimes forgets that 'authorized' isn't the same as 'official'.

Jan

b5historyman August 14th 18 08:23

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 461106)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karajorma (Post 461101)
Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 461100)
We as viewers have the foreknowledge, the characters don't. So it doesn't feel right to you, not my problem to be blunt. You watch it how you want to, this is the correct viewing order I busted my balls researching and it was given the authorisation of Joe himself. It isn't going to magically change place.


I asked if there is any in universe reason why the episodes are in that order. When you moved the stuff around in Season 1, the building of the chrysalis was obvious proof that the episodes were out of order. I couldn't see any similar evidence that explains why Day of the Dead needs to jump so far forwards and I can see lots of evidence against it. I assumed you had seen something I missed and would be willing to explain, if you're not, fine.

Don't worry about Terry. He gets rude if anybody dares to question his nonexistant authority. He sometimes forgets that 'authorized' isn't the same as 'official'.

Jan

Jan If you bother to read the comment instead of belittling me I pointed out the poster could watch it how they wanted it.

As for my "non existent authority" I never claimed I had it.There's no fan hierarchy as you point out. I'm certainly not a celebrity fan nor do I claim to be.

"He sometimes forgets that 'authorized' isn't the same as 'official'."

Sorry in my book if it's authorised, it's official.

authorise
verb [ T ] uk usually authorise UK ​ /ˈɔː.θər.aɪz/ US ​ /ˈɑː.θɚ.aɪz/

C1 to give official permission for something to happen, or to give someone official permission to do something:

Karajorma August 14th 18 10:38

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by okesh_naranell (Post 461102)
"Day of the Dead" is a tricky one for me - I struggle to find a perfect place to watch it to completely satisfy both continuity and story development (makes me think of the insoluble problem of ordering the episodes of Crusade...:eek:) which is probably a by-product of jms not writing the script himself.These are the jigsaw pieces I've found:


- In "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari" Lennier leaves to join the Rangers, so it must come after that.

- In "Mediations on the Abyss" Delenn refers back to Lennier's visit during DotD so it must come before that.

- Londo & G'Kar appear in DotD, so it must come either side of their trip to Centauri Prime which runs from them leaving in "Strange Relations" through to their return in "The Ragged Edge".

- Also since the first scene of "Strange Relations" is the morning after the last scene of "Learning Curve", DotD actually must come either before "Learning Curve", or after "The Ragged Edge".

- At the end of DotD, Lochley mentions Garibaldi wants to blame the night's disruption on "the telepaths". If you take this as a reference to the telepaths living in DownBelow then this means DotD must come before "Phoenix Rising", which puts it at the earlier end of the possible range, i.e. between "Night of Londo Mollari" and "Learning Curve".


A couple of others.



Lennier has been gone from the station long enough to be sent to train in deep space and reach a break between training cycles. That suggests he's been gone a while.



In Learning Curve, Lockley says that she never thought she'd meet a second person as annoying as herself. Presumably the first is Sheridan, a hint Sheridan and Lockley know each other. If we know they were married the scene means something else so it's not really evidence either way.



Quote:


As I've said earlier in this thread, everyone's entitled to their own re-watch order :) but for me the story wrinkles beat the implication of the "telepaths" line, so I re-watch DotD after "Ragged Edge" - waving my hands a bit to imagine that Garibaldi is looking to blame "the telepaths" in general, rather than Byron's telepaths specifically...

Yep, that's where I'd put it too. Putting it as early as it is on this list also has problems with Garibaldi blaming telepaths as Byron and his group hadn't done anything to Garibaldi yet.



To be honest, I don't find it much of a stretch to think of Garibaldi blaming "the telepaths" and just meaning all of them. He's basically doing the same as blaming "the Jews" or "the gays" or whatever. And from the sound of it Lockley's gotten sick of hearing it too. That doesn't sound like the same Garibaldi that has just recommended bringing in telepaths to gather intelligence for them or who is briefing telepaths on the job he wants them to do for the alliance in the next episode. But it does sound a lot like him mid-season where he's on the slide after finding out he can't kill Bester.



If you don't like that explanation, move it back one more episode and it's after The Corps is mother, the Corps is father. In which case he's referring to Bester and the teeps who came on board with him. That puts it a little close to Meditations though.

Jan August 14th 18 11:14

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 461107)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 461106)
Don't worry about Terry. He gets rude if anybody dares to question his nonexistant authority. He sometimes forgets that 'authorized' isn't the same as 'official'.

Jan

Jan If you bother to read the comment instead of belittling me I pointed out the poster could watch it how they wanted it.

As for my "non existent authority" I never claimed I had it.There's no fan hierarchy as you point out. I'm certainly not a celebrity fan nor do I claim to be.

"He sometimes forgets that 'authorized' isn't the same as 'official'."

Sorry in my book if it's authorised, it's official.

authorise
verb [ T ] uk usually authorise UK ​ /ˈɔː.θər.aɪz/ US ​ /ˈɑː.θɚ.aɪz/

C1 to give official permission for something to happen, or to give someone official permission to do something:

You both ignored my point: that you were rude - and made my point: that you had *permission*. Permission doesn't make the finished product automatically accepted as definitve regardless of how many balls you worked off.. Don't get me wrong, the timeline is great and the viewing order gets a lot of compliments. But you do tend to throw that in people's faces.

b5historyman August 14th 18 13:28

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karajorma (Post 461101)
Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 461100)
We as viewers have the foreknowledge, the characters don't. So it doesn't feel right to you, not my problem to be blunt. You watch it how you want to, this is the correct viewing order I busted my balls researching and it was given the authorisation of Joe himself. It isn't going to magically change place.


I asked if there is any in universe reason why the episodes are in that order. When you moved the stuff around in Season 1, the building of the chrysalis was obvious proof that the episodes were out of order. I couldn't see any similar evidence that explains why Day of the Dead needs to jump so far forwards and I can see lots of evidence against it. I assumed you had seen something I missed and would be willing to explain, if you're not, fine.

For your information, the point I was making about the viewer knowledge opposed to the character knowledge.

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1...ridan%20viewer

Looney August 14th 18 15:16

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
There IS a fan "hierarchy" and I claim EMPEROR SUPREME BEFORE ALL OTHERS!!!!! :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw:

Okay now that everyone knows their place :lol: :rolleyes: it is time for Looney to weigh in.

Of course I can't really weigh in because I am nowhere near DAY OF THE DEAD in b5historyman's Chronological Order. What I will say is watch your wording people!!!!! This is friendly space.

b5historyman you have created a way to watch Babylon 5. Most people whom have never seen the show are not likely going to watch it in the order you prescribe, but you have given those who fall in love with the show different way to experience that joy all over again. Because of this you should choose your words carefully when answering questions from those whom have different perspectives on how things work. Never forget those questions are likely coming from people who love something you love almost as much as you do. And also never forget that for all of your efforts the most you can ever hope to gain is admiration like the words I just wrote to you. That is it. Appreciation from some, but your viewing order will never gain acceptance by all. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way for the simplest reason of all, Babylon 5 did not originally appear in that order. I know you might feel like you are forever defending your work, but I'm saying you don't have to. I think you kind of know this already because I've never read you say that this is the only way people should watch the show, but remember when your efforts are questioned they are still recognized as efforts so don't get overly defensive. Some might say you are wrong, but the reality is your order can't be wrong because you are simply providing a well researched alternative. People are going to choose how they want to watch Babylon 5 and there is little anyone, including JMS, can do about it. He could come out today and say that anyone not watching Babylon 5 in the order you established is watching it wrong and people would still watch it in the order it aired or however they want. There is only one truly wrong way to watch Babylon 5 . . . backwards. :guffaw:

So Jan, is it safe to assume you have had go-rounds with b5historyman in the past? I think it is pretty evident. So do you agree with what I said to b5historyman above? Do you think maybe I said it a little nicer than immediately calling b5historyman rude and then saying b5historyman throws things in people's faces? And I won't even get into the "balls" discussion, on or off. :guffaw:

And full disclosure, I do agree that b5historyman's wording did sound a bit "rude." I can't speak to claims or authority and what not, but I will point out that Jan's words were "belittling". I think the debate is perfectly fine. I just think everyone needs to write more carefully to avoid their words sounding "rude" or "belittling".

Now please feel free to come at me with everything you've got!!!!! ::p ;)


P.S. I will also say that b5historyman's point about Character Knowledge vs Viewer Knowledge has always been an interesting point for me. Especially when it comes to Babylon 5.

KoshFan August 14th 18 15:18

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
I've stayed out of this, because I haven't seen these eps in a long, long time (and in the case of "Day of the Dead," never -- I never got around to buying the S5 DVDs). But I see well-intentioned folks arguing in a usually very polite place, so I'll wade in. Here's what I've seen so far:

Karajorama: Hey, I have Reason X for not putting Day of the Dead there. Can you tell me Reason Y or Z for why you did?

b5historyman: Reason X is explained away this way.

Karajorama: Okay, but I'm still looking for Y or Z.

To put it another way:

There are pushes and pulls, right? A pull is a reason to put an ep in a particular place, a push is a reason to have it be elsewhere. Karajorama said, "I see a push. Could you explain the pulls?" And b5historyman said, "That push isn't actually a push." Well, let's assume for a moment that b5historyman is right and Karajorama is wrong about that. But the question was about the pulls. What was the reasoning for putting "Day of the Dead" where it is? That's what Karajorama was asking.

b5historyman, if you aren't willing to tell us what the pulls are, then it's going to sound awfully like your reason is "Because I said so." Even if you did all the research and in fact have Reasons Y, Z, Q, and 5, if you won't tell people what they are (and instead say "Do whatever you want, but I'm still right and you're still wrong"), you sound like an arrogant arbiter. You can understand why that might make people a little pissed off.

But I'm guessing you actually do have reasons for "Day of the Dead"'s placement. I'd like to know what they are, so Karajorama finally gets an answer. If you don't have time to explain those reasons right now, totally understandable, but say so.

Looney August 14th 18 15:31

Re: JMS approved Chronological viewing order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 461112)
I've stayed out of this, because I haven't seen these eps in a long, long time (and in the case of "Day of the Dead," never -- I never got around to buying the S5 DVDs). But I see well-intentioned folks arguing in a usually very polite place, so I'll wade in. Here's what I've seen so far:

Karajorama: Hey, I have Reason X for not putting Day of the Dead there. Can you tell me Reason Y or Z for why you did?

b5historyman: Reason X is explained away this way.

Karajorama: Okay, but I'm still looking for Y or Z.

To put it another way:

There are pushes and pulls, right? A pull is a reason to put an ep in a particular place, a push is a reason to have it be elsewhere. Karajorama said, "I see a push. Could you explain the pulls?" And b5historyman said, "That push isn't actually a push." Well, let's assume for a moment that b5historyman is right and Karajorama is wrong about that. But the question was about the pulls. What was the reasoning for putting "Day of the Dead" where it is? That's what Karajorama was asking.

b5historyman, if you aren't willing to tell us what the pulls are, then it's going to sound awfully like your reason is "Because I said so." Even if you did all the research and in fact have Reasons Y, Z, Q, and 5, if you won't tell people what they are (and instead say "Do whatever you want, but I'm still right and you're still wrong"), you sound like an arrogant arbiter. You can understand why that might make people a little pissed off.

But I'm guessing you actually do have reasons for "Day of the Dead"'s placement. I'd like to know what they are, so Karajorama finally gets an answer. If you don't have time to explain those reasons right now, totally understandable, but say so.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! :guffaw: :lol: :guffaw: :lol: :guffaw:

I JUST pointed out that b5historyman shouldn't overly react in a defensive manner to questions about the viewing order and within moments KoshFan requests that b5historyman DEFEND the question about the viewing order.

WHAT A WORLD!!!!! :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw:

But seriously I love that this is generating discussion. Let's all choose teams. I am going to pick Jan and b5historyman. Teamwork is what we need. I just know it. :guffaw:

It is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sad how much fun I am having. I am truly a ridiculous person. :wtf: :rolleyes: :lol:


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